DVDizzy Forum

Siren wrote:Frankly, I think pedophiles should get an automatic death sentence.

Frankly, I think people like you are the reason I'm glad we don't have a jury-system and judges aren't elected in The Netherlands. And I'm glad we don't have the death penalty.

I agree. I'm totally against the death penalty in all cases. Why reduce your government to a murderer's level? Besides, in cases like pedos..... It's better to let them suffer in solitary confinement for as long as they live.

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Cost effective, sure. But who is the government to decide who lives and who dies? Revenge is petty. Sure, it can be comforting to think about, but it's really a savage, brutish thing. Killing is not good, whether it is sanctioned by the government or not. A world in which financial concerns are deemed more important than humanity is a cold, twisted place. It's a very mercenary way of thinking. And if everyone thought that way, it'd be a pretty grim existence for most people.

Margos wrote:Cost effective, sure. But who is the government to decide who lives and who dies? Revenge is petty. Sure, it can be comforting to think about, but it's really a savage, brutish thing. Killing is not good, whether it is sanctioned by the government or not. A world in which financial concerns are deemed more important than humanity is a cold, twisted place. It's a very mercenary way of thinking. And if everyone thought that way, it'd be a pretty grim existence for most people.

The government doesn't decide in the USA. The people do. A jury of our peers weighs all evidence and 12 people decide. So though the government decided to allow the euthanasia of criminals, its the people who decide on a case by case basis if someone should live or die.

And sorry, its my tax dollars. I rather see tax dollars go to homeless shelters and not prisons. If you think they deserve to live, then by all means, donate to them.

I'm not generally a supporter of the death penalty, but in serious cases where there is incontrovertible evidence that the person in question did the crime (no, oops we thought they did it and just wasted 40 yrs of their life), I'm not bothered by the prospect of them being put to death. This is also making sure that they have no true psychological issues, it wasn't a crime of passion, etc.

Honestly, I don't understand this whole idea that it's bad to put to death a murderer (or something equally bad, such as a rapist or pedophile). Is this a Disney forum? Doesn't that happen to 3/4ths of Disney's villains? All we're doing is paying for them to sit around until they die regardless.

More on-topic though, I'm honestly not surprised to hear of a lot of pedophiles showing up around Disney. It's like kid-central.

The people decide whether someone is guilty or not. And sometimes, they are wrong. I would much rather see a guilty man supported in jail for many years than an innocent one killed.

And it's not a matter of deserving to live or not. It is not for any person to decide who "deserves to live" or not, because there is not one person in this world who is universally beloved. There are people I know who feel that I do not deserve to live. I am sure that there are people in your life who feel the same way about you.

I can think of no better way to spend tax dollars than to keep people alive. It's certainly better than all the money America's been wasting on killing people (aka "National Defense").

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Look, I guess I can't get through to you either, Siren. But nothing will ever change what happened to you. Will seeing two people dead make it OK? If they die, will it make you un-raped? Will it take away your pain, or make it so you were never traumatized? NO. You'll still have that horrible experience. The only difference is that they will be dead.

In fact, think about it this way: If they got life in prison, they'd have to live long lives knowing what they did. Perhaps remorse would set in. They'd live with that guilt, just as you live with the pain of what they did. And they'd know that. If they're dead, then they would not care anymore. They'd be free, because there is a freedom that comes with death. The dead can't feel remorse, and can't "live" with torment in their souls. They'd be at peace. You wouldn't be.

And Fido is put to sleep to ease his pain. He's probably been chronically ill, and his owners hate to see him suffer. So they give him that nice, peaceful death. Is that what you want for your rapists, Siren?

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Margos, there are times in which you really shouldn't comment on a person's tragedies, not even for the sake of a discussion, because then you end up looking worse and worse.

You are right in that killing the rapists wouldn't change the past, but it does put an end to a tragic episode. Justice is made. The bad guys got punished while the good guys saw some form of redemption.

I may be seriously mistaken, but I was under the impression that the United States was founded on the belief of justice, freedom and happiness, and that if a person dared to violate that sanctuary he or she would get severely punished. What the justice system is doing now is jumping around the gun, trying to find the blame, making up excuses for the criminal's behavior and often denying the victim's rights. THAT'S what I think Siren is talking about.

It isn't about erasing the past, its about feeling that despite all the wrong that happened for one moment something went right. People got what they deserved and we can rest knowing that there is justice and good in the word.

But really, we are now diving into an extremely touchy subject and its just making everyone look bad.

Yeah, I guess I can understand where you're coming from. But, may I share a story? This is something I've never told anyone.... But it should be sort of familiar to anyone who's read To Kill a Mockingbird.

My dad is not my biological dad, but he's always taken care of me and loved me like a real father. He and my mother divorced when I was two, and he remarried. His wife, my stepmom, is a wonderful human being. Her family, however, has some pretty sick people in it. Including her niece.
This girl, kind of pretty, blonde and blue-eyed, claimed that my dad, a big strong black man, raped her. She said he had done it months ago, and she hadn't told earlier, because she was ashamed. Of course, "it had happened so long ago," that no evidence could be gathered. My dad had, years ago, had a history with drugs, that he did quit. He has completely reformed, but that past was a strike against him. His lawyers advised him to plead guilty, and he was in jail for a while. No jury would ever take his side over that little bitch's.

He's free now, and he's never spoken of the incident to me. No, I learned about it through my family, who now view him with suspicion. But I know my dad, and he never would have done anything like that. He's a sweet guy, a real upstanding man. He loves his family, and is a really good father. He's gone through rough times, but through sheer strength of spirit and determination, has turned his life around completely. And now this kind of shit happens.

What if he hadn't pleaded guilty? What if he had been given the death penalty for "pedophilia," since the girl was under eighteen at the time? My dad was innocent. It makes me feel sick to my stomach that this could happen, that anyone could have even thought he'd do such a thing. And they really did think that he did. I'm sure that that's happened many times, and I don't want to see any innocent people killed.

So I don't want to see anyone killed. Sure, maybe they really are guilty. But what if they weren't? What if, like my dad, they were just a victim of circumstance? Maybe I'm being too kind to the criminals for thinking this way. But I know for a fact that not all "rapists" have ever raped anyone.

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I'm not strongly opinionated on the death penalty (although I believe it's definitely suitable in certain, extreme cases) but as a victim myself I do feel that pedophiles (that have been proven beyond a doubt) should never be allowed near children for the rest of their lives.

And whether that time is spent in a mental hospital, prison, or even if the person is put to death . . . well, each case is individual. And as much as the many, many incidents of being molested screwed up my life far beyond my childhood, I personally don't feel my attacker, a "trusted" family member, deserved to die. He definitely needed some mental help and shouldn't have ever been allowed to be with children ever again. He passed away of natural causes while I was still in high school, and I still find myself wondering if I was his only victim (I was not his only grandchild). And once again, I didn't feel he deserved to die over it, but at the same time I cried in relief upon hearing the news that cancer had taken him.

I should probably note that I was too afraid to reveal what had happened until many years after he was gone, so he got away with it. I should have spoken up earlier but didn't know how. Once again, I feel each case is different. Fortunately I've had time to [mostly] heal and come to terms with what happened; when I was younger I actually didn't know better and blamed myself.

All of the pain and uncertainty he brought to my life was so unnecessary. I pray for the victims in this case; not only should the criminal properly pay for what he has done to their lives, I hope they can find a way to properly heal.


*EDIT*

Siren, I hope you don't think in any way that I was belittling what you've gone through or how you feel about anything mentioned in this thread; sometimes it helps to just share our own experiences and find ways to relate. I'm sorry for what happened and wanted you to know that you're not alone. *hugs*

Siren wrote:You really are saying some really hurtful things. I know you have no clue you did, but believe me. You did. Please, stop while you are ahead.

Look, I'm terribly sorry if I have upset you in any way, that certainly wasn't my intention. But you've been saying some pretty upsetting things, too. I want to drop the issue here, and bury the hatchet and whatnot. We're never going to agree about this.

Siren wrote:And there are criminals out there who totally admit to what they did, plead guilty, are proud of their dirty work, so there is no mistaking it.

That's true. What those people need is called "psychological help." They are obviously unbalanced, unstable people, but there is a chance that they can be helped and redeemed. They could become productive members of society instead of corpses, if someone was willing to give them the counseling (and probably medication) that they need. Or really, just placing them in a mental institution. Because if they're insane (and someone that is that proud of a heinous crime would have to be), jail is probably not the place for them to begin with.

Okay, I know I'm not a forum moderator or administrator or whatever but someone's gotta say it...

According to the heading above: this is a Disney Discussion forum.

And I'm starting to get really uncomfortable with sensitive political debates like pedophilia being discussed in a forum that's supposed to be about Disney. Our opinions and debate on this topic should be distanced as far away from something that is family-centric like Disney as humanly possible...

...preferably to the Off-Topic forums thank you very much.

I just wanted to let Margos know I side with her.

I think the death penalty is doing evil to evil. Someone does evil to you, so you to evil to them, and so everyone does evil and the world is...

If you live, you can go on and heal or change to good. The victims can live on to heal, the attackers and murderers can live on to heal/change/repent/get forgiveness.

And like Margos said, there are people who could now or someday think any one of us should die.

By the way Disney's Divinity, most villain deaths are self defense or their own doing.

Siren wrote:I'm sorry you feel "people like me" are a big problem. When you have several members, myself included, who have been victims of pedophiles and rapists, wishing them dead is a comforting thought.

Sure it's a comforting thought. It doesn't make it right, though. The fact that you are a victim doesn't mean basic human rights have to be violated.

Siren wrote:BTW, keeping them alive costs money. Lots of money.

How do you mean? You give them their rightful sentence, and once they've done their time, they have to make it on their own again in society (at least, that's how it works in my country).

Siren wrote:Our jails are so overcrowded to keep them all alive there simply isn't enough money and man power to do it. If solitary confinement was so bad, they would all be asking for an injection...The USA anyways has a messed up jail system. Cable tv, weight rooms, etc. Heck, one of my cousins, when ever he is homeless, he holds up a convenience store and goes to jail just so he can get meals and bulk up again.

No, that's not true. You know why jails are so overcrowded? Because you lock up so many people (mostly young men) for just possessing little amounts of drugs, for their own use. They don't deal, they just use, yet they still get thrown in jail. It's ridiculous, they're not harming anybody. Another reason are the absurd high and severe sentences in general in the USA. The average penalty is in the USA is in no proportion to the crime. But since a lot of judges are elected, they have to give out high sentences to appease the blood-thirst of the electorate. And does that make the country any safer? The answer is no. Yet another reason: many prisons in the US are owned by private companies. They make profit of the backs of the inmates. They need their prisons filled. The US incarcerates almost five times as many people as tolerant, benevolent China...

Your story about prison-conditions sound like something I expect from a European. Although they would still not be true, I could see some merit in them, since European (Western-European) prisons do confirm to basic human rights standards. Which is more than I can say about American prisons, which can compete with many Third World prisons.

Siren wrote:Why kill serious criminals? Its cost effective.

It's also unethical, irreversible (like that innocent man in Texas that got executed... oops!) and a thing of the Middle Ages (and places like Saudi Arabia).

Siren wrote:The government doesn't decide in the USA. The people do. A jury of our peers weighs all evidence and 12 people decide. So though the government decided to allow the euthanasia of criminals, its the people who decide on a case by case basis if someone should live or die.

And you really think juries aren't being manipulated? The way the juries are being put together is one big manipulation. Why do you think many more poor, black people are being send to prison than rich, white people? Because they don't have the access to the good, expensive lawyers and have to accept uninterested, underpaid and overworked govenment lawyers.

I'm sorry to say, it seems you are very ignorant about your country's corrupt and racist justice system.

Siren wrote:And sorry, its my tax dollars. I rather see tax dollars go to homeless shelters and not prisons. If you think they deserve to live, then by all means, donate to them.

If you want to see your tax dollars go to homeless shelters, begin to demand the military budget getting slain by at least 90%. Over 50% of your country's budget is spend on the military, more than all the other countries in the world *combined*. So don't give me the pathetic "my tax dollars" excuse.

Siren wrote:So if given the choice...our tax money would go to....keeping homeless shelters open to give food and shelter to those less fortunate, US veterans, and the handicap

Your money doesn't go there anyway! Those people you name are already getting treated like shit by the government, and not because your precious tax dollars go to "the criminals", but because they're spend in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You should really do some serious reading on the way the government works before you spout some reactionary "tax dollars" rant again.

I'm truly very sorry for what you've been through (I have had friends who experienced the same), but you're also an example of why emotions should be kept out of the courtroom.

Disney's Divinity wrote:I'm not generally a supporter of the death penalty, but in serious cases where there is incontrovertible evidence that the person in question did the crime (no, oops we thought they did it and just wasted 40 yrs of their life), I'm not bothered by the prospect of them being put to death.

There are no such cases.

Disney's Divinity wrote:Honestly, I don't understand this whole idea that it's bad to put to death a murderer (or something equally bad, such as a rapist or pedophile). Is this a Disney forum? Doesn't that happen to 3/4ths of Disney's villains?

Yes, that's always a good idea: basing your morality and your justice system on animated films.

pap64 wrote:Margos, there are times in which you really shouldn't comment on a person's tragedies, not even for the sake of a discussion, because then you end up looking worse and worse.

I disagree. If Siren didn't want her (his?) personal tragedies to be commented upon, she (he?) shouldn't have mentioned them on a public discussion forum.

pap64 wrote:You are right in that killing the rapists wouldn't change the past, but it does put an end to a tragic episode. Justice is made. The bad guys got punished while the good guys saw some form of redemption.

That depends on your definition of 'justice'. I don't see any justice in state-sanctioned MURDER.

pap64 wrote:I may be seriously mistaken, but I was under the impression that the United States was founded on the belief of justice, freedom and happiness,

For a very small circle of rich white people it was/is!

pap64 wrote:What the justice system is doing now is jumping around the gun, trying to find the blame, making up excuses for the criminal's behavior and often denying the victim's rights. THAT'S what I think Siren is talking about.

In the USA?? You must have lost touch with reailty.

Goliath wrote:I disagree. If Siren didn't want her personal tragedies to be commented upon, he shouldn't have mentioned them on a public discussion forum.

This is true. I'm not some sort of heartless person (for example, I don't much fancy killing human beings), so I wouldn't normally comment on a person's tragedies. However, when someone brings something up as something relevant to the issue at hand, that is an issue that is fair game to be discussed. She went there, I was merely following her lead.

It would have been wrong had I already known, and pulled it out of nowhere with some tasteless comment. But since she is the one who has informed us all, and has brought it up in this conversation (numerous times, may I add) as something relevant, she shouldn't mind the fact that it's being discussed.