DVDizzy Forum

Let's talk about World War II. Discuss the politics + history behind it, the ideas of appeasement and isolationism, key points/events during the War-era, the Holocaust (though that could be a separate thread as it is a large enough topic on its own), and share people's stories from the war-era.

Discuss all of these and your opinions on various World War II-related topics.

Lets just say WWII is just another reason to hate Woodrow Wilson, who had to be one of the worst US presidents of all time.

posted this in another thread but this thread is more relevant :







yes Jp, i agree.[/img]

jpanimation wrote:Lets just say WWII is just another reason to hate Woodrow Wilson, who had to be one of the worst US presidents of all time.

Elaborate on that please. (Trying to create discussion)

I thought Wilson had wanted to keep the other countries from taken everything out on Germany after WWI, but they demanded reparations--throwing Germany in debt for years (which ties into WWII). I don’t know, I just don’t think Wilson could be blamed for WWII. Not the best president for what was needed at the time, but I don't think he was the worst.

When I had a college class on American history, it was interesting to read about the two World Wars. WWI, especially, seemed to be unavoidable--it was like a stack of dominoes--where WWII most likely could have prevented.

Personally, if I had to pick who the REAL worst US President was, I'd have to say James Polk. While he had his share of mistakes, I'd say Pres. Wilson should not be blamed for World War I. The Treaty of Versailles was a joke becuase of Prime Minister David Lloyd George and Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau of England and France. While Wilson wanted a League of Nations and a lasting peace in Europe, Lloyd George and Clemenceau were more interested in taking it out on Germany and using the war as a chance to gain more power and land via secret deals.

England and France were stuck in the way wars were fought in the last century, while the US was interested in moving forward. If anything, Wilson was one of our better Presidents. I'd say the top of the middle of the road to be fair. I wish he had pushed Lloyd George and Clemenceau more, I would have a hard time seeing Regan, Clinton, Bush Sr. and Jr., or Obama being pushed around like Wilson was by England and France. Had he stood up more, it could have saved a lot of lives later, but I'd like to believe he set a stage for US Idealism in global affairs.

World War Two happened becuase England and France treated Germany poorly and unfairly, and the US after World War I went back to pre-WWI and wanted to be left alone. The exact same question we grappled with after WWII we deal with today. Many on either side of the political spectrum question the war in Iraq and the military assistance of Libya, and to be fair there are some differences, defiantly in reasons and approach.

But all one has to do is mention Hittler and how close he literally came to ruling the World. If the US had not been attacked at Pearl Harbor, I'm not so sure there would be a United States of America today. Had Japan not messed up big time, Hittler would have taken the UK and the rest of Europe, very likely many of the South American nations we were fighting over (see "Walt and El Groupo" for more on that) and by the time he would have been ready for the US, there would not have been any more Allie to fight with, and we would have lost. I think we entered the war at the last possible moment that we had an honest shot at winning it, like we did.

So I guess, looking at the lessons of both World Wars and our wars since, wisdom should teach us to get involved when it truly is for ligament reasons of standing up to evil, and to stay out of it when it's over things like power, oil, money, and other stupid things we've fought wars over in the time since World War II. We need to find a balance in our international policies.

Super Aurora wrote:posted this in another thread but this thread is more relevant :







yes Jp, i agree.[/img]

Where'd you get that pic? Im gonna facebook it.

ajmrowland wrote:
Where'd you get that pic? Im gonna facebook it.

friend of mine from another forum posted it.


here's another one i personally love.

jpanimation wrote:Lets just say WWII is just another reason to hate Woodrow Wilson, who had to be one of the worst US presidents of all time.

Er... I'm not sure what you mean, but Woodrow Wilson was president during WWI, not WWII. That was FDR. Maybe you meant to say that Wilson shouldn't have agreed with the Versailles treaty, which essentially laid the groundworks for the rise of Hitler?

milojthatch wrote:Personally, if I had to pick who the REAL worst US President was, I'd have to say James Polk.

I'd pick Ronald Reagan.

milojthatch wrote:[...] While Wilson wanted a League of Nations and a lasting peace in Europe, Lloyd George and Clemenceau were more interested in taking it out on Germany and using the war as a chance to gain more power and land via secret deals. [...] I wish he had pushed Lloyd George and Clemenceau more, [...] Had he stood up more, it could have saved a lot of lives later, but I'd like to believe he set a stage for US Idealism in global affairs.

I think that's partly true. You have to take into account the fact that Wilson had no political backing at home to do so. Congress didn't want to commit to any role in the League of Nations and essentially wanted to return to America's isolationist policies. Wilson, as I understand it, pushed hard to get the US into the League of Nations, but Congress wouldn't approve.

milojthatch wrote:World War Two happened becuase England and France treated Germany poorly and unfairly, and the US after World War I went back to pre-WWI and wanted to be left alone.

Again, I think that's partly true. It's also true that appeasement was a terrible mistake on the part of Great-Britain and France. They had saddles Germany with the Versailles treaty, but when Hitler essentially started to wipe his ass with it, they did nothing, signaling to Hitler he could do whatever he pleased. France and Great-Britain thought they were preventing another war that way, but they did just the opposite. When they *gave* Czechoslovakia (sp?) to Hitler, he knew he could do anything.

milojthatch wrote:But all one has to do is mention Hittler and how close he literally came to ruling the World. If the US had not been attacked at Pearl Harbor, I'm not so sure there would be a United States of America today. Had Japan not messed up big time, Hittler would have taken the UK and the rest of Europe, very likely many of the South American nations we were fighting over (see "Walt and El Groupo" for more on that) and by the time he would have been ready for the US, there would not have been any more Allie to fight with, and we would have lost.

I think that's a really, really, really, really far-fetched and totally unrealistic picture. Maybe the US wouldn't have gotten involved if it were not for Pearl Harbor (though FDR really wanted to, but the American public didn't want it), but I can't see how Hitler would have taken the UK (which he wasn't succesful in taking the first times he attacked) and South-America. And we will never know if Hitler would've been defeated by Russia if he didn't have had two fronts to fight.

Goliath wrote:

milojthatch wrote:Personally, if I had to pick who the REAL worst US President was, I'd have to say James Polk.

I'd pick Ronald Reagan.

Even over Andrew Johnson vetoed the Freeman's Bureau and the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and tried to prevent ratification of the 14th amendment? Whose government appointments passed "black codes"? Surely Reagan can't be worse than that.

milojthatch wrote:[...] While Wilson wanted a League of Nations and a lasting peace in Europe, Lloyd George and Clemenceau were more interested in taking it out on Germany and using the war as a chance to gain more power and land via secret deals. [...] I wish he had pushed Lloyd George and Clemenceau more, [...] Had he stood up more, it could have saved a lot of lives later, but I'd like to believe he set a stage for US Idealism in global affairs.

I think that's partly true. You have to take into account the fact that Wilson had no political backing at home to do so. Congress didn't want to commit to any role in the League of Nations and essentially wanted to return to America's isolationist policies. Wilson, as I understand it, pushed hard to get the US into the League of Nations, but Congress wouldn't approve.

I agree. Wilson pretty much stood alone and that makes it hard to get anything done. You know how it looked for the League of Nations to be Wilson's brainchild but his own nation not wanting to be a part of it?

milojthatch wrote:World War Two happened becuase England and France treated Germany poorly and unfairly, and the US after World War I went back to pre-WWI and wanted to be left alone.

Again, I think that's partly true. It's also true that appeasement was a terrible mistake on the part of Great-Britain and France. They had saddles Germany with the Versailles treaty, but when Hitler essentially started to wipe his ass with it, they did nothing, signaling to Hitler he could do whatever he pleased. France and Great-Britain thought they were preventing another war that way, but they did just the opposite. When they *gave* Czechoslovakia (sp?) to Hitler, he knew he could do anything.

I agree. They acted too late and resulted in a bigger escalation than there perhaps would have been if they acted sooner. There were many instances where they should have stepped in (The Rhineland, Anschluss of Austria, etc). Giving Czechoslovakia was the final sign to Hitler that he could so anything.

milojthatch wrote:But all one has to do is mention Hittler and how close he literally came to ruling the World. If the US had not been attacked at Pearl Harbor, I'm not so sure there would be a United States of America today. Had Japan not messed up big time, Hittler would have taken the UK and the rest of Europe, very likely many of the South American nations we were fighting over (see "Walt and El Groupo" for more on that) and by the time he would have been ready for the US, there would not have been any more Allie to fight with, and we would have lost.

I think that's a really, really, really, really far-fetched and totally unrealistic picture. Maybe the US wouldn't have gotten involved if it were not for Pearl Harbor (though FDR really wanted to, but the American public didn't want it), but I can't see how Hitler would have taken the UK (which he wasn't succesful in taking the first times he attacked) and South-America. And we will never know if Hitler would've been defeated by Russia if he didn't have had two fronts to fight.

The world held it's breath when Germany invaded Russia. Who knows what would have happened if they succeeded (Records show they were very close but made fatal mistakes preventing that). The world also watched when the UK was the last one standing. I believe FDR sent supplies and even troops to Britain's aid before the US's entry into the war. Who knows what would have happened if Japan and Germany gained much more land before the US's involvement. How grave would the situation have been? From what I read about the early years of the war, even with US involvement. There was no clear indication who the victor was going to be. It was that critical of a situation.

The_Iceflash wrote:Even over Andrew Johnson vetoed the Freeman's Bureau and the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and tried to prevent ratification of the 14th amendment? Whose government appointments passed "black codes"? Surely Reagan can't be worse than that.

This is off-topic, but I still want to answer it:

To be honest, I don't know that much about Andrew Johnson or James Polk (who was picked by miljthatch) and don't know about the Freeman's Bureau and the Civil Rights Act of 1866. I'll admit that. It just strikes me as very odd that Ronald Reagan is celebrated by the American public as one of the best presidents ever, when in fact, everything that's wrong with the US today...

...like the collapse of the financial system; the current economic crisis; Wall Street run amuck; no oversight or regulations for banks selling toxic assets and bad mortages; multibillion dollar corporations which pay zero taxes; the ever-growing gap between the richest and poorest people; the fact that 5% of the country holds over 70% of the wealth; people having to work two or sometimes three jobs to just be able to pay the bills; the fact that the average CEO now makes over 400 times the money of the average worker; quadrupling the deficit (setting an all-time record until W. broke it); the idea that lowering taxes on the rich have to be paid for by cutting social security; the crumbling of the middle class; the war on unions; the assault on public schools; the influence of the hard christian right in politics; the dumbing down of the public discours; the anti-intellectualism; the smear campaigns against political opponents; concentration of almost all media in the hands of four or five mega-corporations; the idea that it's the government which is the enemy; the idea that poor people are just lazy and everybody could be a millionaire if they just worked a little harder for their bosses, handing in just a little more vacation time, handing over just some more bargaining rights...

... can be traced back directly to Reagan. And that's not even mentioning his openly support for South-Africa's Apartheid regime (when the rest of the civilized world was boycotting them); putting Nelson Mandela on a 'terrorist list'; covertly selling arms to the fundamentalists in Iran who had just been taking American hostages; funneling that money to terrorist death-squads in Nicaragua who fought the leftist Sandanista-government (also known as 'Iran-Contra', an impeachable offense for which Reagan and Bush should've been removed from office); illegal invasions in Grenada, El Salvador and Honduras; genocide in Guatemala (for which president Clinton had to openly apologize on behalf of the US); selling arms to Saddam Hussein; and his support for fascist dictators everywhere, most notably Augusto Pinochet in Chile.

Or, to put it better:

LOL at that comic.

As bad as Reagen did things, They weren't what Jackson did to the natives. Jackson was brutal.

The_Iceflash wrote:The world held it's breath when Germany invaded Russia. Who knows what would have happened if they succeeded (Records show they were very close but made fatal mistakes preventing that). The world also watched when the UK was the last one standing. I believe FDR sent supplies and even troops to Britain's aid before the US's entry into the war. Who knows what would have happened if Japan and Germany gained much more land before the US's involvement. How grave would the situation have been? From what I read about the early years of the war, even with US involvement. There was no clear indication who the victor was going to be. It was that critical of a situation.

It was close here... but then we bombed parts of Germany and suddenly Hitler stopped attacking the airfields and planes, and went after our cities in retaliation. THAT was an error and allowed us to recover somewhat to finally keep the Luftwaffe from taking the skies and making an invasion easier. Also contrary to films etc, most pilots taking part in the Battle of Britain were working class, rather unlike the actors usually in the films heh. At least it also shows just how well pilots of many nations (especially Poland) came together as a fighting unit with one goal.

And yes, the US was supplying arms, bullets and machinery to the Allies in Europe before actual entry into the war. America had an interest in Europe remaining free but didn't want to get involved again. Until Japan came calling. I don't recall any American troops or planes being here in the UK before summer 1942 though, but I could be wrong (I did some research on this for a short story I wrote!). Most of the GIs didn't arrive until 1943 though.

@Goliath: Those are good points. It's interesting too look back and see how much past actions of administrations affects the nation/world today.

As far as the Freeman's Bureau and Civil Rights Act of 1966 go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth ... nstitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1866
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman%27s_Bureau

I know it's Wikipedia but they actually have nice concise descriptions of these three that are good for our purposes.

Mayhem wrote:

The_Iceflash wrote:The world held it's breath when Germany invaded Russia. Who knows what would have happened if they succeeded (Records show they were very close but made fatal mistakes preventing that). The world also watched when the UK was the last one standing. I believe FDR sent supplies and even troops to Britain's aid before the US's entry into the war. Who knows what would have happened if Japan and Germany gained much more land before the US's involvement. How grave would the situation have been? From what I read about the early years of the war, even with US involvement. There was no clear indication who the victor was going to be. It was that critical of a situation.

It was close here... but then we bombed parts of Germany and suddenly Hitler stopped attacking the airfields and planes, and went after our cities in retaliation. THAT was an error and allowed us to recover somewhat to finally keep the Luftwaffe from taking the skies and making an invasion easier. Also contrary to films etc, most pilots taking part in the Battle of Britain were working class, rather unlike the actors usually in the films heh. At least it also shows just how well pilots of many nations (especially Poland) came together as a fighting unit with one goal.

And yes, the US was supplying arms, bullets and machinery to the Allies in Europe before actual entry into the war. America had an interest in Europe remaining free but didn't want to get involved again. Until Japan came calling. I don't recall any American troops or planes being here in the UK before summer 1942 though, but I could be wrong (I did some research on this for a short story I wrote!). Most of the GIs didn't arrive until 1943 though.

I forget where I saw about US troops going to the UK pre-1942. I read it somewhere and I did see it in a documentary. What I found online just now:

"In the spring of 1941 American and British military representatives held their first combined staff conferences to discuss strategy in the event of active U.S. participation in the war. The staffs agreed that if the United States entered the war, the Allies would concentrate on the defeat of Germany first. The President authorized active naval patrols in the western half of the Atlantic, and in July, American troops took the place of British forces guarding Iceland."

http://www.worldwariihistory.info/in/USA.html

It was very very limited before their entry as the US was in a very strong isolationist mode. I guess this was one of those times where that wasn't a good idea. Most of the US aid before was in the form of supplies. You're right, most didn't come to the UK until 1943. From what I read and saw in documentaries, one thing I was very impressed with was how much the UK came together as a fighting unit. I think that was one of the main reasons they won. Odds were certainly against them as they were the only ones left at that point (pre-Germany invading the USSR) and who knows what would have happened if they lost. Germany made many fatal mistakes alone the way but the world did become dangerously close to Axis dominance. If the UK and the USSR were knocked out (which they were both close to being) it would have been mainly the US vs Japan, Germany, and Italy and the territories under their occupation. That would have been a very scary situation.

If Germany had attempted an invasion of the UK, then it would have become a very similar situation to what happened when the US went to retake all the islands from the Japanese, or the Nazis attempting to take certain Russian cities; a very guerilla, bloody and attrition-filled mess. There was a documentary on TV not so long ago (within the last 2-3 years) revealing how a lot of the general population was prepared to repel as best they could any German troops, along with "suicide operatives" which you could say were an earlier runner to today's Islamic terrorists. They were trained to act alone, independently, cause as much destruction as possible, didn't know any of other operatives, and if need be, die in the process.

@ The_Iceflash: Thanks for those links; it's always good to learn about new subjects. I won't go any further into discussing them here, as they're way off-topic.

I'm glad Mayhem mentioned the Polish, who are often forgotten when it comes to World War II discussions.

Goliath wrote:@ The_Iceflash: Thanks for those links; it's always good to learn about new subjects. I won't go any further into discussing them here, as they're way off-topic.

I'm glad Mayhem mentioned the Polish, who are often forgotten when it comes to World War II discussions.

Made a new thread: http://www.dvdizzy.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

Look what we've just found sitting off the coast... amazing what you still find today, and hopefully able to preserve.

Mayhem wrote:If Germany had attempted an invasion of the UK, then it would have become a very similar situation to what happened when the US went to retake all the islands from the Japanese, or the Nazis attempting to take certain Russian cities; a very guerilla, bloody and attrition-filled mess. There was a documentary on TV not so long ago (within the last 2-3 years) revealing how a lot of the general population was prepared to repel as best they could any German troops, along with "suicide operatives" which you could say were an earlier runner to today's Islamic terrorists. They were trained to act alone, independently, cause as much destruction as possible, didn't know any of other operatives, and if need be, die in the process.

I agree. The UK certainly was not going to go down without a fight and the way the general population banded together, it would have been just as you described.

Mayhem wrote:Look what we've just found sitting off the coast... amazing what you still find today, and hopefully able to preserve.

That is pretty amazing!