DVDizzy Forum

A former imam who converted to Christianity is facing extradition from Sweden to his native Iraq, where he may face imprisonment or death for his "apostasy" from Islam. According to an article at Dagen.se (translated by Google):

A former imam, who lives in Karlskoga and who converted to Christianity must be deported to Iraq, the Administrative Court of Appeal has decided.

Bengt Sjoberg, local politician from Filipstad and heavily involved in refugee issues, said that the former Imam [had] been baptized in the Baptist church in Karlskoga and openly share[d] [his] faith with others. “This is absolutely horrible. This is a genuine conversion and many of us can testify that there is a man who lives as a Christian.”

Given the latitude which has been shown by Western nations for generations in extending protection to individuals claiming sanctuary from the tyranny which would confront them at home, the decision of Swedish authorities to deport a man whose conversion would make him a target seems reckless. The bloody persecution which has been inflicted on the Church in Iraq in the past few years has driven much of the Christian remnant out of the country; even the homes of Christians in Baghdad were subjected to Jihadist attacks this past Christmas.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-mai ... nvert-imam

That's incredible. Being sent back to Iraq is a death sentence for sure. Some other nation where religious freedom is practiced should take him.

Wow this is just horrible, why on earth are they deporting him though ?

My country has been deporting Iraqi's back home, too, and a few hundred Afghan girls who have practically grown up here have to be deported back with their families to Afghanistan as well. Just a few days ago, an Iranian asylum-seeker lit himself on fire in the middle of Amsterdam, screaming something about his children. He died of his injuries. The man was supposed to be send back to Iran with his children.

^ Oh wow, that's absolutely horrid. Any word on what will happen to his children?

Scarred4life wrote:^ Oh wow, that's absolutely horrid. Any word on what will happen to his children?

No, nothing is known about that.

This friday, our minister of asylum affairs (yes, we even have a special minister for this) decided that a 14 year old Afghan girl named Sahar, and her family, could stay in The Netherlands. She had been in the news a lot, because her classmates and friends had sought the attention of the media, to call attention to her plight. She has been her since she was 4 years old, her parent fled from Afghanistan after the war started in 2011. She doesn't speak any Afghan/Arabic, only perfect Dutch; she doesn't wear a headscarve; and she's studying real hard. Yet, initially, our goverment wanted to send her back. For 10 years, her family has started procedure after procedure in court to try to stay here (a possibility the Dutch law provides, but which has painted them as freeloaders to the hard-right). Only this friday the minister finally decided to cave and give in.

You won't believe how glad and relieved and happy I was for this girl and her family, whom I've never met or even seen in person. I just kept thinking about that picture on the cover of 'Time', of the Afghan girl whose nose was cut of --surely, you must know that picture. It was first said it was the work of the Taliban, but then it turned out it was her own family who had done it. But to me, that was beside the point. I've read of so many reports of Afghan women who had acid thrown in their faces, just for not wearing a burqua. So imagine what they had done to the completely westernized Sahar, had she gone back! I had promised myself that, had she been send back, I would place a bomb under his ministry. Of course, I was partly joking, but I would have wanted to do something against this extreme right-wing government we have (since novermber 2010).

The minister has said 40 to 100 similar families/persons would be allowed to stay in The Netherlands, but there are about 400 similar girls living here. That would mean only a fourth, maximally, would be allowed to stay here, and the rest will be send back to Afghanistan. All the while we as a country are sending instructors to that country to train their police to stand up for themselves. But the extreme right-wing party that's supporting our minority government was against it, because they thought Afghanistan was too unsafe to send Dutch police-trainers. Yet they are the one who are pushing the minister to not give asylum to any more people from Afghanistan. They said they were proud to have "limited" the number of people who could stay here. I puked then I heard that.

They're the third-largest party in the country and they hold the most power because their parliamentary backing of our minority government can make or break them.

Goliath wrote:But the extreme right-wing party that's supporting our minority government was against it, because they thought Afghanistan was too unsafe to send Dutch police-trainers. Yet they are the one who are pushing the minister to not give asylum to any more people from Afghanistan. They said they were proud to have "limited" the number of people who could stay here. I puked then I heard that.

Oh, that is so sick. Oh my god, that is one of the most revolting things I have ever heard. I cannot believe that someone could actually say this, let alone mean it. And with the knowledge that these people will almost certainly be killed.... They sound like they want to purge their precious country of these people. Oh, it's just so wrong. Excuse me while I go buy a plane ticket and load up my machine gun.

Scarred4life wrote:Oh, that is so sick. Oh my god, that is one of the most revolting things I have ever heard. I cannot believe that someone could actually say this, let alone mean it. And with the knowledge that these people will almost certainly be killed.... They sound like they want to purge their precious country of these people. Oh, it's just so wrong.

That's not all. During a debate in parliament last year, when the former minister of immigration/asylum-affairs said Iraqi refugees would no longer automatically be granted permission to stay in our country (as had been policy since the start of the violent insurgencies in Iraq), and that Iraqi refugees would be send back to places where car bombings are still a part of daily life... the politicians of this extremist party started to clap and drum on their desks as a sign of approval.

Unfortunately, this kind of behavior and ideas have rapidly become accepted as 'normal' in The Netherlands over the last few years. The party's leader, Geert Wilders (a friend of neo-conservative anti-gay christian-fundamentalists in the US) is however standing trial for some of his remarks against muslims. In The Netherlands, incitement of hatred is not considered 'freedom of speech' (a lesson we tragically learned from our bloody European history). However, not much is done with this law and everybody is expecting Wilders to be found 'not guilty'.

But if you have read his statements and his party's political goals and replace the word 'muslim' for 'jew' in all places, you would get the shivers and think it was 1933 again. But nowadays, you get honed if you point that out. They say you make 'a Godwin' when you do that. To form a governing coalition and stay in power, the conservative party and the christian-democrats have formed a political alliance with this extreme right-wing party, thus implicitly making their ideas and ideals acceptable and 'mainstream'.

The fact that their party has become the third-largest, even beating the progressive party and the socialist party, has made me very worried about the future of our country. Also, very worried for those hundreds of people who will be send back to places like Iraq and Afghanistan. It seems there's nothing that can be done to stop their party's popularity. Not even the constant stream of news about misbehaviour, violent behaviour and even criminal persecution of a number of their politicians. I just comfort myself with the idea that 85% of the Dutch did *not* vote for them.

Scarred4Life wrote:Excuse me while I go buy a plane ticket and load up my machine gun.

I know you're only joking, and normally I would laugh at it, but your timing is a bit unfortunate. Of course you probably didn't know about this...

Gunman kills six in Netherlands shopping centre

The killings took place at a busy shopping centre in the town of Alphen aan den Rijn, about 25km (15 miles) south-west of Amsterdam.

The mayor of the town said the man opened fire with an automatic weapon and then shot himself.

More: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13024785

Bizarre detail considering what we're discussing: a newspaper today revealed that the shooter had said to a friend he voted for the extreme right-wing party I talked about above.

Goliath wrote:That's not all. During a debate in parliament last year, when the former minister of immigration/asylum-affairs said Iraqi refugees would no longer automatically be granted permission to stay in our country (as had been policy since the start of the violent insurgencies in Iraq), and that Iraqi refugees would be send back to places where car bombings are still a part of daily life... the politicians of this extremist party started to clap and drum on their desks as a sign of approval.

Oh wow. I just can't understand these people's lines of thought. It just seems so crazy and awful that a person could want innocent people, people who have lived among them even, to be sent to such a dangerous place. To completely disrupt their lives, to put them through the horrors of living in such a place after they have been living comfortable lives, and be happy about it? How anyone could harbor this kind of hatred is beyond me. What are they so afraid of? What horrors do they think will befall them if the Iraqi people are allowed to stay?

Goliath wrote:The party's leader, Geert Wilders (a friend of neo-conservative anti-gay christian-fundamentalists in the US) is however standing trial for some of his remarks against muslims.

As unlikely as it is, I hope to god he is found guilty.

Goliath wrote:85% of the Dutch did *not* vote for them.

Well, that's something, right? But that really does show how corrupt things are, if 85% of people are opposed to this party, and they are still that powerful.

Goliath wrote:Of course you probably didn't know about this...

Gunman kills six in Netherlands shopping centre

No, I definitely did not know about that. And of course I was joking, but that truly was horrible timing.

Scarred4life wrote:Oh wow. I just can't understand these people's lines of thought. It just seems so crazy and awful that a person could want innocent people, people who have lived among them even, to be sent to such a dangerous place. To completely disrupt their lives, to put them through the horrors of living in such a place after they have been living comfortable lives, and be happy about it? How anyone could harbor this kind of hatred is beyond me. What are they so afraid of? What horrors do they think will befall them if the Iraqi people are allowed to stay?

Geert Wilders and his party try to pin all of society's problems on immigrants, mostly specifically targeting muslims. He says they're threatning our traditional judeo-christian culture. Which is funny, because a.) christians have persecuted jews throughout the centuries, so the idea of a 'judeo-christian culture' is laughable; and b.) the Iraqi's who were sent back were actually christians who fled their country after several bloody attacks on christians by muslim extremists. This party tries to convince the people that all our problems will be solved when we take away as much rights from immigrants and muslims as possible. Now, it's true we have problems with groups of mainly Moroccan youth (violence, theft, vandalism) who are far more likely to be involved with crime than native Dutch youth. This stems mostly from socio-economic factors, but this party would have us believe it's in their cultural background or religion. They ignore the vast majority of immigrants/muslims who do very well for themselves in The Netherlands. That doesn't fit their agenda.

Scarred4Life wrote:Well, that's something, right? But that really does show how corrupt things are, if 85% of people are opposed to this party, and they are still that powerful.

That's the problem of our electoral sysytem. We have 10 parties in parliament, and to form a government, two or three (sometimes even four) parties are needed. In this system, even a party which has lost half of their seats (like the christian-democrats) can still be part of government because they are needed by bigger parties to get a majority in parliament.

Scarred4Life wrote:No, I definitely did not know about that. And of course I was joking, but that truly was horrible timing.

I know you were joking and normally I wouldn't have made a big deal out of it, but this was just unfortunate timing, which was of course not your fault at all. As a nation, we're still shocked about this incident; the first of its kind over here.

Goliath wrote:He says they're threatning our traditional judeo-christian culture. Which is funny, because a.) christians have persecuted jews throughout the centuries, so the idea of a 'judeo-christian culture' is laughable; and b.) the Iraqi's who were sent back were actually christians who fled their country after several bloody attacks on christians by muslim extremists. This party tries to convince the people that all our problems will be solved when we take away as much rights from immigrants and muslims as possible.

How absurd. And to think there are people who actually believe this. I mean, really. This barely even makes sense. They really can't 'threaten' your culture unless you allow them to. You're still going to practice whatever religion you please, and perform the cultural activities you please, with or without immigrants in your country. True, people will be more aware of the religion/culture, and more apt to convert if they are around it, but I really cannot see how that is a threat in any way.

Of course, there will be culture clash, but you would get that with anyone, not just people from the Middle East. I know that here, in Canada, there have been some issues with women writing exams with burquas on, since you have to be identified, which is obviously next to impossible with your face covered. There had also been a man who joined the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police), and as part of the uniform you are required to wear a hat, which he could not, because of his turban. These incidents aren't a huge deal, but some people are quite upset about the latter, especially since Canada doesn't have much of a culture (we're almost all immigrants, 98% in fact.) and the RCMP is a pretty cultural thing over here.

Goliath wrote:Now, it's true we have problems with groups of mainly Moroccan youth (violence, theft, vandalism) who are far more likely to be involved with crime than native Dutch youth. This stems mostly from socio-economic factors, but this party would have us believe it's in their cultural background or religion. They ignore the vast majority of immigrants/Muslims who do very well for themselves in The Netherlands. That doesn't fit their agenda.

Exactly. And besides, lets punish the innocent people for what a few irresponsible teenagers have done. That's a really great solution.

Scarred4life wrote:How absurd. And to think there are people who actually believe this. I mean, really. This barely even makes sense. They really can't 'threaten' your culture unless you allow them to. [...]

Exactly. Not to mention these people have a very narrow-minded idea of what 'culture' means. They think a 'culture' is a static entity, which never changes and means the same to everybody. As if our Western culture hasn't changed dramatically just in the past 60 years! These people seem to have a longing for a mythological past; a utopian 1950's that has never existed. Back when there was still order, authority was respected and there were no 'foreigners', life was good.

Of course they never mention the fact that most people worked their asses off to rebuild the country, which was literally in shambles after World War II. They also don't mention it was a time when gays couldn't come out of the closet without becoming outcasts; women had little to no legal rights at all; and the church and the community decided everything for you. But hey, at least there were no strange brown-skinned people with funny religions. Without whom, by the way, that economic boom we had in the 1960's that brought us great prosperity, would have never happened, because we needed those people to fulfill all the jobs the Dutch didn't want to do themselves anymore.

But, like I said, they never mention this. It doesn't fit their agenda. They just have to repeat a few oneliners over and over: the foreigners are here to profit from your social security money; the foreigners are here to steal your jobs (how they're able to do this simultaneously has never been clarified) etc. Geert Wilders and his extreme right-wing party have added a new component to this old meme (well, actually he stole it from assassinated politician Pim Fortuyn*): the paranoid conspiracy theory that in the very near future, the one million muslims who live in The Netherlands, will rule over the other fifteen million people, impose sharia law on them and our country will be called 'Nether-Arabia'.

Yes, he has actually said this. And 1.5 million people heard that and said to themselves: "why, that sounds good. I'm voting for this guy."

*whose assassination was the work of a white, Dutch animals rights activist who opposed Fortuyn's "anti-democratic" ideas.

Scarred4Life wrote:Of course, there will be culture clash, but you would get that with anyone, not just people from the Middle East. I know that here, in Canada, there have been some issues with women writing exams with burquas on, since you have to be identified, which is obviously next to impossible with your face covered. [...]

That's one of those very few instances in which I agree with the political right: I believe the burqua is a degrading, misogynist piece of 'clothing' that is forced upon women by men who want to control their wives in every respect of their lives. A head-scarve is a totally different thing, to me. I can see women wanting to wear those voluntarily, like many roman-catholic women did 50 years ago. A headscarve doesn't shut you off from life around you; it doesn't isolate you like a burqua does. I'm all for religious freedom, but I draw the line where people are being oppressed by it.

Scarred4Life wrote:Exactly. And besides, lets punish the innocent people for what a few irresponsible teenagers have done. That's a really great solution.

It's an age-old tactic and it's called "divide and conquer". Just keep people fighting amongst themselves, so they are too distracted to see the real enemies: the same right-wing parties they vote in office, while they cut your pensions and your social security and lower the wages and cut funding for education and health care, just so they can give it away to their criminal corporate friends in the elite. Just keep the people distracted from the bigger picture. This is literally what Geert Wilders does: he says that, if we had not "imported" immigrants over the decades, we would have tons of money to close our budget gaps and wouldn't need to take severe austerity measures!

What frustrates me even more, is that the left doesn't seem to have an answer to his popularity. His debating techniques are easy to unmask; this lies are easy to disprove; his agenda is easy to explain, but somehow, it doesn't happen.

How does the Harper-government treat minorities/immigrants in Canada? Are there already new elections scheduled after the cabinet fell? (Or have those already taken place without me noticing it? That would surprise me.)

Goliath wrote:These people seem to have a longing for a mythological past; a utopian 1950's that has never existed. Back when there was still order, authority was respected and there were no 'foreigners', life was good.

I think that when people look back, they tend to see the good, and not the bad. I think we tend to build up our memories to more than they actually were at the time.

Goliath wrote:Yes, he has actually said this. And 1.5 million people heard that and said to themselves: "why, that sounds good. I'm voting for this guy."

Ugh. People really need to start thinking for themselves, and stop listening to people in power and automatically thinking that what they're saying *must* be true, because they're in power.

Goliath wrote:I believe the burqua is a degrading, misogynist piece of 'clothing' that is forced upon women by men who want to control their wives in every respect of their lives.

I completely agree here as well. What really gets to me is how hard women have worked so have equal rights with men, and yet now some women are choosing to be degraded and controlled. I don't understand how someone could choose to be completely cut off like this.

Goliath wrote:How does the Harper-government treat minorities/immigrants in Canada? Are there already new elections scheduled after the cabinet fell? (Or have those already taken place without me noticing it? That would surprise me.)

Our elections are scheduled for May 2nd. And in Canada, we are ridiculously tolerant of immigrants. There was even some talk of allowing Sharia law to take place in Ontario, until the people, obviously, spoke out against it.

*<i>Note from Moderator: Split from a previously existing thread. ( http://www.dvdizzy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28176 ) </i> *

Scarred4life wrote:Our elections are scheduled for May 2nd. And in Canada, we are ridiculously tolerant of immigrants. There was even some talk of allowing Sharia law to take place in Ontario, until the people, obviously, spoke out against it.

Ah, yes, the total opposite of xenophobic intolerance: too much tolerance. I've been called intolerant by some on the left because I strongly oppose things like sharia law and the burqua and those kinds of things. Some people on the left are pushing back so hard against right-wing xenophobia, that they go way to far in the opposite direction. They tend to avoid *any* kind of critcism of other cultures and religions, even when the criticism is factual and much-needed. Ironically, Islam is now being protected and defended by those who, in the 1960's and 1970's, did everything they could to discredit Christianity.

Me, I don't think much of any religion. I don't discriminate: I think they're all stupid and nunneccesary. But I will always defend one's right to practice one's religion (as long as it doesn't harm others or violates the law). That's why I don't want to have anything to do with the populists who selectively pick out Islam and its peaceful followers to bash.

Goliath wrote:Ah, yes, the total opposite of xenophobic intolerance: too much tolerance.

While that is part of it, it's not the only reason. It's partly because our shitty premier, Dalton McGuinty, was asked by a few Muslims to help allow Sharia law to take place, and he just went along, wanting their votes. But then, of course, he backed right up when people started opposing it.

Goliath wrote:I've been called intolerant by some on the left because I strongly oppose things like sharia law and the burqua and those kinds of things. Some people on the left are pushing back so hard against right-wing xenophobia, that they go way to far in the opposite direction. They tend to avoid *any* kind of critcism of other cultures and religions, even when the criticism is factual and much-needed.

You know what, I really don't think Sharia law is moral, and I can't understand why people follow it, but that does not make me an xenophobe, as some people keep insisting. I'm allowed to not agree with someone's views/practices, same as they're allowed to disagree with mine. I'm not stopping them from practicing their religion, I just don't think it's right to harm other beings for religious purposes. Even if there is a god, (doubtful, in my mind) do you really think that's what he wants people to do?

I will always fight for people's rights to practice and believe in whatever they want, because even if I don't believe in their faith, they do, which is what matters. I really, really hate not being able to express my beliefs, and to not have them taken seriously. I would never, ever want anyone to have their beliefs stifled. That's just absolutely horrible to me.

Goliath wrote:Me, I don't think much of any religion. I don't discriminate: I think they're all stupid and nunneccesary.

Big surprise, I agree with you again. Not to go all religious, (we all know how that thread turned out) but I'm agnostic, which I think is really the only intellectual thing. I just go by my moral compass, try to do what I feel is right, and whatever comes, comes. I don't see the point in all these religious rites and rituals. Instead of going to mass for an hour a week, wouldn't it do more good to volunteer somewhere for an hour, instead?

Wait... wasn't Stephen Harper your premier? I'm confused now. Anyway, let's just say they both suck, then.

I completely agree with what you said about (freedom of) religion. Speaking of the burqua: it was talked about last friday on Bill Maher's show. He had Irshad Manji on, a lesbian muslim who is totally open about it, and an activist to promote more freedom (for women) within islamic cultures. She said something that I thought was exactly putting the finger on the problem regarding the position of the woman within islam. She said that, within islamic societies, all of the burden of shame/honor is on the women. It's the women who have to uphold the honor of the family or the community, and it's the women who get punished when the family/community's honor has been violated. (For example (my words): if a man and woman have a premartial affair, it's always the woman getting punished for having brought shame on the family. No word is ever uttered about the man. That's why you see things like incarcerating or even stoning to death *victims* of rape in countries like Pakistan. Because the woman is always at fault.) This is extended to things like wearing a burqua or niquab: the woman has to take responsibility, not the man who can't control his urges. Manji said this is actually treating the men like children: they never have to take responsibility.

That really struck a chord with me. It's not that I had no knowledge of those issues (as I obviously had), but it's the way Manji worded it that made me see the 'structure' within which these practices occur; I saw the bigger framework (which I think I subconciously always knew about, but didn't know how to word it accurately). I totally agreed with her and I dosagreed with Maher, who was against banning the burqua, even though he's usually very tough on islam.

People on this forum probably know I'm very far to the left of the political spectrum, yet if I voiced these opinions, the left would act like I had committed a crime. That's their problem nowadays: the debate about immigration/islam has totally been hijacked by the extreme-right, which uses it for far less noble purposes than the liberation of women/gays/atheists in the islamic communities. They use it as part of a nationalist, xenophobic narrative. The left is afraid to take my position on islam, because they're afraid they'll only further the extreme-right's agenda or/and validate their framing.

More bad news from the extreme-right front: the nationalist anti-immigration party 'Real Fins' has quadrupled its number of parliamentary seats in sunday's elections, becoming the second largest party! Just check out the name: 'Real Fins'. What is a "real Fin"? Blonde hair, blue eyes? Ein Volck, ein Reich, ein...? I'm sad to see these movements on the rise all over Europe again. They're big in Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania, where it's still acceptable to be openly anti-semetic (as opposed to e.g. The Netherlands, where the extremist Wilders-party actually is a huge supporter of Israel and wants to perform ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the occupied territories instead); they're also on the rise again in France, where the extreme rightwing Front National party seemed to be in a miserable shape, but thanks to a new charismatic leader is on the rise again. In Italy, of course, the country of arch-fascist Benito Mussolini, Berlusconi's political allies includes a popular movement that are actually proud to call themselves "fascists".

(In that regard, it's ironic Berlusconi has to stand trial for having sex with an underage prostitute of Moroccan descent.)

Recession, bad economy, unsatisfied workers, populist leaders, a certain religious minority being scapegoated... will Europe ever learn?

Goliath wrote:Wait... wasn't Stephen Harper your premier? I'm confused now. Anyway, let's just say they both suck, then.

Stephen Harper is our prime minister, and Dalton McGuinty is Ontario's premier (representation for our province).

Goliath wrote:She said that, within islamic societies, all of the burden of shame/honor is on the women. [...] the woman has to take responsibility, not the man who can't control his urges. Manji said this is actually treating the men like children: they never have to take responsibility.

Wow, you're absolutely right, that really explains things wonderfully. I've never thought of it quite that way.

Goliath wrote:The left is afraid to take my position on islam, because they're afraid they'll only further the extreme-right's agenda or/and validate their framing.

That really is very unfortunate, considering nothing is ever going to change unless people speak up.

Goliath wrote:the nationalist anti-immigration party 'Real Fins' has quadrupled its number of parliamentary seats in sunday's elections, becoming the second largest party!

Why are people voting for them? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm actually very curious. If this party is so opposed to immigrants, how are they getting their votes? Does such a large amount of people actually agree with these views?

Goliath wrote:I'm sad to see these movements on the rise all over Europe again. They're big in Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania, where it's still acceptable to be openly anti-semetic [...] they're also on the rise again in France, where the extreme rightwing Front National party seemed to be in a miserable shape, but thanks to a new charismatic leader is on the rise again. In Italy, of course, the country of arch-fascist Benito Mussolini, Berlusconi's political allies includes a popular movement that are actually proud to call themselves "fascists".

Ugh. When will we learn. I think I mentioned this before, but I just don't get how people can feel this way. It's extremely difficult for me to fathom what's going on in their heads. And you mentioned some of their reasons before, but most of them are absolutely absurd, and besides, to me, there is nothing in the world to warrant such behavior. (and hate!)

Goliath wrote:will Europe ever learn?

I doubt it. People rarely do.

Scarred4life wrote:Wow, you're absolutely right, that really explains things wonderfully. I've never thought of it quite that way.

Here is the video of the whole conversation:

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Scarred4Life wrote:Why are people voting for them? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm actually very curious. If this party is so opposed to immigrants, how are they getting their votes? Does such a large amount of people actually agree with these views?

Ugh. When will we learn. I think I mentioned this before, but I just don't get how people can feel this way. It's extremely difficult for me to fathom what's going on in their heads. And you mentioned some of their reasons before, but most of them are absolutely absurd, and besides, to me, there is nothing in the world to warrant such behavior. (and hate!)

I believe these people are being tricked and deliberately being mislead into voting for these anti-immigrants/anti-muslim xenophobic parties. Like I said: it's a tactic of "divide and conquer": politicians appeal to age-old stereotypes and the basic instincts in men to protect 'their own' against 'the others' to gain political clout. The kinds of governments that these populist parties form or support (like in Denmark and The Netherlands, they don't want to take any responsibilty, so they're not part of the government, but their support in parliament is crucial to the existence of the actual minority cabinet), are right-wing conservative and their economic policies run directly opposed to the interest of the people who vote for them (in large numbers low-educated laborers who don't make a lot of money). Yet they still keep voting for these populists. It's like Bob Dylan described it in his 1964 song 'Only A Pawn In Their Game':

The South politician preaches to the poor white man
“You got more than the blacks, don’t complain.
You’re better than them,
you been born with white skin,”
they explain.
And the Negro’s name
Is used it is plain
For the politician’s gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain’t him to blame
He’s only a pawn in their game

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man’s used
in the hands of them all like a tool
He’s taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
’Bout the shape that he’s in
But it ain’t him to blame
He’s only a pawn in their game

With the rise of the Tea Party in the US ...which says its revolt against Obama is only about taxes and the deficit, while they carry around signs depicting him as a monkey, keep asking for his birth certificate and keep saying he's a secret Kenyan muslim; and which behind the scenes is funded by wealthy industrials like Koch Industries and vested (ex-) politicians like Dick Armey... this song from 1964 is awfully actual again.

I've struggled with this explanation, though. Because I kept asking myself: is there really any justification for this kind of ignorance? I mean, people don't *have* to be dependent on Fox News or sensationalist newspaper which only print half-truths and sometimes even outright lies. Information is out everywhere! We've got the internet now. It's easy to fact-check the lies these charlatans spout. Why should I give the people a pass for not knowing elementary things? I know I've done by fair share of trying to convince these people on the internet, handing them all the right links, the proof, the evidence, the sources, to let them see these right-extremists are lying to their faces. But they simply refused to believe. They acted as if my sources didn't exist, or they dismissed them as part of a vast "left-wing conspiracy". Aren't these people willfully ignorant? There's plenty of media out there to challenge their wrong-headed ideas.

But then I ask myself: if you have worked around the clock, which is particularly true about the US, where some people have to work even two or three jobs to pay the bills, do you still have the time and energy to keep informed? If you're not highly educated, is the complex world of politics really that easy to follow? I read weekly magazines about politics and current events, and sometimes I have to read an article three times to understand it. Isn't it easier to just read a populist newspaper, especially when you're also busy working a fulltime job, running the household and raising kids? And isn't this (keeping people badly informed) not the reason why these xenophobic demagogues also create an environment of anti-intellectualism, hostile to the arts, hostile to science? That's a vital part of their movements, not only with the Tea Party (Sarah Palin!!!), but also with Berlusconi's party 'Forza Italia!' and Geert Wilders' 'Freedom Party'.

And then we're back to what I initially said: divide and conquer to keep the people fighting among themselves. They frame the conflict in terms of 'native citizen' vs. 'immigrant', while the *real* conflict of course is between 'the haves' vs. 'the have-nots'. The regular citizens and the immigrants should be fighting on the same side. It's not immigrants who brought down the economic system, causing a world-wide crash and got handsomely rewarded for it by the state to boot. But to distract the people from this, immigrants/muslims/blacks/whomever 'different' gets appointed official scapegoat.

God, I always feel so depressed after visiting this thread.

Thanks for finding the video, that was very interesting to watch.

Goliath wrote:I've struggled with this explanation, though. Because I kept asking myself: is there really any justification for this kind of ignorance? I mean, people don't *have* to be dependent on Fox News or sensationalist newspaper which only print half-truths and sometimes even outright lies. [...]

But then I ask myself: if you have worked around the clock, which is particularly true about the US, where some people have to work even two or three jobs to pay the bills, do you still have the time and energy to keep informed? If you're not highly educated, is the complex world of politics really that easy to follow?

Well, I am definitely not the political expert, and I don't do much research on the subject (something I hope to remedy in the future), but I know enough not to listen to everything (anything!) Fox News and the like say. But I feel that if you are voting for a party, and supporting them, it is your duty to know everything about this party. As much as I dislike people who don't vote, that's much better than just voting for the sake of voting.

I agree with you about the time issue, some people just don't have it. Others just aren't interested. And yes, some people don't understand politics.

Sometimes, I think that people are purposefully ignorant. Isn't it much easier to just sit and watch Fox news, rather than actually taking the time to research things online? And another thing, do people really want to know about all the corruption, prejudice, lies, and everything else involved in politics and the like.

Goliath wrote:And then we're back to what I initially said: divide and conquer to keep the people fighting among themselves. [...] The regular citizens and the immigrants should be fighting on the same side.

Actually a very smart tactic, but would be rendered useless if people would start to realize it.

Thank you for renaming the thread, mods, and thank you, Disneyphile, for being such a good sport about it!

I hope more people will join the discussion.