DVDizzy Forum

Why did Disney support laserdisc so much? It was a largely obscure and unpopular format in the english speaking world and yet Disney released all (or nearly all?) of the classics in fantastic editions with lavish special features. Why? Disney failed to do that with DVD or Blu-Ray.

I cannot answer your question, but keep in mind that while it was obscure to you and me (i.e. Europeans) laserdisc was by no means invisible in the US. As far as I know, the format never caught on in Europe - but it did occupy a niche market in the US (and the rest of the world).

Well we always had VHS, then eventually DVD (I'm in the US). Quite frankly, I never even saw or heard of Laser Disc until my science teacher showed us one (were these even sold in stores?). At first I thought he pulled out a record, but then he put it in the GIANT DVD-like player and a movie started playing. My first thought: "who they hell would ever buy something so unreasonably big?"

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dfqDoet-Sr8&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dfqDoet-Sr8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UBJ9VBliowU&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UBJ9VBliowU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

The only thing that would probably make these worth anything are extras that never carried over or the art that comes with them (I'll admit, they seem to be aimed more towards adults then the DVD counterparts are, some nice cover art). Out of all those, Beauty and the Beast would probably be worth owning. For the original colors and opened up aspect ratio (I know its not the theatrical aspect ratio but you could always crop it yourself if you really wanted it).

LD's were always aimed at the niche adult film collector, as amazingly enough, I think Disney realized there was a market for premium material way back in the day. You could almost make the same argument for Blu-ray in this day and age, but the main difference is that Blu-ray is so much more mainstream and affordable than LD ever was during its lifetime of production. Sadly enough, it seems Disney barely tapped the surface of what they could do on DVD and it looks as though they're going the same general direction with Blu-ray. We have bonus features again of course as well as the higher-quality picture and sound, but we now have countless edits, disputes in colors, "forgotten" bonus features, etc. Perhaps that's all because DVD and Blu-ray are much more mainstream and thus are more in the hands of the average, casual buyer that's less likely to care about such things. Why cater to the collectors when the majority of buyers are soccer moms looking to purchase wholesome memories/babysitters for their kids?

I honestly have a hard time watching DVD enthusiasts complain about how Blu-rays are favored when it comes to bonus features and the like. Imagine being a hardcore Disney fan in the 80's-90's and comparing the differences between VHS and LD! There were rarely bonus features on the VHS format, there was an enormous difference in quality between the two, and perhaps the greatest difference of all was the price tag (considering both the players and the films themselves). A typical DAC on VHS would run you about $20, yet a CAV LD of the exact same film could easily run $80-$120! Imagine having to spend $100+ on one film because you wanted the better quality and bonus features. And when you consider inflation . . . yikes! It makes the price differences between DVD and Blu-ray all the more bearable.

And despite what I'm saying here, I'm not advocating Blu-ray in any form, in fact I still don't have a player. I have picked up some combo sets since they've been ridiculously cheap and do plan on getting a player one of these days, but I don't hold any grudges against either format and fail to understand why others do.

As for the size of LD's, keep in mind that the target audience grew up with records, and even in that era records were still relatively common (I clearly recall still seeing records on the shelves of every Wal-mart as late as the early 90's). It didn't seem like an outlandish idea for movies to be in a similar size. Of course, what would personally irk me was having to flip the discs over to access different parts of the film, but that sort of goes along with the whole record mentality as well.

I typically only saw LD's available in larger music, book, or video stores in the more populated cities (I only recall seeing them in Chicago and Joliet/Crest Hill, IL), often in huge bins that allowed you to flip through the sleeves. And of course, some of the fancier CAV editions were in boxes instead of the record-like sleeves and often included art books. I remember seeing a Mickey Mouse in B&W LD set (which reportedly didn't sell as well as hoped) at Crow's Nest and being very disappointed in knowing that the same set of shorts would probably never be available on VHS (DVD's were completely unheard of and the yet-to-exist Treasures series was beyond a collector's wildest dreams). Years later the same Crow's Nest had an enormous sale on all their LD's in an effort to be rid of them and make room for VHS's and the growing DVD catalog. The prices were amazing and I wish I'd have been able to pick up some of those Disney, Looney Tunes, Tex Avery, and Tom & Jerry sets. But that seemed rather pointless as I was far from being able to afford one of those players at the time.

I still wouldn't mind getting a laserdisc player and picking up titles like Song of the South (which would obviously have to be an import), Who Framed Roger Rabbit (the only official way to get it unedited), or Beauty and the Beast (for the original colors as already stated here) but I'm wary of latching onto a dead format. I'd worry about the life-span of any player I'd pick up, and besides, the expense of it all would probably kill me.

Wow, LDs.... They're pretty! They had a huuuuge selection of LDs at my local "Tower Video" before it closed... yeah, similar to "Tower Records"... wow, which doesn't exist anymore either... They mostly had anime titles it seemed. The boxes were pretty!

enigmawing wrote:
As for the size of LD's, keep in mind that the target audience grew up with records, and even in that era records were still relatively common (I clearly recall still seeing records on the shelves of every Wal-mart as late as the early 90's). It didn't seem like an outlandish idea for movies to be in a similar size. Of course, what would personally irk me was having to flip the discs over to access different parts of the film, but that sort of goes along with the whole record mentality as well.

That makes sense to me. Good analysis I think about LD size.

Anyway, like many people I went from VHS to DVD. I never got into Laser Disc, but I was aware of them. They just cost too much back in the day and then I started doing the DVD thing.

But oh wow, I had no idea that Disney went as all out on LD as they did. In some ways it actually does put there DVD and even BluRay push to shame. The pictures were amazing as well as the packaging on some of them and I envy LD owners for some of the extras that seemed to skip DVD and BluRay thus far.

I think it is safe to say I don't understand how the Board of Directors thinks at Disney. They make no sense to me, but maybe that is part of the point?

enigmawing wrote:I honestly have a hard time watching DVD enthusiasts complain about how Blu-rays are favored when it comes to bonus features and the like. Imagine being a hardcore Disney fan in the 80's-90's and comparing the differences between VHS and LD! There were rarely bonus features on the VHS format, there was an enormous difference in quality between the two, and perhaps the greatest difference of all was the price tag (considering both the players and the films themselves). A typical DAC on VHS would run you about $20, yet a CAV LD of the exact same film could easily run $80-$120! Imagine having to spend $100+ on one film because you wanted the better quality and bonus features. And when you consider inflation . . . yikes! It makes the price differences between DVD and Blu-ray all the more bearable.

And despite what I'm saying here, I'm not advocating Blu-ray in any form, in fact I still don't have a player. I have picked up some combo sets since they've been ridiculously cheap and do plan on getting a player one of these days, but I don't hold any grudges against either format and fail to understand why others do.

As someone who you have probably seen "complain" about the current trend of DVD getting the shaft feature-wise compared to BD, I wanted to respond to this. But first I would like to say I enjoy your posts, and am not trying to be argumentative or a contrarian, I would just like to present an alternate viewpoint, as a DVD enthusiast

I think comparing the lack of features on VHS vs LD (or VHS vs the then newly emerging DVD format) in the past is not exactly the same situation as what's going on now with features:DVD vs BD.

To begin with, as you stated VHS was never really a bonus features medium to begin with. Sure, there might sometimes be a relatively short making of featurette, music video, or bonus cartoon, but it never reached the level of LD and DVD. Therefore, it's not like some studio exec said "Hey, let's start leaving the making ofs, featurettes, and art galleries off the VHS so people will go LD/DVD". Those things were never part of the expectations of the format to begin with.

When DVD arrived, it took the industry by storm and won the hearts of an unprecedented amount of people to become the best selling home video format in history. DVD combined the bonus features capability and excellent picture quality of LD with other user-friendly attributes (imagine, you can actually watch a movie from beginning to end, as intended, the way you see them in the cinema without having to change discs or sides 3 times in the middle of the movie! All at an affordable price.

By 2001, Disney had raised the bonus-feature bar with the Snow White Platinum, and from 2001-2005, most of the new animated classics (and everything by Pixar) were getting lavish, two-disc sets.

So, this is where I think the comparision you made is different. The PRECEDENT that DVD is a bonus-features medium, and part of the expectations of DVD enthusiasts, has already been established. Pandora has opened the box, as it were.

Now I'll spare everyone the long and sordid history of how Disney's quality of DVD releases has gone gradually downhill since the dawn of "Disney Blu-Ray".

So lets fast-forward to the Princess and the Frog DVD. I think deep down, everyone (regardless of if they are in the BD camp, DVD camp, or neutral) KNOWS intuitively, that features DVD buyers have come to expect as normal features - namely, "making of" documentaries, featurettes that compliment the "Making of", and Art Galleries would NOT have been witheld from the Princess and the Frog DVD, if it were not for Disney making a conscious decision to try to push people towards BD.

So it's not the same case scenario as LD suddenly appearing from the ether and offering an amazing amount of things never experienced or expected from VHS.

Basically, the current situation is that Disney is making the BD versions of movies like Up and Princess and the Frog the supplimental equvalent of what WOULD have been on the DVD had either:

1) BD never existed, or
2) BD exists, but Disney would still be commited to treating the DVD versions with the same respect they treated the format with in the past.

It's one thing to complain about other formats getting better treatment than yours if your format never got A-list treatment to begin with.

But what's happening now is clearly a different situation IMO, because the DVD releases are not living up to neither their potential as a format, or what they've been in the past.

To put it bluntly, leaving off the main "making of", several other featurettes, and the Art Gallery off of the PatF DVD - (features that could and should have been on the DVD, and WOULD have in the 2 numbered scenarios I listed above) is nothing less than Disney p***ing in the face of their loyal, longtime DVD buyers, and saying "this is what you get for not "going Blu".

And the irony is, I was completely neutral about BD before they started doing this. Admitedly, I had no plans to ever get it unless it were to take over since I'm happy with DVD, (just as I am happy with CD and felt no need to get Super Audio CD) but when I say neutral I mean I felt no negative vibes when I heard the word "blu-ray".

But now, because of Disney's hardball tactics, it does make me feel subconsious anomosity when I hear the word. Not against the format itself, but because of the way Disney is handling this, I feel more determined than ever to never "go blu"!

That's the great irony here. Tactics intended to make me embrace the new format are only pushing me further away from it. Had Disney not started this BS, who knows? Maybe in the future I'd buy a bigger TV and give BD a try, when I was ready to do so. But as it stands now, hell will have to freeze over and pigs fly first!

Having said that, I can honestly say I am am not inherently anti-BD, just EXTREMELY anti the way Disney is watering down their DVDs to hard-sell their new pet format.

Most importantly, I am PRO-DVD, and I want my DVDs to be the best they can possibly be, bonus-feature wise.

PS. Enigmawing, once again I would like to state this post is not meant to be an argument or negative towards you. The LD vs VHS comparison you made reminded me of thoughts I've been wanting to express regarding those comparisons, and the rest just flowed naturally from there

Even though I started hating Disney's commercialness when the whole Hannah Montana boom era came about, I despise them even more for shoving crap down DVD owners throats. I'm a Blu-Ray owner, but this whole new lackluster DVD thing is ridiculous. What happened to the whole 2-Disc DVD option thing?

Disney's going down the drain. I really started noticing this after the change of the Disney logo. It's no longer Walt Disney, but a corporate Disney that's only shames his name.

On-topic, those Laserdisc editions look awesome. I love the packaging and the obvious effort that went into them. The end results are astonishing. Blu-ray and DVD just doesn't compare when it comes to design. It's sort of like comparing a handmade Bible from an earlier century to an eBook version of the Bible.

I was wondering...

can anyone here tell me if they think that the
lionking making of (80 min special) from the laserdisc will end up on the bluray editon or should I probably be bying it now when I still can?
If so, does anyone know where to obtain it
(for a reasonable price!!)

It's a pitty that bluray does of yet not make use of it's full potential
Why advertise with ''more'' or ''extra'' when all we get is normal bonus content, which in itself is barebones!

David S. wrote:

enigmawing wrote:I honestly have a hard time watching DVD enthusiasts complain about how Blu-rays are favored when it comes to bonus features and the like. Imagine being a hardcore Disney fan in the 80's-90's and comparing the differences between VHS and LD! There were rarely bonus features on the VHS format, there was an enormous difference in quality between the two, and perhaps the greatest difference of all was the price tag (considering both the players and the films themselves). A typical DAC on VHS would run you about $20, yet a CAV LD of the exact same film could easily run $80-$120! Imagine having to spend $100+ on one film because you wanted the better quality and bonus features. And when you consider inflation . . . yikes! It makes the price differences between DVD and Blu-ray all the more bearable.

And despite what I'm saying here, I'm not advocating Blu-ray in any form, in fact I still don't have a player. I have picked up some combo sets since they've been ridiculously cheap and do plan on getting a player one of these days, but I don't hold any grudges against either format and fail to understand why others do.

As someone who you have probably seen "complain" about the current trend of DVD getting the shaft feature-wise compared to BD, I wanted to respond to this. But first I would like to say I enjoy your posts, and am not trying to be argumentative or a contrarian, I would just like to present an alternate viewpoint, as a DVD enthusiast

I think comparing the lack of features on VHS vs LD (or VHS vs the then newly emerging DVD format) in the past is not exactly the same situation as what's going on now with features:DVD vs BD.

To begin with, as you stated VHS was never really a bonus features medium to begin with. Sure, there might sometimes be a relatively short making of featurette, music video, or bonus cartoon, but it never reached the level of LD and DVD. Therefore, it's not like some studio exec said "Hey, let's start leaving the making ofs, featurettes, and art galleries off the VHS so people will go LD/DVD". Those things were never part of the expectations of the format to begin with.

When DVD arrived, it took the industry by storm and won the hearts of an unprecedented amount of people to become the best selling home video format in history. DVD combined the bonus features capability and excellent picture quality of LD with other user-friendly attributes (imagine, you can actually watch a movie from beginning to end, as intended, the way you see them in the cinema without having to change discs or sides 3 times in the middle of the movie! All at an affordable price.

By 2001, Disney had raised the bonus-feature bar with the Snow White Platinum, and from 2001-2005, most of the new animated classics (and everything by Pixar) were getting lavish, two-disc sets.

So, this is where I think the comparision you made is different. The PRECEDENT that DVD is a bonus-features medium, and part of the expectations of DVD enthusiasts, has already been established. Pandora has opened the box, as it were.

Now I'll spare everyone the long and sordid history of how Disney's quality of DVD releases has gone gradually downhill since the dawn of "Disney Blu-Ray".

So lets fast-forward to the Princess and the Frog DVD. I think deep down, everyone (regardless of if they are in the BD camp, DVD camp, or neutral) KNOWS intuitively, that features DVD buyers have come to expect as normal features - namely, "making of" documentaries, featurettes that compliment the "Making of", and Art Galleries would NOT have been witheld from the Princess and the Frog DVD, if it were not for Disney making a conscious decision to try to push people towards BD.

So it's not the same case scenario as LD suddenly appearing from the ether and offering an amazing amount of things never experienced or expected from VHS.

Basically, the current situation is that Disney is making the BD versions of movies like Up and Princess and the Frog the supplimental equvalent of what WOULD have been on the DVD had either:

1) BD never existed, or
2) BD exists, but Disney would still be commited to treating the DVD versions with the same respect they treated the format with in the past.

It's one thing to complain about other formats getting better treatment than yours if your format never got A-list treatment to begin with.

But what's happening now is clearly a different situation IMO, because the DVD releases are not living up to neither their potential as a format, or what they've been in the past.

To put it bluntly, leaving off the main "making of", several other featurettes, and the Art Gallery off of the PatF DVD - (features that could and should have been on the DVD, and WOULD have in the 2 numbered scenarios I listed above) is nothing less than Disney p***ing in the face of their loyal, longtime DVD buyers, and saying "this is what you get for not "going Blu".

And the irony is, I was completely neutral about BD before they started doing this. Admitedly, I had no plans to ever get it unless it were to take over since I'm happy with DVD, (just as I am happy with CD and felt no need to get Super Audio CD) but when I say neutral I mean I felt no negative vibes when I heard the word "blu-ray".

But now, because of Disney's hardball tactics, it does make me feel subconsious anomosity when I hear the word. Not against the format itself, but because of the way Disney is handling this, I feel more determined than ever to never "go blu"!

That's the great irony here. Tactics intended to make me embrace the new format are only pushing me further away from it. Had Disney not started this BS, who knows? Maybe in the future I'd buy a bigger TV and give BD a try, when I was ready to do so. But as it stands now, hell will have to freeze over and pigs fly first!

Having said that, I can honestly say I am am not inherently anti-BD, just EXTREMELY anti the way Disney is watering down their DVDs to hard-sell their new pet format.

Most importantly, I am PRO-DVD, and I want my DVDs to be the best they can possibly be, bonus-feature wise.

PS. Enigmawing, once again I would like to state this post is not meant to be an argument or negative towards you. The LD vs VHS comparison you made reminded me of thoughts I've been wanting to express regarding those comparisons, and the rest just flowed naturally from there

I actually agree with your comments. The funny thing is even with the BluRay push, Disney isn't even taking full advantage of that format either! I agree with REINIER when he pointed that fact out.

Basically, the company is shot to heck and we the loyal fan base don't matter to them. It's the saddest part about being a Disney fan, you get no respect form the company that houses the things you love. They disrespect you and spit in your face, but no that you'll let them do it all over again because you can't get enough of the Mouse.

jpanimation wrote:<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dfqDoet-Sr8&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dfqDoet-Sr8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I know this is off topic, but I am extremely annoyed by the way that guy is handling his LDs. He's extremely rough - I'm not sure he deserves to have all those lovely sets if he's going to treat them that way. And, I've stopped watching the video.

Also, I can barely understand a friggin' thing he's saying. Is it my non-Americanness to blame?

David S. wrote:Now I'll spare everyone the long and sordid history of how Disney's quality of DVD releases has gone gradually downhill since the dawn of "Disney Blu-Ray".

No, really, they were going downhill long before Blu-ray (although I accept you could argue that that was because HD in the form of Blu-ray or even HD-DVD was on the horizon, but I don't really accept that either.

Firstly, Disney's initial HD releases had less bonus features than their DVDs! Disney's first HD releases had specially shot "Blu-scapes" which had a unique selling point that they were in HD and therefore couldn't really be done on DVD with the same impact.

Secondly, Disney's still with-holding content from Blu-ray releases now. They're rarely the all-singing, all-dancing cornucopia of extras that they could be. When they did the new Nightmare Before Christmas all they could add was a 30 second introduction? Hardly something to get everyone dropping DVD and moving to Blu-ray.

So lets fast-forward to the Princess and the Frog DVD. I think deep down, everyone (regardless of if they are in the BD camp, DVD camp, or neutral) KNOWS intuitively, that features DVD buyers have come to expect as normal features - namely, "making of" documentaries, featurettes that compliment the "Making of", and Art Galleries would NOT have been witheld from the Princess and the Frog DVD, if it were not for Disney making a conscious decision to try to push people towards BD.

I do agree that lots of recent DVDs from Disney have been lame, and in the case of Princess and the Frog everything could easily have fitted on the DVD (or two DVDs if you wanted a Work-In-Progress version too). I'll also admit that if the footage exists, it hardly going to be much effort to put it on the DVDs - regardless of what anyone says, the Hyperion Studios content from Snow White BD could have been put on DVD. Sure it would have to be done with a slightly different navigation structure, but a simple menu would suffice - after all, you can choose to navigate with a simple menu on the BD if you desire it (and frankly I do - otherwise you end up with a Lion King like experience).

So it's not the same case scenario as LD suddenly appearing from the ether and offering an amazing amount of things never experienced or expected from VHS.

However, here is where we differ somewhat. I think that there are strong parallels to VHS, LD, the introduction of DVD and the current ubiquity of the DVD format and the introduction of Blu-ray.

LD was a premium format. In order to have a premium price point it has to offer something over the "normal" format. In many studios case this was done with supplemental features. In Disney's case, they often included exclusive high-quality hard-cover books too. LD was never as popular as VHS, DVD or even Blu-ray today, so a sweet spot was found for pricing and supplements which enabled Disney to make a profit and for collectors to feel that they were getting [reasonably] value for money.

Then DVD came along. It was priced as a premium over VHS, so again lots of DVDs had supplements. Many early DVDs actually had LD content ported across - no doubt cheap for the studios but offering value for money to early adopters who - generally - tended to be audio-visual fans and/or motion picture fans.

Sadly, as the format grew in popularity, the percentage of people who cared about the majority of the special features shrank. I've no doubt that Disney - ever mindful of profits - have done the surveys to show this. Thus, even before HD formats were released, the quality of supplements went down. We got 2-disc sets cut back to 1 disc sets (such as the US Tarzan re-release or the latter Vault Disney releases), we got films no longer released in twin-formats but full frame only (such as US The Country Bears) etc. I'm sure when doing this Disney knew exactly what they were doing.

Lets face it, Treasure Planet had a single disc DVD release when we were all expecting a double-DVD long before BD was anything but theory. If you ask me, this was the beginning of the end - Disney discovered you could release a single disc and sell just as many as expected - and the majority wouldn't complain. After all, if I recall correctly (but may be wrong) Treasure Planet flopped at the theatres, but sold incredibly well on DVD considering its low box office takings. Obviously few cared it was a single disc.

Now Blu-ray is out, there's a quandary for Disney. I doubt many titles sell enough copies to provide Disney with vast profits. But yes, Disney will be looking to build the format for profits in the future. But its also split the audience. if the percentage of DVD owners who cared about "non-fluffy" extras was small before, its even smaller now. I would imagine at least half of the audio/visual or movie fans that drove growth of the DVD market in the early days of that format have moved to Blu-ray. So from a pragmatic point of view, if only 10% (a number picked out of nowhere) of people care about supplements on DVD, is it worth putting them on, when an alternative format is available - an alternative format which you want to become the industry norm.

I'd also say, I think Disney want Blu-ray to become the norm not simply because they can resell their movies to you again - Disney are particularly apt at reselling DVDs to people who already own them as it is, but because piracy is considerably more difficult on Blu-ray discs - even if you have the equipment to rip a BD, the time required and size of files produced are somewhat impractical. Also, let's not forget Disney (and other studios) are having to spend perhaps millions of dollars on restorations of older films to get them in a format acceptable for distributing in HD. I think the argument that HD and/or Blu-ray is simply about more profits is somewhat simplistic and somewhat wrong.

If Disney simply wanted to maximise their profits they'd release DVDs full to the brim with supplements - LD ports and newly shot - now, as DVD starts to decline in popularity. It's cheaper for Disney to master SD content, cheaper to author the discs, cheaper to press the discs and the potential audience for each release is much larger. Therefore it would make logical sense that the profits from such a re-release would be much larger than a BD release.

Basically, the current situation is that Disney is making the BD versions of movies like Up and Princess and the Frog the supplimental equvalent of what WOULD have been on the DVD had either:

1) BD never existed, or
2) BD exists, but Disney would still be commited to treating the DVD versions with the same respect they treated the format with in the past.

It's one thing to complain about other formats getting better treatment than yours if your format never got A-list treatment to begin with.

Well, the last WDFA release - Bolt - had little on the DVD or the BD (if I recall correctly didn't the BD simply have a picture gallery extra?). Hardly Disney pushing the format aggressively. (Incidently, I understand authoring picture galleries is considerably simpler and efficient on Blu-ray over DVD according to a post on BR.Com a while back).

But what's happening now is clearly a different situation IMO, because the DVD releases are not living up to neither their potential as a format, or what they've been in the past.

To put it bluntly, leaving off the main "making of", several other featurettes, and the Art Gallery off of the PatF DVD - (features that could and should have been on the DVD, and WOULD have in the 2 numbered scenarios I listed above) is nothing less than Disney p***ing in the face of their loyal, longtime DVD buyers, and saying "this is what you get for not "going Blu".

But its what happens when you have a two-tier system of anything.

You have Windows XP? Vista/Windows 7, you get more features and more applications. Lots of new applications only run on XP, Vista or Windows 7, but I imagine could run on earlier versions of windows with little or minimal tweaking. But they're programmed to read the operating system and not run regardless.

You have a credit card? Only some offer added benefits, while also offering lower interest rates. Even those from the same bank have two levels of service, and its not always simple how you get assigned to one card or another (its not just about credit ratings).

In an ideal world, DVDs would have just as many video supplements as the Blu-ray releases, with Blu-ray "exclusives" being left to supplements best suited to the format (Picture in Picture, Interactive Internet tools such as Sony's MovieIQ, multi-streaming, BD-Java overlays etc). The problem is (and I'll admit this comes down to money) it no doubt costs more money to do all these, and the market place isn't big enough to support the investments at this time.

And the irony is, I was completely neutral about BD before they started doing this. Admitedly, I had no plans to ever get it unless it were to take over since I'm happy with DVD, (just as I am happy with CD and felt no need to get Super Audio CD) but when I say neutral I mean I felt no negative vibes when I heard the word "blu-ray".

But now, because of Disney's hardball tactics, it does make me feel subconsious anomosity when I hear the word. Not against the format itself, but because of the way Disney is handling this, I feel more determined than ever to never "go blu"!

But really, we could see this was happening before Blu-ray came along, and trust me, when Blu-ray is mainstream, it will have exactly the same pattern.

When looking at catalog Blu-ray titles were're currently we're probably a little behind what DVD was at the time. We're still basically ports of existing materials plus a few additional new supplements on most titles. Just like DVD had ports of LD materials. We're probably still mosty getting ports because unlike LD, there's a lot more content to port because DVD was more popular. But soon catalog BDs will move to having greater all-new supplements and, as the format becomes the norm and special features are less popular with the majority of the audience, we'll end up with fewer supplements or more EPK/fluffy/pointless promotional special features on BD discs.

LD benefited from the fact it NEVER went mainstream and was always just a collectors format. DVD is suffering because even before HD home video, it become simply the medium video was delivered to the mass audience. With Blu-ray its suffering more, because a large percentage of people who care about extras are moving to the HD format.

That's the great irony here. Tactics intended to make me embrace the new format are only pushing me further away from it. Had Disney not started this BS, who knows? Maybe in the future I'd buy a bigger TV and give BD a try, when I was ready to do so. But as it stands now, hell will have to freeze over and pigs fly first!

Having said that, I can honestly say I am am not inherently anti-BD, just EXTREMELY anti the way Disney is watering down their DVDs to hard-sell their new pet format.

Most importantly, I am PRO-DVD, and I want my DVDs to be the best they can possibly be, bonus-feature wise.

That seems a somewhat "cut off my nose to spite my face" type attitude. Regardless of home video formats, there's plenty of reasons for getting a HD display now; TV broadcasts, Cable/Satellite/Internet Movies on Demand, console gaming, ability to use TVs as PC monitors and/or streaming from PCs to televisions (video and pictures) and TVs and more.

The advent of Blu-ray isn't so much about killing DVD (but I'll admit it is a factor), its about keeping up with other technologies which not only threaten DVD but threaten home video in general. A common phrase I hear is nobody "needs" Blu-ray. True, and each and every one of us is capable of deciding if the investment in HD technology is worth our own expectations of the benefits. But I would argue the home video industry itself needs it for the reasons listed above.

PS. Enigmawing, once again I would like to state this post is not meant to be an argument or negative towards you. The LD vs VHS comparison you made reminded me of thoughts I've been wanting to express regarding those comparisons, and the rest just flowed naturally from there

And this isn't an attack on you, but simply an alternative point of view. I agree some of the business decisions are incredibly lame, but not all of them. For a start Disney's pricing of the majority of their combo releases are gob-smackingly competitive (in the US at least). While they're taking away with one hand, they are at least partly giving back with the other. Sure, I know these deals can't continue indefinitely, but Blu-ray has already significantly declined in price as a format (just as DVD's pricing declined at a similar rate since its release). DVD will obviously always be cheaper, but again, that brings up back to the two-tier argument and the need for a premium format.

----

As for Disney supporting LD, the only answer I can give is it was profitable for them. As has been noted, LD was considerably priced higher than VHS. I can only assume the profit-per-sale was carefully calculated to bring in significant revenue to make supporting the format viable.

I think the real question isn't why did Disney support LD so well, its why doesn't Disney support any home video format as well today. I think DVD releases like Dinosaur and Atlantis: The Lost Empire shows that Disney did once support DVD as passionately as they supported LD. But a few discs aside (recently probably Prince Caspian BD, Wall-E BD and DVD and UP BD) they haven't really. Most BDs have lots of bullet points on the back of the casing, but the supplements don't really add up to much - and every single one of us on this forum have noted how often the wrong supplements are promoted over more worthy ones (music videos and games often getting top billing over "making ofs" and other documentaries).

Also the new Toy Story BDs show the bottom is really being scraped when it comes to all-new extras - really, I'm sure there's still time/room/content for more meaningful discussions and content over discussing racing around the studio on scooters with crude animations. What about discussing the genesis of the Disney/Pixar partnership in more detail? What about Pixar actually acknowledging Disney's role in the story of Toy Story more? or Joss Wheldon's come to that? What about a proper feature on the merchandise released? Or in Toy Story 2, why not discuss the Buzz Lightyear TV series? Or give John Lasseter (or any other creator) a proper biography? Why not discuss improvements in the Renderman software between TS1 and TS2?

It's clear to me, Disney are afraid of alienating the child audience. Something they never had to worry about with LaserDisc with is limited market penetration and its astronomical pricing.

David: I was afraid I might be opening a can of worms when I was talking about having a hard time with the complaining. Thanks for not starting the argument I was afraid of sparking. I do know where you're coming from (I've enjoyed your posts as well, including this one I'm replying to) and I certainly think it's understandable to have a preference and find frustration over being denied material just because you haven't adopted the latest format. Perhaps I could have phrased myself a little differently . . . what I don't get is really the constant bickering and especially the elitism I keep seeing between those who take extremes on one side of the fence or the other (I won't be pointing any fingers here but I will say I've never seen you bicker or have an elitist attitude).

I think most would agree that Disney has been extremely inconsistent in their DVD releases over the years; they're quick to chuck out a poor release in the same breath as a fancy, more fully-packed set and even their most prestigious Platinum line is not without disappointments. While their DVD's were admittedly pretty bare-bones in the early days, we all know they eventually created fancier sets with various bonus features as the format evolved. But often the fancier collections were released either side-by-side with "standard" sets of the same title (Tarzan, The Emperor's New Groove, Atlantis, A Bug's Life, etc.) or as more fully-realized re-issues in later years (The Little Mermaid, Peter Pan, 101 Dalmatians, Pocahontas, The Jungle Book, Mulan, etc.). This also echos LD's when you compare differences between the CAV and CLV releases, right down to available bonus features and alternate cover art. Then again, some DVD re-issues and new sets in general definitely went downhill even when the format was supposedly at its peak.

Now see, I feel a very similar thing is happening today, but the catch is that there's a newer format slowly taking the place of the formerly established one. So rather than release two separate DVD versions as was often done in the past, Blu-ray has been added to the mix. It doesn't really make sense to release two different DVD versions in addition to a Blu-ray, nor does it make sense to release the same bonus features on the different formats in order to make them directly compete with each other (perhaps something they learned from the early days of blu-ray). So they've streamlined it down to one DVD version and one Blu-ray version (also adding the relatively new option of putting them together in combo packs) and are given opposite extremes as they're targeted toward very different demographics; one aimed for families and one for more serious collectors (most likely film enthusiasts or techno-geeks that have already moved on to HD). And the combo pack is a safe bet for anyone in-between.

For better or worse, I imagine it makes good business sense for them to concentrate on giving the Blu-rays all the fancier extras while giving the DVD's a more modest release. I'm not saying that such decisions should be popular with all parties involved (business decisions are all about the money and thus may not always seem fair to the consumer) but they have to find ways to entice people over to the more premium format they've invested so much into, and perhaps they feel justified in expecting those who want the extras to pay the price of adopting the latest format (despite what history their previous DVD releases might dictate) since many were willing to pay more for special editions in the past. How much different in concept is it than offering two very different DVD releases of the same film at the same time (ie, having to pay more for the 2-disc Tarzan Collector's Edition as opposed to the standard 1-disc edition)?

The introduction and pushing of a new format understandably causes conflict, especially with the hardcore Disney fans who grew accustomed to having packed DVD releases available (as an alternative to the cheaper barebones), only to see them whither away in favor of discs that you have to buy a whole new player for. But at least all your previous DVD's are compatible with Blu-ray players if you choose to purchase one.

So yes, I understand how it's frustrating and why it can push one away. As for myself . . . perhaps I've become a bit jaded? I'm not really trying to defend them, but it's kinda sad that at the same time I'm finding it more and more difficult to care. So why is it getting harder for me to care? Even before the rise of HD, bonus features had been getting more disappointing and sparse over time, and honestly? I'm finding myself more invested in the films themselves instead of whatever extras they may or may not have packed in (at least I have my Disney art books, which tend to be a lot more informative than the DVD's are anymore).

It's also well worth noting that many Blu-ray players currently cost less than half of what my first DVD player did. And considering that I was able to pick up the DVD/Blu-ray combo pack of The Princess and the Frog for only $2.88 today, and will be picking up both the combo packs for Toy Story 1 & 2 on Tuesday for about $4 total? We have brand-new Blu-ray and DVD sets several times cheaper than any stand-alone DVD releases from Disney, and that's just too insane to pass up. I know these awesome deals won't be around forever, but Blu-ray's becoming more affordable even without the special deals. I'm certainly not telling anyone else what they should do, but as for myself? I can't hold any loyalties to DVD just because it's "good enough" for me (which it is) or because it encompasses the majority of my collection, or even because I feel Disney is mistreating the older format in order to attract people to the new. IMO, what I'm doing by opening up to the new format is simply common sense.

And honestly, while the push for Blu-ray has definitely taken away from recent DVD features, I believe they were going downhill well before Disney got involved with the format anyway; in its heyday DVD couldn't even keep up with what LD once had to offer. And does anyone remember the supposed reasoning behind why Disney temporarily abandoned 2-disc DVD sets a few years back? Apparently soccer moms were complaining that the additional disc was enticing their kid to play with and potentially break their DVD players. Yet another example of where Disney's priorities lie . . . Disney knows they can sell their movies just on their name alone, even without the plethora of features the hardcore fans would like to see . . . the majority of their sales are from families with children that couldn't give a rat's *ss about commentaries, galleries, documentaries, storyboards, etc. Now games and music videos with Disney Channel stars, on the other hand . . . sigh . . .

Anyway, no worries . . . I'm not taking anything you've said a a personal argument or anything, I can understand where you're coming from and hope you can take a few cents from me as well.

Netty,

That was quite possibly the most-cogent, well-thought-out, well-written, and entertaining post I have ever read on these boards.



Wowser. Fantastic job!

TLK

It's not really anywhere but we shouldn't really analyze Disney.
They don't show any consistency and are hardly worth any thought.
It's a bunch of random decisions.
Look at Bolt. Did very well and didn't get a commentary? What?

Oh and I f***ing hate soccer moms. I'm scared my child will break my player. Teach them to operate it you f***ing brainless bitches.

The way I view the debate is that Blu-Ray is the successor to DVD, it was either going to be Blu-Ray or HD-DVD and Blu-Ray won out. You can't expect to get all the latest programs if your still on Windows 2000, you can't expect to get all the latest games if you still only have a PS2, this is how I view the debate - you can't expect to get all the latest movies (you have been lucky thus far) or all the extras if you are still on DVD.

2099net wrote:
No, really, they were going downhill long before Blu-ray (although I accept you could argue that that was because HD in the form of Blu-ray or even HD-DVD was on the horizon, but I don't really accept that either.

But it hadn't gotten as bad as things are now, DVD-wise. I don't think it's a coincidence that the first Pixar film to not get a packed 2-disc DVD edition was the first to also be released on BD (Cars). Ironically, WALL-E did get a two disc, but that's my least favorite Pixar! Cars, Ratatouille and Up, which I LOVE, all got the shaft. Also, there's no way Princess and the Frog would have had the Making Of AND Art Gallery witheld from the DVD if those features were finished and ready to go for a new DAC DVD in the pre-BD days, even when they started getting cheap about the 2-disc sets. After all, those could have been included now and the release kept to one disc.

Secondly, Disney's still with-holding content from Blu-ray releases now. They're rarely the all-singing, all-dancing cornucopia of extras that they could be. When they did the new Nightmare Before Christmas all they could add was a 30 second introduction? Hardly something to get everyone dropping DVD and moving to Blu-ray.

But that was what, a year or more ago? Things have gotten much worse since then as to what's being left off the DVD versions. I'll admit, if I was a BD fan, I'd feel like the releases could be more packed than they are. But that wouldn't frustrate me as much as KNOWING stuff could have fit that ALREADY exists, such as leaving things off the DVD that are on the BD and could have fit on the DVD.

I do agree that lots of recent DVDs from Disney have been lame, and in the case of Princess and the Frog everything could easily have fitted on the DVD (or two DVDs if you wanted a Work-In-Progress version too). I'll also admit that if the footage exists, it hardly going to be much effort to put it on the DVDs - regardless of what anyone says, the Hyperion Studios content from Snow White BD could have been put on DVD. Sure it would have to be done with a slightly different navigation structure, but a simple menu would suffice - after all, you can choose to navigate with a simple menu on the BD if you desire it (and frankly I do - otherwise you end up with a Lion King like experience).

Thanks for acknowledging that. I appreciated it when you called Disney out on that in the past as well, even though you're a BD adapter. You didn't take the popular BD fan approach and just say "get over it" or something like that.

Well, the last WDFA release - Bolt - had little on the DVD or the BD (if I recall correctly didn't the BD simply have a picture gallery extra?). Hardly Disney pushing the format aggressively. (Incidently, I understand authoring picture galleries is considerably simpler and efficient on Blu-ray over DVD according to a post on BR.Com a while back).

Well, that didn't stop Disney from offering Art Galleries (one of my fave features) on their animation DVDs for years. But you're right, that was the only substantial extra left off Bolt, as far as I know. But that was last year. Disney has upped the ante on the most recent Pixar and DAC releases (Up and Princess) for how far they are willing to go in propping up BD at DVDs expense by leaving things off. So now we have, on both of those, more than half of the features missing from the DVD versions!

In an ideal world, DVDs would have just as many video supplements as the Blu-ray releases, with Blu-ray "exclusives" being left to supplements best suited to the format (Picture in Picture, Interactive Internet tools such as Sony's MovieIQ, multi-streaming, BD-Java overlays etc). The problem is (and I'll admit this comes down to money) it no doubt costs more money to do all these, and the market place isn't big enough to support the investments at this time.

Well, the DVD market is still big enough. Despite the hype of DVD sales REVENUE going down, more UNITS were actually sold on DVD in 2009 than 2008! And inspite of all the underhanded tactics to prop up BD at DVDs expense - leaving off features, the delayed release of Snow White, misleading packaging, etc. BD sales are still hovering around the 7 to 8 percent of the market range.

That seems a somewhat "cut off my nose to spite my face" type attitude. Regardless of home video formats, there's plenty of reasons for getting a HD display now; TV broadcasts, Cable/Satellite/Internet Movies on Demand, console gaming, ability to use TVs as PC monitors and/or streaming from PCs to televisions (video and pictures) and TVs and more.

Not really. Because like I said, I wasn't interested in getting BD before Disney's tactics soured me on it, anyway. I would have been more open-minded about it, but most likely stuck with DVD just as I stuck with regular CD over SACD. As for the leaving the features off, trust me, I'll find a way to get those BD-exclusive extras in my collection, down-converted to DVD (not including Cine-Explore and things DVD can't support) without crawling to Disney and their pet new format! If Disney wants to make money from me on those features, release a quality DVD, fellas.

They'll even make less off of me on the DVDs I do buy, because when I do get around to getting Up and Princess on DVD, I'll buy used from a chain that carries used, and won't feel like Disney is ripping me off so much on those titles, since I'll be paying less and more importantly, Disney won't be getting my money! Also, since Disney has gotten too cheap to include chapter inserts in the discs, buying used is now a lot easier because now you just need to make sure the disc isn't scratched and don't have to worry about whether the insert is missing.

And I should have worded myself better. Disney hasn't soured me on eventually getting an HD display; just on getting BD along with it!

And this isn't an attack on you, but simply an alternative point of view.

Ditto!

I agree some of the business decisions are incredibly lame, but not all of them. For a start Disney's pricing of the majority of their combo releases are gob-smackingly competitive (in the US at least). While they're taking away with one hand, they are at least partly giving back with the other.

True, but only for those who "go blu", or plan to in the future.

enigmawing wrote:
Now see, I feel a very similar thing is happening today, but the catch is that there's a newer format slowly taking the place of the formerly established one. So rather than release two separate DVD versions as was often done in the past, Blu-ray has been added to the mix. It doesn't really make sense to release two different DVD versions in addition to a Blu-ray, nor does it make sense to release the same bonus features on the different formats in order to make them directly compete with each other (perhaps something they learned from the early days of blu-ray). So they've streamlined it down to one DVD version and one Blu-ray version (also adding the relatively new option of putting them together in combo packs) and are given opposite extremes as they're targeted toward very different demographics; one aimed for families and one for more serious collectors (most likely film enthusiasts or techno-geeks that have already moved on to HD). And the combo pack is a safe bet for anyone in-between.

I get what you're saying, but they could have one DVD release and one BD release like you said without taking SOOO much away from both the Up and PatF DVD. They could have let the BD exclusive extras be things that only BD could support, not traditional featurettes about the production of the movie that deserves to be on the DVD. I guess I'm not in either "target market" because I'm a film enthusiast who is sticking with DVD, but this is nothing new for me. I tend to be a maverick sort who slips through the cracks, follows my own instincts, and often ends up not being a "target market" Hmm, I think that's a chapter title in the novel Generation X - "I am not a target market"!

For better or worse, I imagine it makes good business sense for them to concentrate on giving the Blu-rays all the fancier extras while giving the DVD's a more modest release. I'm not saying that such decisions should be popular with all parties involved (business decisions are all about the money and thus may not always seem fair to the consumer) but they have to find ways to entice people over to the more premium format they've invested so much into, and perhaps they feel justified in expecting those who want the extras to pay the price of adopting the latest format (despite what history their previous DVD releases might dictate) since many were willing to pay more for special editions in the past. How much different in concept is it than offering two very different DVD releases of the same film at the same time (ie, having to pay more for the 2-disc Tarzan Collector's Edition as opposed to the standard 1-disc edition)?

The introduction and pushing of a new format understandably causes conflict, especially with the hardcore Disney fans who grew accustomed to having packed DVD releases available (as an alternative to the cheaper barebones), only to see them whither away in favor of discs that you have to buy a whole new player for. But at least all your previous DVD's are compatible with Blu-ray players if you choose to purchase one.

Which could work out to be a thorn in BDs side, since that gives people who DO adopt to the format (who are still, by the way, a HUGE minority outside of fan communities) MUCH less incentive to replace their collection on BD like they did from VHS to DVD. And if a lot of DVD fans like me adopt a strategy of buying used whenever Disney screws over the DVD fans on a release, or doing a "rent and rip", we'll see how their cold-hearted business strategy pays off!

It's also well worth noting that many Blu-ray players currently cost less than half of what my first DVD player did. And considering that I was able to pick up the DVD/Blu-ray combo pack of The Princess and the Frog for only $2.88 today, and will be picking up both the combo packs for Toy Story 1 & 2 on Tuesday for about $4 total? We have brand-new Blu-ray and DVD sets several times cheaper than any stand-alone DVD releases from Disney, and that's just too insane to pass up. I know these awesome deals won't be around forever, but Blu-ray's becoming more affordable even without the special deals. I'm certainly not telling anyone else what they should do, but as for myself? I can't hold any loyalties to DVD just because it's "good enough" for me (which it is) or because it encompasses the majority of my collection, or even because I feel Disney is mistreating the older format in order to attract people to the new. IMO, what I'm doing by opening up to the new format is simply common sense.

But you can't watch those "exclusive" bonus features you got on those combo pack releases now. You have to wait until you buy a player. And maybe you would have never gotten around to getting a player, but having stuff in your collection that Disney has decided can only be watched on a BD player might make you want one more. That's what they are hoping for.

If I were in that position, I would resent having stuff in my collection that I can't watch because of some stupid business decision to promote a still-niche format I have no interest in, that 90 percent of the population has so far said "no thanks" to!

Luckilly, there are ways for you to watch that stuff and have it downconverted to DVD without having to buy a BD player, though....

And honestly, while the push for Blu-ray has definitely taken away from recent DVD features, I believe they were going downhill well before Disney got involved with the format anyway; in its heyday DVD couldn't even keep up with what LD once had to offer. And does anyone remember the supposed reasoning behind why Disney temporarily abandoned 2-disc DVD sets a few years back? Apparently soccer moms were complaining that the additional disc was enticing their kid to play with and potentially break their DVD players. Yet another example of where Disney's priorities lie . . . Disney knows they can sell their movies just on their name alone, even without the plethora of features the hardcore fans would like to see . . . the majority of their sales are from families with children that couldn't give a rat's *ss about commentaries, galleries, documentaries, storyboards, etc. Now games and music videos with Disney Channel stars, on the other hand . . . sigh . . .

While I don't doubt that the "soccer moms" could care less about bonus features, I always viewed their alledged complaints as an excuse by Disney to cut down production costs, and later to mask their true motives of making the DVDs less attractive with enthusiasts and collectors in order to prop up BD.

Anyway, no worries . . . I'm not taking anything you've said a a personal argument or anything, I can understand where you're coming from and hope you can take a few cents from me as well.

Well, I do have some different opinions, but I do appreciate that you and Netty responded in an intelligent fashion instead of using the type of condescending anti-DVD arguments and attacks that were very common on these boards during the Pinocchio review controversy. You guys are good posters, so I knew you wouldn't do that

yamiiguy wrote:
The way I view the debate is that Blu-Ray is the successor to DVD, it was either going to be Blu-Ray or HD-DVD and Blu-Ray won out. You can't expect to get all the latest programs if your still on Windows 2000, you can't expect to get all the latest games if you still only have a PS2, this is how I view the debate - you can't expect to get all the latest movies (you have been lucky thus far) or all the extras if you are still on DVD.

I would agree IF BD had overtaken DVD in sales, but it's not even close. Right now, BD is at around 8 percent of the market. It's up to "We the People" to decide if BD is going to be the "successor" to DVD or remain a niche product, and so far, most people (outside of fan communities) have NOT embraced BD. This is fact. It still hasn't "won out" over DVD yet, in terms of mass acceptance. And I will do my part as one consumer to help keep it that way!

But BD will not achieve success without exclusive features, when a new games console comes out it has exclusive titles available to it, regardless if the majority of people have a different console.

That's a different industry/product, though. They'll probably keep trying to skimp on DVD bonus features, but if they try to leave releases altogether off the DVD format before DVD sales are truly the minority (which is a long time from happening, if it ever even does), then they're just throwing money away.

David your point about Disney masking the reason it's releases are lacking by using the soccer mum excuse is plausible but by adding that part about BR it kind of fails because maybe you haven't noticed but even keeping an art gallery off the SD release doesn't make the BR release any better without a commentary (Bolt). Even Up, Cars and Ratatouille have almost barebones releases compared to older Pixar releases.

It's not like they don't have anything because the UK release for Ratatouille (2 disc DVD edition a year later) had some exclusive features not on either DVD or BR before. I mean, if they have all of these backed up features why not release them? Holding out is corporate Disney and the company as a whole deserve to be burnt at the stake.

Still, even if you're against BR, Disney are making incredibly valuable combo packs and sure you don't want to buy them because you won't use them but if it's cheaper to buy the combo pack than the DVD it's pretty stupid not to buy it. Before you complain, think about it, Disney are making less money selling a combo pack because they are packing two separate releases (BR, DVD) into one and selling it at a cheaper price than either. So, underhand it may be, but it's still a very good deal with you, the consumer in mind.