DVDizzy Forum

Hi guys,

I've chosen to post these questions on here because you all seem to be pretty opinionated on Disney and i'd like to know how you feel about my chosen coursework subjects.
Don't get me wrong, i'm a huge fan of Disney which is why i've chosen to study this subject!

My Media Studies A2 coursework title is: The Representation of Women in Disney's Feature Animation.
My Film Studies A2 coursework title is: Disney's Feature Animation pre and post 9/11

If you'd be happy to answer just some of these questions i'd be really grateful...
1.Do you think the portrayal of the Disney Princess is considered to be the stereotype of the 'ideal' woman?
2. Would you perceive the Disney Princess's to be Heroines? And why?
3. Do you think women are represented truthfully in Disney's feature animation?
4. Who is your favourite Disney Princess? And Why?
5. Do you think the Princess's would be idolised so much if they weren't beautiful?
6. Do you think the representation of Step Mothers sets a good example to children watching Cinderella?


7. Do you think that Disney is a world of escapism or realism?
8. In your opinion, does the film Enchanted offer a realistic view of New York?


Thank you!

Hello there! I'll try and answer your questions...

1.Do you think the portrayal of the Disney Princess is considered to be the stereotype of the 'ideal' woman?
Of course they are. Looks aside (they almost always have good looks, by the way), whether they are domestic goddesses or feisty girls, they pretty much embody female beauty. It could easily be said that the Disney women embody a popular image of female beauty of the respective era; the Blue Fairy from Pinocchio looks like a Hollywood diva circa 1939/40, Tinker Bell looks like a Marilyn Monroe figure and Ariel has spunky traits of a brat-pack teenage.

2. Would you perceive the Disney Princess's to be Heroines? And why?
Well, I think the question should be "why does Disney call all their heroines princesses?", in all honesty. I don't remember Alice being the queen of anywhere, nor Mulan, nor Tinker Bell.

Joking aside, I'd call them heroines. Of course, some of the earlier princesses are extremely passive (Snow White, Aurora etc), but they have enough winning traits to be classed as heroines; essentially, they're kind, perfect characters with whom one can sympathise. The 90s heroines are generally more pragmatic; Belle is most certainly a heroine, since she ends up saving the Beast. Pocahontas is also a strong heroine, as she helps to ease the racial tensions between the English settlers and the natives, and Mulan goes to war and saves the whole of China. At the very least, the princesses of any area are protagonists (Jasmine aside, since she's a supporting character in Aladdin's movie).

3. Do you think women are represented truthfully in Disney's feature animation?
I think it truly depends. Obviously, the stories of the Disney films are relatively simple, especially the ones based on old fairy-tales and fantasy stories, so whilst women may not be truthfully presented, neither are the men. The villains, both male and female ones, rarely show any sign of realism, as they are almost always larger than life characters. The post-Walt era female characters (well, characters in films from The Little Mermaid onwards) do tend to be more realistic than the Walt era characters to modern audiences as they are more strong willed. It must be said that that probably has more to do with updating traditional values and stories in the light of feminism and the social upheaval of the 1960s; I'm sure the passive, stay-at-home nature of Cinderella and Snow White would have seemed less out of touch when they were originally released.

4. Who is your favourite Disney Princess? And Why?
Hmm...I'm not quite sure. I'd go with a three way tie with Cinderella, Ariel and Mulan. Ariel is brimming with innocence and fresh youth, whilst Mulan is essentially an imperfect, underdog character who ends up doing something better due to not quite fitting in. And Cinderella is perhaps the easiest character to emphasize and sympathise with, and is just generally beautiful and elegant.

5. Do you think the Princesses would be idolised so much if they weren't beautiful?
I think that, by nature, people are attracted to the more beautiful things in life, so the fact that they are stunners to begin with is to their vantage point...

6. Do you think the representation of Step Mothers sets a good example to children watching Cinderella?
You've got to remember the origins of the film. Cinderella is a fairy-tale, which were originally folk-tales circulated by word of mouth from generation to generation and location to location, somewhat tweaked here and there depending on where you were to go. Yet through it all, the stories had messages, which were intended to speak to both the young and old listener. Obviously, the messages were metaphorical; a wolf can't dress up as a grandmother and there isn't such a thing as a magic mirror. Yet deep down inside, they have real messages that really speak to the soul. For example, with Little Red Riding Hood, the message isn't really "don't stop to have conversations with wolves" but rather "think what the consequences of speaking with strangers might just have" and/or "be weary of the smooth talkers in this world". There have been many psycho-analytical studies on fairy-tales (the most famous being Bruno Bettelheim's The Uses of Enchantment, which is okay were it not for overly Freudian analysis and use of comparing everything to genitalia and sex ), which seem to support the idea that fairy-tales are good for children in that they can help prepare children for the dangers and perils of life (from dangerous suitors to the tax man) in a light-hearted and fantastical way. Essentially, a lot of the greatest fairy-tale characters are caricatures of real-life figures.

Naturally, Cinderella poses a problem as the villains are figures that one could easily meet in reality. Whilst this could cause distrust of general parental figures, I view the evil stepmother as a representation of a person who enters people's lives suddenly and is cruel to no end - just like all the bullies in the playground, the obnoxious colleague or boss at work or the heartless authority figure. The stepmother is one of the most powerful Disney villains, as she retains this nasty quality. The stepsisters aren't as well portrayed, however, and probably help contribute to the dislike of the film from various people. They are truly victims of the stepmother, as they too are manipulated by their mother (just watch the scene when they rip the dress). It's a shame Disney didn't really focus a tiny bit more on them (as cute as the mice are, they do seem like padding material after a while). I think that a more realistic character design and a short scene involving the stepsisters saying something nasty about themselves based on a comment by their mother (thus giving them a more sympathetic angle, implying that they hate themselves due to the pressure and opinions of their overbearing mother) would have been a worthy inclusion. But of course, the film is pushing 60 years old now, and I don't think that anybody would be willing for that much revisionism.

To conclude, the most powerful Disney villains are the ones who truly have a hint of reality in them, even if they are fantasy characters. How many people have you met who put on an honest front yet are really nasty characters like all the characters Pinocchio meets? Or how often have you seen people (or yourself) being bullied by others due to them being slightly different like how the whole of the circus was to Dumbo? Whilst the stepsisters aren't too well portrayed and could give the wrong impression that ugly people are bad and step-families are evil (many of the original versions of Cinderella forget to mention the level of the stepsisters' looks), the evil stepmother is a realistic character stuck in a fantasy film, as like so many nasty people, she can manipulate and upset people, including her own daughters, with such ease and lack of consideration.

7. Do you think that Disney is a world of escapism or realism?
Escapism, by all means. Walt Disney quoted at various times praising escapism (here's a sample of quotes, which sum up his philosophy: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... isney.html ), and the Disney theme parks are essentially a three-dimensional way of escaping the pressures of daily life that even a typical city break or beach holiday might entail. Nearly of the films, live-action and animated, end happily and good nearly always triumphs over evil. Even the more serious stories adapted by Disney (Pocahontas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame) ended up being rather light-hearted, at least compared to other adaptations.

8. In your opinion, does the film Enchanted offer a realistic view of New York?
I've never been to New York, so I can't truthfully answer. However, judging from what I do know about New York, as well as other metropolises, I would say that it's a somewhat rose-tinted view of the city. There are hints at the crime (Giselle's tiara being stolen, for example), the pollution (the vermin whom Giselle calls for) and the rude people ("Grumpy, is that you?"), but it's overall all used for comic or artistic effect. Essentially, Enchanted is a romantic comedy with a fantasy aspect intertwined for originality, and like nearly all rom-coms set in big cities, it's light-hearted and hasn't any intention on being a kitchen sink drama; mention of things like 9/11 and social problems in the Bronx would have seemed out of place. Oliver and Company probably showed a grittier New York.

Ooh, I like what you said Wondy!

What you said about the stepsisters hating themselves, on a making of Cinderella video I have an animator said he thought they didn't like each other or maybe even themselves very much (I think it was Ollie Johnston, their animator). However they are also vain, though I guess they could be girls who hate themselves but still act like they're better, like the people who put on fronts when they are really insecure in real life. But you're comment on the stepsisters saying the don't like themselves after what they're mother says I have thought about for revisioned Disney Cinderella, too! I just don't know if it is a good decision or not. Maybe something better would be if they grew to love themselves no matter what, became nicer to Cinderella, and found rather attractive men at the end. The Perrault version did have Cinderella forgive them, ask them to love her, and find lords for them to court.

Just a little info, the Perrault version of Cinderella that Disney's is based on says Cinderella was a thousand times handsomer than her stepsisters, and there are hints the stepsisters do not look like an ideal like Cinderella does. Before Disney got to the story, however, artists were already making the stepsisters look really ugly, and when Disney got to it they made the stepsisters a little tamer in their funny looks.

On that note, often, since fairy tales are idealistic, the idea is that if you are good and beautiful on the inside, so you will be on the outside. At least, I think so, as it is not in all fairy tales, some have good people who are ugly and bad people who are beautiful, as in Snow White. But most fairy tales seem to have the good as beautiful ideal. Of course it's not the best thing to say to people, but it is an ideal, many people wish they could look so beautiful.

1.Do you think the portrayal of the Disney Princess is considered to be the stereotype of the 'ideal' woman?
I think the Disney Princesses are meant to look idealistically beautiful, but Snow White does not look like the most atractive girl to me even in her era, and Sleeping Beauty was actually designed to be prettier than Cinderella, so they are not all meant to be the prettiest, most ideal women there can be. I also don't know about the word "stereotype" in regards to them.

2. Would you perceive the Disney Princess's to be Heroines? And why?
The Disney Princesses are heroines to me in that they are the leads of their films, earning everyone's care and concern, and often moving the story. All of them, even Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora and the rest at least try somehow to be happy or get what they want, even if it's wishing and dreaming or pushing their parents or making deals and bargains. Cinderella saves animals while Ariel, Belle, and others often save animals and men.

3. Do you think women are represented truthfully in Disney's feature animation?
I don't know about the word truthfully, but I don't think the women in Disney films are like most real women in the world because they are in fairy tales, but it is always possible that any woman could act like any Disney princess if she were in their situation. Walt Disney always aimed to make his human characters realistic and believable, but also combined with fantasy. But you could wonder that in probably any film where people have to act in a story, did the actors perfectly get how real people would act in the situation if it was real? Can we even know the answer to that? And all people are different and act differently! Don't forget, in this real world some people, both men and women, are more passive and some are more active.

4. Who is your favourite Disney Princess? And Why?
My favorite Disney Princess is Cinderella. I loved her ever since I was little I think for her warmth and kindness and voice and perhaps even seeming in charge of her house and having a slight attitude. I also really did love her design, not necessarily because it was pretty but I liked her gown and updo. Now that I'm older her I love that she hung onto the hope for happiness no matter what and believed and she even tried to do some active things to get her happily ever after.

5. Do you think the Princesses would be idolised so much if they weren't beautiful?
I actually have heard little kids like things because they are so shiny and pretty and they don't like something if it is ugly to them...this is not true for all little kids I am sure, but I do have a feeling the princesses would not be as popular if they weren't beautiful, unfortunately! That shouldn't be how it is...

6. Do you think the representation of Step Mothers sets a good example to children watching Cinderella?
The stepmother in Cinderella is not a good example of a good step mother. She is meant to be a bad stepmother. She needs to be bad in order for their to be drama and sadness for Cinderella and the story. Maybe she and the stepsisters could have become good in the end, but she still has to be bad in the beginning. Even if the only bad she did was made Cinderella do all the work, that would be terrible of any mother or stepmother to make their children do. If Cinderella only couldn't go to the ball because she didn't finish her share of the chores while her stepmother and stepsisters finished theirs, it would not nearly be as dramatic and sad when Cinderella couldn't go and not nearly as happy when her fairy godmother made her able to go.

7. Do you think that Disney is a world of escapism or realism?
Yes, Disney is meant to be escapism, but also have doses of reality and say things about real people and the real world in addition.

8. In your opinion, does the film Enchanted offer a realistic view of New York?
I think Enchanted does not show all of New York and all of what it is like, and some things Giselle and others do in New York would probably, almost definately not have been possible in New York or almost any place in real life! But Giselle loves the wonders of the city and New York is painted in a good light. She would rather live there than in Andalasia!

1.Do you think the portrayal of the Disney Princess is considered to be the stereotype of the 'ideal' woman?
I think that each princess embodies both physical and personality characteristics that were most desired of women during the time the films were made. Snow White looks like a model from the late 30's and takes on a 30's housewife role in the dwarfs cottage. Cinderella looks like a late 40's model and has the personality of a late 40's/early 50's woman. Aurora is similar to Cinderella in many ways because that film was put into production shortly aft. The princesses of the late 80's/early 90's are the same way. Ariel, Belle, and Jasmine look like the ideal women of the times and their personalities start to lead more towards empowerment in women. And finally, you get to Pocahontas, Mulan, and the upcoming Tiana. They exude girl power and fight their own battles, rather than waiting for their prince to do it for them, which is in keeping with the modern view of woman as being just as strong as men.

2. Would you perceive the Disney Princess's to be Heroines? And why?
I see certain ones as heroines. The Walt-era princesses are very passive and wait for others to act, but with Ariel, Belle, and Jasmine, you start to see them taking a stand for themselves. Finally, you get stories where Pocahontas, Mulan, and Tiana save the day. So I view the most recent three as heroines.

3. Do you think women are represented truthfully in Disney's feature animation?
It depends on the film, but for the most part, no. They are very much an idealized type of women and not realistic.

4. Who is your favourite Disney Princess? And Why?
My favorite is Ariel, but it has more to do with my enjoyment of the film than anything else.

5. Do you think the Princess's would be idolised so much if they weren't beautiful?
No. When you look at the human characters in Disney films that had an impact on pop culture, it's always the pretty ones. Disney has other princesses that they don't include in the Disney Princess franchise and I think the reason is that they aren't beautiful characters in the same way that the Princesses are.

6. Do you think the representation of Step Mothers sets a good example to children watching Cinderella?
I think children are smart enough to realize that Cinderella's stepmother isn't an example of how all stepparents are. In a time where so many children have stepparents, I think kids will see enough examples in their elementary school that is shouldn't be an issue.

7. Do you think that Disney is a world of escapism or realism?
Total escapism. While there are some Disney films that are very realistic, the general archetypal Disney film is all about fantasy, a means to escape. And the whole point of going to a Disney park is to leave the real world at the gate and enter a world of fantasy.

8. In your opinion, does the film Enchanted offer a realistic view of New York?
No. They show that New York can be dark and scary, but for the most part it's a fantasy version of New York that doesn't really exist. But I don't think the film ever intended to show the real New York, but rather uses New York as the polar opposite of Giselle's Andalasia.

I just want to comment on what goofystitch said.

Whether the Walt-era princesses waited for their princes is still in opinion. Wishing in a wishing well so that your dream comes true is in fact trying to do something so your prince comes, that isn't waiting. If you don't buy that, Walt Disney said Cinderella doesn't wait for her Prince, but goes to the ball to get him, and in the film she at least tries to get to the ball before her chances are ruined, and gets the birds to get Bruno to get out of her attic and uses the slipper to get her happy ending, not waiting for a Prince or someone else to do those things.

Also, Cinderella took a stand for herself like the other princesses in standing against her stepfamily that she had the right to go to the ball, too.

Then, just as an aside, it's so funny how Enchanted says Disney worlds are fantasy but and New York is the "real world" but then it's a fantasy version of New York. And so, all Disney kingdoms are only fantasy versions of kingdoms as well.

Disney Duster, my opinions, which are what sazzleeb asked for, are not up for debate. Anytime I so much as mention Cinderella, you jump at the chance to say no. It's really annoying and it's the main reason why I have come to dread seeing your avatar in any forum here. You are welcome to your own opinions, but when somebody asks for my opinions, they are not for you to discuss.

We are here to discuss each other's opinions, actually.

And yes of course when someone mentions a character I like I will talk about them, that subject has been brought up and so I can discuss it. And I certainly can defend said character or subject.

Also, when you say something like "only these stood up for their rights" but the fact is another stood up for their rights, or "only these didn't wait for their prince" but the creator of a character said that character didn't wait for their prince, I do not see how that is opinion, but lying, and I will not stand for it on characters I love.

Disney Duster wrote:We are here to discuss each other's opinions, actually.

No no.

No no.

Nowhere in the original post does it say to discuss your differing opinions. It simply asks what our opinions are. You turn everything into a debate. Stop it.

And yes of course when someone mentions a character I like I will talk about them, that subject has been brought up and so I can discuss it. And I certainly can defend said character or subject.

Also, when you say something like "only these stood up for their rights" but the fact is another stood up for their rights, or "only these didn't wait for their prince" but the creator of a character said that character didn't wait for their prince, I do not see how that is opinion, but lying, and I will not stand for it on characters I love.

Oh. My. God. You are ridiculous.

FACT: Cinderella wished for something to happen and everyone else around her made that wish come true. Wishing for something is not the same as making something happen. She needed the Fairy Godmother and the mice to make things happen for her. Now you can say that it was circumstantial because she was so busy with chores that she didn't have time to do anything about her situation, but the fact is that she didn't make her dreams come true. She had the extra slipper, which is not the same as saving John Smith's life, saving China, or getting you and the Prince turned back into humans. Her victory was circumstantial like everything else that happened to her.

So yeah, I was "lying" when I said that I don't see Cinderella as a heroin? I was "lying" when I stated my opinion? I don't think so.

Again? Haven't I seen this thread three times already?

goofystitch wrote:Disney Duster, my opinions, which are what sazzleeb asked for, are not up for debate. Anytime I so much as mention Cinderella, you jump at the chance to say no. It's really annoying and it's the main reason why I have come to dread seeing your avatar in any forum here. You are welcome to your own opinions, but when somebody asks for my opinions, they are not for you to discuss.

Hold up hold up hold UP... I can't believe you said this. How long have you been a forum participant? Because it sounds like you haven't been around for long.

When you post an opinion in a PUBLIC forum you are indirectly giving people the right to comment on WHATEVER subject you posted on. It's pretty much the norm of PUBLIC FORUMS.

If you want your opinion to not be debated then write a blog post then block all comments. You expressed your opinion and denied the right for anyone to comment.

Second of all, this isn't your thread. The only one that can ask to just post opinions and not debate them is the creator of the thread, and even then he doesn't have the full right to tell people how to participate in a thread.

The only thing you can claim here is if Duster insulted you in a mean and belittling manner, because that's something that goes against the rules. But all he did was express HIS opinions, something he is entitled to as long as he follows the rules.

In a way, it sounds like you don't want your opinion to be debated, like you want it to be absolute and anyone that dares to question it gets the cold shoulder from you.

Its a good thing you pick a "nice" forum to make that claim. If you try to say that on one of the forums that I go to outside of UD they would flame you, insult you without mercy and tell you things far, far worse that what I have said here regarding your attitude about debates.

I'm not sure if there's much more to add to the first 3 posts. All I'll say is that it's interesting how the female characters represent the build-up of the women's rights movement pretty well. First, you have the early princesses, who mostly are victims or at the very least are defended/helped out by everyone around them. The second group (Ariel, Belle) stand almost in transition--they do take more of a stand and the plots center more around their actions than their victimizations (for instance, though Ariel is criticized for having to be helped out by men at the end, everyone in the movie runs around her actions). I think the only anomaly here is Jasmine, who is highly sexualized and is fairly useless/weak. And Pocahontas, Mulan and other women from the later films that you may not be including (Megara, Kida) are the ones whose heroic acts and strong character are unquestionable.

Also, I would like to make one point, which is a problem I usually have when feminists try to pin down what constitutes a weak female character: there's nothing wrong with a character being helped. Of course, there is an argument with the older films, to the extent that the princesses (Aurora and Snow White, particularly) almost never do anything worth mentioning at all. But equality isn't about women being above men, it's about being on the same level. Hence the reason I've never saw anything wrong with Belle being saved from the wolves by Beast or Eric saving Ariel from Ursula.

As for the freedom of speech debate-- . There is a difference between commenting on someone's opinion and attempting to negate their opinion/thoughts with your own. And, regardless, I don't agree that every thread constitutes a right to comment on everyone else. I don't go in the Polls&Games area, disrupting threads to comment on this or that someone's posted. That's just my opinion.

In the context of the thread's intentions, I would have to side with goofystitch. It's unnecessary to debate someone else's opinions if sazzleeb is only asking for people to answers to his/her questions. Public forum or not.

Everyone should re-read the first post:

• I've chosen to post these questions on here because you all seem to be pretty opinionated on Disney and i'd like to know how you feel about my chosen coursework subjects.
  
  <snip>
  
  If you'd be happy to answer just some of these questions i'd be really grateful...
  <snip>

The thread wasn't designed for people to debate their answers, its main (and only?) intention, as far as I can tell, is for sazzleeb to collect the opinions of others for his/her research. It is not necessary for anyone to discuss them in this thread. People can discuss them if they want, but they should do so in threads intended for them (such as "Cinderella Discussion" or whatnot). Copy+Paste the segment you want to talk about into the other thread, let this thread remain the "answer the questions" one.

And Goliath, yeah, stuff like this comes up every so often. Representation of Women in Disney Films seems to be a popular topic for term papers in the UK:

Positive or Negative Portrayal of Women in Animated Films?

women representation in disney animated films

Representation of women in Disney films......please help!

Women: Disney vs. Anime

Are the Disney Princesses Bad for our Children?

A2 Media Investigation-Women in Disney-Responses Needed!!!

Anyway, to actually answer the questions:

1.Do you think the portrayal of the Disney Princess is considered to be the stereotype of the 'ideal' woman?
Yes, for reasons already mentioned above. They were/are designed after the popular images of women of the time. If Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs were made today, she wouldn't look and sound as she did in 1937, she'd likely be a modern representation of the 2009 woman.

2. Would you perceive the Disney Princess's to be Heroines? And why?
In the early films, they're really just...too nice to do anything else. Later films have them more active in their stories. I'd call Pocahontas, Mulan, and Kidagakash bigger heroines than any of the others because of the much-more-active roles they play in their films. Belle, Ariel, and Jasmine, as someone already said, represent the transition from passive characters to more active ones, though Belle comes across as more heroic than the other two due to her actions in the story. Eilonwy's pretty much forgotten by most Disney fans and is really bratty. Aurora's not even a fully-realized character, let alone a heroine. She's the MacGuffin, the human prop. Cinderella has some sass, but saying "Hey, due to technicalities, I'm invited to the ball too!" or threatening the cat with "a lesson" isn't heroic. She really just seems too excited to get out of the house than to meet anyone, much less the Prince. And Snow White just is a victim of circumstance who can't seem to catch a break until the end of the film. She plays more on the audiences' emotions rather than being a character someone can really identify with.

3. Do you think women are represented truthfully in Disney's feature animation?
Physically, no.

Intellectually, it depends on the character.

Emotionally, sometimes.

4. Who is your favourite Disney Princess? And Why?
Belle, for many reasons (most sentimental, some not even related to the movie).

5. Do you think the Princess's would be idolised so much if they weren't beautiful?
American Society is so fixated on physical appearances that if you give them an ugly princess, she'll have less fans than a pretty one.

6. Do you think the representation of Step Mothers sets a good example to children watching Cinderella?
No. They needed a villain so they turned the stepmother into one, at the expense of stepfamilies everywhere.

7. Do you think that Disney is a world of escapism or realism?
Escapism. It's animated, for god's sake. That immediately differs from reality in that it could never exist *in* reality. But even beyond the rational reason, it's escapism simply for the ideas and characters that are common in a Disney movie.

8. In your opinion, does the film Enchanted offer a realistic view of New York?
I think the only ones who can truthfully answer this are people who live in New York. It's like asking "Does the series 'Baywatch' offer a realistic view of Southern California beaches?" or "Does 'thirtysomething' offer a realistic depiction of yuppies in the late 80s?"

albert

pap64 wrote:

goofystitch wrote:Disney Duster, my opinions, which are what sazzleeb asked for, are not up for debate. Anytime I so much as mention Cinderella, you jump at the chance to say no. It's really annoying and it's the main reason why I have come to dread seeing your avatar in any forum here. You are welcome to your own opinions, but when somebody asks for my opinions, they are not for you to discuss.

Hold up hold up hold UP... I can't believe you said this. How long have you been a forum participant? Because it sounds like you haven't been around for long.

When you post an opinion in a PUBLIC forum you are indirectly giving people the right to comment on WHATEVER subject you posted on. It's pretty much the norm of PUBLIC FORUMS.

If you want your opinion to not be debated then write a blog post then block all comments. You expressed your opinion and denied the right for anyone to comment.

Second of all, this isn't your thread. The only one that can ask to just post opinions and not debate them is the creator of the thread, and even then he doesn't have the full right to tell people how to participate in a thread.

The only thing you can claim here is if Duster insulted you in a mean and belittling manner, because that's something that goes against the rules. But all he did was express HIS opinions, something he is entitled to as long as he follows the rules.

In a way, it sounds like you don't want your opinion to be debated, like you want it to be absolute and anyone that dares to question it gets the cold shoulder from you.

Its a good thing you pick a "nice" forum to make that claim. If you try to say that on one of the forums that I go to outside of UD they would flame you, insult you without mercy and tell you things far, far worse that what I have said here regarding your attitude about debates.

I have been part of this forum for a long time and I have no problem with people disagreeing with me at all. I do not considder my opinions to be better than anybody elses. I mean, the whole point of a public forum is to share opinions and discuss.

But this thread is a little different than others. It's for an assignment and the original poster asked what our opinions are on the topics listed. In addition, this is a recurring problem that I have had with Disney Duster. We have talked about it before. The main reason I responded the way I did was because this topic was not the place to do it. But as I stated before, I am annoyed by the fact that Cinderella is basically out of bounds to talk about without him telling the posters why they are wrong. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I don't like the way that he has to negate everything said about the film, not just by me but any forum member who has a different opinion than his.

So if I seemed rude or was out of line, I apologize. It probably would have been best to have done this over a private message. It was not my intentions to make this a public fight or to get others involved and I am sorry. And I greatly respect your opinions and posts, pap64. And I really appreciate you calling me out because looking back on it, I was out of line.

1. Not so much a stereotype but more of an idealized version for younger minds.
2. Yes, as they are all positive figures and hark workers, playing an active role in the relationships with their respective suitors.
3. I think Enchanted says a lot about that.
4. Belle. A reader, a yearner, brave, someone who can see through BS and look at the good.
5. Are you asking if ugly cartoon characters are still idealized versions of people? No, they aren't.
6. I think the archetype of the character is inseperably bonded with the notion that she is a jealous stepmother. Kids can get the wrong idea, yes. That's why parents or guardians must be discriminatory about wether material they show younger minds is appropriate for their age.
7. It's fantasy. You can't wish upon a star.
8. In so far as its a movie, yes. New York is a busy, hectic place with direct people, its also a positive place thats been cleaned up a lot in certain areas and has much to offer in terms of recreation.

Thank you so much pap.

Anyway, to everyone, if someone said something in a thread like...Walt Disney was a sexist racist ratting out manipulating terrible man, but the thread was about giving your opinions or whatever...some of us would not be able to hold back. I will always defend things I love. It doesn't matter what it is I love and want to defend, even an animal if I was so attached to it, but I will also remind that characters are made and voiced by real people as well.

So here I still go. This is very on-topic because what we are talking about is the princesses and if they are heroines and such:

goofystitch wrote:FACT: Cinderella wished for something to happen and everyone else around her made that wish come true. Wishing for something is not the same as making something happen. She needed the Fairy Godmother and the mice to make things happen for her. Now you can say that it was circumstantial because she was so busy with chores that she didn't have time to do anything about her situation, but the fact is that she didn't make her dreams come true. She had the extra slipper, which is not the same as saving John Smith's life, saving China, or getting you and the Prince turned back into humans. Her victory was circumstantial like everything else that happened to her.

Nope.

Cinderella also believed and had faith. The idea is that because Cinderella was kind to others, and had faith and belief in her dreams of happiness coming true, her kindness was returned and her happiness came true. The Fairy Godmother said she came because Cinderella had faith. Also, Cinderella pushed her stepfamily to let her go to the ball, technicality or not Escapay, because she also said "I'm still a member of the family". Even using technicality, people use logic to get things they want all the time, pointing out things. But if she did not push her family to let her go to the ball, the mice would have never made that dress for her. In fact, they wouldn't have done anything for her if she didn't do things for them. Also, Scaps, she saved mice. That's heroic. Of course the things she did were not on the same level as later heroines, but that does not mean she did nothing. As for the circumstantial slipper, she had to keep it and bring it downstairs in case, but also, if you want a heroic act, she defeated the villain. Is the stepmother defeated when the King makes his proclomation and the Duke comes. No, in fact it looks like Cinderella is defeated when the slipper breaks. But then Cinderella does the act which defeats the stepmother and saves her and gets the happy ending. Circumstantial or no, but I don't even know what that means when everything happens in certain circumstances and Cinderella still had to make a move.

1.Do you think the portrayal of the Disney Princess is considered to be the stereotype of the 'ideal' woman?
For their time period, yes. Like many above said, Snow White look like models from 30's, Cinderella ball gown hair-do look like I Love Lucy's and her normal hair more like 40's woman. Aurora look like 50's to 60's transition and the 90's princess look and act like girls from their times.

2. Would you perceive the Disney Princess's to be Heroines? And why? Yea pretty much. Do all of them do heroic deeds? Not in the usual sense, but each do have their own sets of good deeds they performed.

Snow White- She helps bring out the dwarves' personality, and helps their problems and crap.

Cindy- Worked her ass off and didn't whine or fuss like a baby to Lady Tramain. And got her ass off to the ball anyway. Only neg is she should of beat the crap out of the step mother and step sisters. But that would of ended the movie in 5 seconds.

Aurora- As beautiful and gorgeous she is, didn't really do much of anything cause the 3 ugly hags were greedy and had to hog up all the movie's time. But a good thing she did do is make me get a hard-on.

Ariel- Yea, she able to bitch off her father (who could kick your ass) like the typical teenager she is, and was able to have a hard enough sex drive to get that Prince Eric by even making a deal with a drag queen.

Belle- loves to read in a word filled with illiterates and can repel a jock. She also has enough "balls"(metaphorically) to get into bestially.

Jaz-use her body to her advantage against Jafar...... wait that's a negative isn't it?

The other non-princess heroines all became badasses like Mulan and Esmeralda and Kida.

3. Do you think women are represented truthfully in Disney's feature animation? Yes and no. Yes in that they show various astray of emotions and personality that women often could show. Like ARieL iz TOTALLY a Teenager grrl!!1

4. Who is your favourite Disney Princess? And Why?
If you mean heroine, it's Esmeralda. Despite the title the whole story revolve around her and got not one but 3 men lusting for her. One being a villain.

If you mean just princess then it's Aurora. Sure she didn't do much of anything but play with owls but she so damn attractive and cute. And her voice.. damn, it's like she the reincarnation of a goddess or something.

Second would be Belle.

5. Do you think the Princess's would be idolised so much if they weren't beautiful? Are you kidding me? If Ursula was a princess, I would probably see little girls try to burn a plush doll of it in a fire... with a demented look on their face. Remember, SEX sells. Yes, even to young kids in a subconscious way.

6. Do you think the representation of Step Mothers sets a good example to children watching Cinderella?
You know when I was little and saw that movie, I use to think Step mothers were evil pricks too. I soon learn to read more often and found out other wise. But to answer your question, Cinderella is a fairy-tale, their not much to change of the content of it. So they left the villain the way she is. Besides, Disney hated step mothers along with cats, so it's only natural.

7. Do you think that Disney is a world of escapism or realism?
Does fantasy = realism? See if that helps.
8. In your opinion, does the film Enchanted offer a realistic view of New York?No. When I go to NYC I don't see princes jumping on top of bus and stabbing it, or a singing musical in Central Park, or women popping out of manholes like gophers, or dragons on top of a skyscraper imitating King Kong. All I remember seeing was dirty hobos, weirdoes, and people walking streets like robots on cell phones.


So I hope this answers all your questions!


oh and I lol'd at Disney Duster here.

I just wanted to say thank you all very much for your help, it's really blown me away how helpful you've been and I value every answer.

In response to Goliath, I know these subjects do come up a lot but my course requires primary research so I posted my own questions instead of quoting someone else for secondary research, which I already have a lot of.

Thanks again guys.

Are these questions from you professor? If so, they are trite and cliched feminist tripe, they are stale leftovers from the 20th century. They immediately take a point of view that puts the studio on a defensive posture over its portrayals of women.

Let me turn the tables...

Why are you only asking about the Disney "Princess" characters, as opposed to the legion of strong -- even noble -- female characters in Disney films? Have you seen Bambi? Dumbo? Pinocchio? Fantasia? So Dear to my Heart? Peter Pan? Lady and the Tramp? The Sword and the Rose? Sleeping Beauty? Third Man on the Mountain? Three Lives of Thomasina? Those Calloways? 101 Dalmatians? Old Yeller? Pollyanna? In Search of the Castaways? On and on it goes...why the focus on Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora and other princess characters? Bambi's mother blows them all out of the water.

1.Do you think the portrayal of the Disney Princess is considered to be the stereotype of the 'ideal' woman?
Nope, but I love the fact that this idea drives liberal feminists crazy.

2. Would you perceive the Disney Princess's to be Heroines? And why?
They are heroines because they are the central protagonists of their respective narratives. Typically, they are victims of evil people, and they persevere against evil.

3. Do you think women are represented truthfully in Disney's feature animation?
Watch Bambi and Dumbo and then tell your feminist professor to shut the hell up.

4. Who is your favourite Disney Princess? And Why?
Princess Eilonwy. She rescues Taran and keeps him grounded when he gets too full of himself. They make a good match.

5. Do you think the Princess's would be idolised so much if they weren't beautiful?
No, they are idolized because they are good people, for the most part.

6. Do you think the representation of Step Mothers sets a good example to children watching Cinderella?
Do I think Darth Vader sets a good example of fathers? Do I think Angela Lansbury in The Manchurian Candidate or Mary Tyler Moore in Ordinary People sets a good example of mothers? I reject the hidden premise in your question, whch is to make people defend the choice to make a stepmother an evil person.

7. Do you think that Disney is a world of escapism or realism?
Disney films allow people to process real issues in a safe context. From death and loss to prejudice and triumph.

8. In your opinion, does the film Enchanted offer a realistic view of New York?
It's the same New York seen in ELF and BIG, pretty much...a childlike character struggles and triumphs in the Big Apple. It isn't TAXI DRIVER or MANHATTAN.