DVDizzy Forum

Okay, so before I continue, please don't bash me or anything like that. It's just something I've been thinking about.

About Belle:

I've heard/seen people say they like her because she appears intelligent because of the fact that she reads books and she is a brunette. Okay, now just because we didn't see the previous princesses read doesn't mean they weren't smart. I know that Belle questioned society and didn't want to conform, but what makes her smart? I beleive everyone is smart in their own way, but what makes her different because I don't see it. Is it because every other girl in the province wanted to be with Gaston, but she was the only one to refuse him? I mean, Ariel is curious about the human word, and probably read books that dropped into the ocean, but people call her stupid for giving up her family because of her love for Eric. I mean, Ariel did rescue Eric from drowning and she knew what she was getting into with Ursula, and yet people say she was weak at the end when Eric tries to rescue her by killing Ursula. To me, Eric was just returning the favor, and honestly, what could Ariel have done? Eric had his legs and that made it easier to defeat Ursula. I just rewatched B&tB a couple of months ago, and I noticed some things. Belle wanted adventure in the great wide somewhere, but when she gets it, she starts to complain about being in the enchanted castle. Then, the Beast tries to be nice and invites her to a nice dinner, but she still refuses him. Later on, when the two enchanted objects are giving her a tour of the castle, they specifically told her NOT to go to the West Wing, but she still defies them and goes there. Then later on, she is rescued by the Beast when wolves try to kill her. If you ask me, she is no different than the previous princesses who were either told not to open the door for strangers, or who were told not to talk to strangers in the woods.

About Cinderella:

How come people always say she's a weak character? I don't see it at all. People say "why doesn't she run away?" How could she? Back then, a woman's position was worthless. Believe it or not, Cinderella would have had a better life in the Chateau than if she had ran away. If she ran away, she would have been a maid in someone else's house anyway. Also, the Chateau was her home. Where else would she have gone to? People also say "why couldn't she had stood up to her stepfamily?" To me, Cinderella was an optimistic person. She believed that if she did everything her stemother had asked her to, Lady Tremaine would acknowledged her as her daughter. During the ripping of the pink dress, people say "why couldn't Cinderella fight back?" Okay, it was two against one. Have you seen that video on the news of those girls beating up that one girl in a living room? That's the exact same thing. Cinderella couldn't fight back. She was in a state of shock. It's like if something horrid happens to you, you are more likely to just stand there and be like "did this just happen?" Furthermore, I've heard people say "she ran way to the garden to cry because her stepsisters ruined her dress." That's not true. She ran away and cried because deep down inside, Cinderella had always hoped that one day, the Tremaine Family could look at her and see that she's a person just like them, and treat her like part of their family, with kindness and respect, but after the incident, that hope was gone. And finally, the last thing that I always here people say is "Cinderella just sat around to be rescued by a Prince." Okay, first of all, Cinderella didn't know anything about the Prince of her kingdom. She didn't even know how he looked like. Every other girl wanted to go to the ball to land the Prince, but Cindy only wanted to go to the ball to have a good time. She'd probably heard her family talk about the palace and balls that they attended, and when the invitation came, she saw this as her chance to go because every eligible maiden in the kingdom were invited. When she eventually went to the ball, she probably didn't expect anyone to ask her to dance, but when the Prince asked her to dance, she gladly accepted. She didn't even know she was dancing with the prince until the next day. When Lady Tremaine locked her in her garret room, how could Cinderella have possibly left the room? There was no way to escape unless if she were to jump from the window, but she would have died if she did that. All there was left to was hope for a miracle. Also, people compalin about how Cindy married a guy she hardly knew. Well, we don't know how many hours it was between Cindy coming into the ballroom and when midnight occurred, but she and the Prince probably spoke and got to know each other. Also, they could have had a long engagement before they married.

Basically, my point is that Cinderella isn't as bad as people portray her to be. She also had moments of frustration and mischieviousness, like how she always complained about being controlled by the clock, or when she was frustrated by how her stepsisters always yelled about something trivial like breakfast, or when she made a joke about Drizella's bad singing, or when she stood up for herself about her rights to go to the ball, or when she cut off her stepmother when she tried to act concerned when Cindy said she wasn't going to the ball (Cinderella was smart. She knew what Tremaine was doing). The only problem I have is that I feel like Cinderella is a supporting character in her own movie. The animals get more screentime than she does. The only thing I would change is more screentime for Cinderella, the Prince, and the Tremaine Family.

tsom wrote:Okay, so before I continue, please don't bash me or anything like that. It's just something I've been thinking about.

*bash bash bash* joking

Belle wanted adventure in the great wide somewhere, but when she gets it, she starts to complain about being in the enchanted castle. Then, the Beast tries to be nice and invites her to a nice dinner, but she still refuses him

Well I think you would complain too if you were now a prisoner (even if she did get herself into that mess) it's not so much complaining I think it's more of "what did I get myself into" type of moment. She wanted adventure, being a prisoner not so much an adventure Beast tried to be nice but still let his anger get the better of him and tried forcing her and making demands, it's not suprising she refused him. If someone told me "your going to eat dinner with me whether you want to or not" and then tried asking nicely just to demand it again I'd refuse too.

Later on, when the two enchanted objects are giving her a tour of the castle, they specifically told her NOT to go to the West Wing, but she still defies them and goes there.

Curiosity killed the cat, satisfaction brought him back

Doing what your not suppposed to is part of being human, we make mistakes and do what we're told not to. Just makes her more human I think, all the characters have their flaws, this is one of hers.

tsom, thanks for posting. very interesting & thoughtful!
Cinderella is probably my fave character and she gets a bum rap at times. I liked your take! I remember dining at Ariel's Grotto at DCA with my boyfriend last year and Cindy came to our table and asked us if we had left our princesses at home! If she only knew...hell, she PROBABLY DID!

jon

I think a lot of 'Belle being so smart' does come from her loving to read and because she doesn't fall in 'love at first sight'. This doesn't mean characters like Ariel are stupid, but their priorities seem to be different.
Cinderella is a passive character, but you are right, that doesn't mean weak. After all, look what she has to do everyday! Being optimistic and hopeful in an environment like that is brave indeed.

I really agree with you and I hate when people bash Cinderella like that (And also Aurora and Snow White),and Cinderella wasn't rescued,she's the one who rescued herself,she used her brain and everything she could and made her dream come true.
And what I really hate about Belle's popularity that some people likes her not because they like her character or her film but because she's "brave and smart",I"m not saying she isn't but they"re making it sound like the other Princesses are stupid and coward,they aren't,they"re brave and smart just as Belle.
And what Belle reads is fairy tales,not actual books,so that doesn't make smarter then Ariel or Aurora.

Arielsprince, regarding Belle reading "fairy tales"...

1. She may be reading fairy tales, but the key word here is READING. Reading is essential in expanding one's mind and imagination. Whether you are reading a deep philosophy book or a fairy tale, you are doing your mind good.

2. Fairy tales are still considered major literature masterpieces. They may be considered child's fare now but back then the stories rivaled many great novels in depth and complexity.

3. I wouldn't be surprised if in the movie's timeline reading a book was considered taboo, especially if a woman is doing it. Belle was doing both, and proudly parading the fact through town. Its like when an adult walk around playing with a DS or PSP, or when someone is addicted to text messaging. People find that weird, and its understandable why the townsfolk thought Belle was weird. And of the reasons she is an admirable character is that she still kept reading even when people thought it was weird.

4. Finally, do you think all of the books in Beast's library are fairy tales? Not to mention that in the new scene "Human again" she is reading to Beast "Romeo and Juliet", a very deep human drama.

I"m not saying that fairy tales aren't masterpieces (I like fairy tales),just those people seems to think that she's a doctor and reads only deep dramas (But fairy tales are masterpieces too).
And the townsfolk from her village are kind of people who"ll burn someone if they think she's a witch,they"re ignorants.
And maybe she sometimes reads a drama like Romeo and Juliet but she still reads fairy tales.
She's smart but the other Princesses are smart as well,and another thing that Disney Duster said-Cinderella was locked up and used her brain to escape,Belle didn't even tried to escape when she was locked up in her basement.
Kinda off topic-But Belle should have helped Beast when he was fighting Gaston.

carolinakid wrote:tsom, thanks for posting. very interesting & thoughtful!
Cinderella is probably my fave character and she gets a bum rap at times. I liked your take! I remember dining at Ariel's Grotto at DCA with my boyfriend last year and Cindy came to our table and asked us if we had left our princesses at home! If she only knew...hell, she PROBABLY DID!

jon

You should have said to her: "Honey, who needs a princess when you got the queen right here!" just to see her reaction.

Most of your complaints are with people who only take the films at face value anyway. I've never thought of Belle as the "smartest" princess. Being able to read doesn't make a person intelligent and remaining with an abusive stepfamily doesn't make a person weak either. It's so easy for viewers of these films to say, "I'd do this" or "I'd have done that," but you have to take into consideration a character's emotions, time, and situation. We're simply on the outside looking in.

You know, that's really a problem with some Disney films. They take advantage of the harshness of the past, only to infuse a modern mindset into the characters that makes some of the films strange. For example, they make China sexist and demeaning in Mulan, but they give Mulan the personality of a modern-day girl--a personality she would not have had were she born in that time period. I know they take the movie from a legend, but Mulan was likely more reserved and less non-conformist than she's depicted in Disney's version.

As for intelligence, I would think Jasmine and Ariel were likely the most well-educated, considering they're both royalty (isn't that kind of a necessity?--or would they not be educated because they're women?). And even if Ariel weren't very smart about certain things, at least she had a desire to learn.

Flanger-Hanger wrote:

carolinakid wrote:tsom, thanks for posting. very interesting & thoughtful!
Cinderella is probably my fave character and she gets a bum rap at times. I liked your take! I remember dining at Ariel's Grotto at DCA with my boyfriend last year and Cindy came to our table and asked us if we had left our princesses at home! If she only knew...hell, she PROBABLY DID!

jon

You should have said to her: "Honey, who needs a princess when you got the queen right here!" just to see her reaction.

That's HILARIOUS, flanger! If I'd had a few more margaritas in me I probably would have thought of something like that but we were kind of taken aback by Cindy's question. We did have a big laugh when she left!
jon

Great post tsom, and I will E-mail you soon, I'm really sorry you worked so hard on those and I've been so slow, and soon school's starting again!

But anyway, alot of what you said I have been thinking myself. I plan on making a big post about Cinderella soon, about the whole movie, and a lot of those things I thought about. At first I thought, "Oh no, he beat me to the punch", but now I realize it means I'm not crazy, the things I thought might really be in the movie, it's not only me who sees it.

You know, I recently was reading a book that had a lot about Beauty and the Beast, and Linda Wolverton, who wrote the script, said she discarded the way the fairy tale was told before, and today films needed to be written with more in mind like how children see themselves and turn out, and the story can't be sexist (did she know the original story was written by a woman?). And she also said Belle is strong, and smart, etc.

However, know matter how much they intended, Belle's actual smarts don't seem to really be any use. We don't know how smart she really is, just that she must be because she reads, and it's like she's just smart for the sake of being smart.

The brunette = smart thing is so funny. It's an example of only looking at the surface, like thinking someone is dumb because they are blonde. It reminds me of a commercial I saw, for hair-coloring, where brunettes and blondes fought over which color was better, and a brunette said "at least we can read". Though maybe the idea is that brown is the most usual color hair people are born with, and it means you didn't do anything special to change your hair, because you care more about other things, like your mind, than your appearence.

As for the other princesses reading:


OKAY, okay. Cinderella was looking at a book of dress designs, and with no words. And that does have to do with appearence, but you have to use your mind to be able to make a good, stylish anything. The original Perrault tale said Cinderella has skills at making great looking things, and it may have indicated intelligence. As for Ariel, well, she was able to read the English in Ursula's contract, so there's a chance she was able to read that human book. And Belle, well, like Ariel'sprince and I said, she's reading a fairy tale. In fact, many behind the scenes info has pointed to the filmakers intending her to be reading Cinderella. We already know she was reading Jack and the Beanstalk.

Ariel gave up her voice and risked eternity as Ursula's prisoner for a man she wasn't sure loved her or would love her without her voice. And it was with a witch she knew had a very bad past. This is a big, big, flaw, that some could certainly call stupid. But we do stupid things for love. It makes the idea of Ariel's love very powerful and I like that Ariel has this flaw.

Yes, one point of the movie is that Belle wants the adventure she reads about and then gets it. But no one wants to be an angry, mean beast's prisoner unless they're really kinky. But when he proved himself kind, then her magical romantic adventure took place. And she even got the prince charming she wanted from her books. Yes, even though the message was that you don't need a prince charming if a beast is nice on the inside...

Belle's curiosity is actually a good way to show her intelligence, as it has to do with finding out things and learning. Running away from a scary beast is also, well, a smart move, except she ran into more trouble with the wolves and had to be saved.

I agreed with so much tsom said about Cinderella that I can't say much on that except maybe Cinderella could have made her sheets into something to lower herself out of the room, but she was pressed for time, and I bet she didn't have enough sheets. Think about what her family lets her have. Also, she could have tried to break down the door. She had things in there she could have tried to whack against it. Judging by her delicacy and such, maybe it wouldn't have been physically possible for her.

Also, I too wish Cinderella felt less like a supporting character in her own film. I can't tell if she has equal time with the mice or less time! But it probably has to do with it being hard to get a lot of laughs and interest in straight, human characters, and the story is hard to fill up a whole hour. I have learned over time I need to embrace the other characters, and I did always enjoy them when I was little. Lucifer is really one of the best parts of the movie, and Cinderella's relationship with the mice actually demonstrates how her kindness and helping others ended up helping her in the end. Of course, I will expand on all this and delve deeper in my humongous post on the film.

Chernabog_Rocks, I don't want to speak for tsom, but I'd say he knows everyone has their flaws, and he's pointing out Belle has flaws like the other princesses, so there's no reason to think she's better than them.

Carolinakid, I'm so happy Cindy's one of your most favorite characters! She's my favorite princess.

Princess Forever, you said Cinderella was a passive character. Can I have a little more explaining of that, compared to the other heroines? Because in Cinderella's film, I'd say she is active enough times. On the flip-side, even Ariel and the others needed help sometimes. Cinderella and Belle both needed help escaping locked rooms.

Pap64, I'm finally glad you explained to me why reading at all is important, and now I get why people think she's smart just for reading at all. But I love reading Disney princess books. The question is, if I read lots of fairy tale books, will it make me smart? Perhaps smarter than people who don't read at all but who are they, just hillbillies?

Beauty and the Beast is supposed to be set in 18th century France. Charles Perrault wrote his fairy tales before then, and became very popular for them. So I don't think reading was taboo, unless, like Ariel'sprince said, it was just looked down upon in the town Belle lived because it was a little, ignorant town. And maybe that's it, since I read Perrault's tales were meant for people in high positions, he had been in court before.

As for "Romeo and Juliet", yea, that was done after the movie came out, after lots of people were able to complain that Belle only read fairy tales. I don't count things that came out after the original release of the movie when discussing the movie.

Ariel'sprince, yea, I like what you're saying. Actually, Belle tried to open a window with a stick when she was locked in the cellar.

Disney's Divinity, yea, good stuff you're saying. One time in the series, King Triton took away a human object from Ariel, and she said "I wanna learn"... And I really liked what you said about taking things at face value. People need to really look closer at the films. But hey, not everyone's a Disney nut.

AND as for any characters being weak, I think there is a slight problem. The stories put them in positions where they are weak, they don't give them opportunities to be strong or overcome something, and so, it still might be Disney's fault.

When I say she is a passive character, I don't mean it in a negative way, just that she doesn't do anything to change her situation, as opposed to someone like Jasmine, who actively snuck out of the palace. Again, I'm not saying it's a flaw, as we know Cinderella probably couldn't leave her house and was too kind to do so as well, but from a literary point of view that's being passive.

Disney Duster wrote:Ariel'sprince, yea, I like what you're saying. Actually, Belle tried to open a window with a stick when she was locked in the cellar.

Thanks she did? I haven't seen Beauty And The Beast for long time .
And I agree about Humans Again,and about Belle reading Cinderella-In Belle's Magical World she tells Beast about Cinderella.

anyone notice they all have dresses that are short and show their legs while all other woman around them wear normal long dresses.

Disney Duster wrote:Pap64, I'm finally glad you explained to me why reading at all is important, and now I get why people think she's smart just for reading at all. But I love reading Disney princess books. The question is, if I read lots of fairy tale books, will it make me smart? Perhaps smarter than people who don't read at all but who are they, just hillbillies?

Beauty and the Beast is supposed to be set in 18th century France. Charles Perrault wrote his fairy tales before then, and became very popular for them. So I don't think reading was taboo, unless, like Ariel'sprince said, it was just looked down upon in the town Belle lived because it was a little, ignorant town. And maybe, since I read Perrault's tales were meant for people in high positions, he had been in court before.

As for "Romeo and Juliet", yea, that was done after the movie came out, after lots of people were able to complain that Belle only read fairy tales. I don't count things that came out after the original release of the movie when discussing the movie.

First of all, I am detecting a lot of sarcasm when answering to a comment of mine. I don't mind that you don't agree with me, but I don't like the attitude behind it. The "I'm finally glad you explained to me why reading at all is important, and now I get why people think she's smart just for reading at all" comment was out of bounds in my honest opinion. It makes you sound like a jerk, honestly.

Second, I honestly didn't mean to make Belle look like she is a smart girl because she reads. What I meant was that Belle reads many books besides Fairy Tales, and that Fairy Tales are also works of literature, which inspire people with things that would never happen in their life (except for Belle ).

Third, the "Human again" sequence was in the movie since the beginning of its production. In the original scene, she was reading "King Arthur" to the servants, and later the Beast. The scene was also featured in the Broadway musical. I know this scene ain't canon, but what I mean is that not all of Belle's stories were childish fairy tales and that she has a great literary appreciation.

Finally, and I repeat myself here, I am not making Belle to be THE best Disney Princess because she can read. In my honest opinion, each Princess has a quality that makes them unique. Snow White is kind towards people, Cinderella is optimistic with a heart of gold, Aurora has the gift of song (all of them do, but her's is quite magical...thanks to the Good fairies of course), Ariel has the spirit of adventure, Belle was appreciates literature and isn't won over easily by someone like Gaston, Jasmine showed us that a better life doesn't mean riches and power, Pocahontas taught us love beyond racial boundaries etc. etc. etc.

I was basically stating that Belle is a good character because she continues to enjoy reading even though the village finds it weird and out of character. Plus, in the event that ALL she reads are fairy tales, why is that so bad?

Yes, it may not make her the best character ever, but it doesn't make her the worst either. Cinderella made dresses FOR MICE FOR GOD'S SAKE! Does that make her childish? No, it adds to her character, the same way Belle's fascination towards fairy tales makes her an unique character.

Frankly, I could go on and on, but I know how these types of threads end, so I will stop it here. Even if you decide to counter my argument I'll just move on.

Third, the "Human again" sequence was in the movie since the beginning of its production. In the original scene, she was reading "King Arthur" to the servants, and later the Beast. The scene was also featured in the Broadway musical. I know this scene ain't canon, but what I mean is that not all of Belle's stories were childish fairy tales and that she has a great literary appreciation.

Yeah, and even disregarding that scene, she wouldn't have been excited about the library Beast gave her unless she enjoyed books in general (I think someone actually mentioned that already). Just because fairy tales were perhaps her favorite, doesn't mean she didn't enjoy other genres.

Unless, you know, she was being like girlfriends are...appreciating the fact that Beast tried.

But Princess Forever, Cinderella tried to make her situation a happier one. And this is digging a little deep for something that may not be there, but you could say she tried to get her family to be nice to her. If that's not changing your situation (or enough, which I can understand), she tried to get to the ball, making her stepmother let her go if she did what was needed to go. Then, she thought of what she needed to get out of the locked room, even though it used help from someone else. Then, she provided the slipper needed to get her happy ending.

I don't deny the later princesses are much more active. Just that Cinderella may not be passive.

Bradhig, yes, something interesting is the girls go from more revealing outfits to less revealing ones. It has to do with getting richer, more beautiful. You have more, so you have more clothing material to cover yourself with. Or it could be something about telling girls they should cover up. But when it comes to the later films, I doubt it.

Pap64, I didn't use an ounce of sarcasm when talking to you. This is a problem with the internet, you can't read people's expressions and inflections.

Seriously, I was wondering why reading made Belle so smart, so great. It may be obvious to some people, but when so many people read, it's not. I mean, some women looked at Belle and said "Oh, so this woman's a good role model/smart. Why? Oh, because she reads a book." And yes, they meant it sarcastically, because if that's all it takes for people to think a woman is smart and a good role model...wow.

I know that you weren't saying Belle was the best ever. I never accused you of such a thing.

Thanks also for your other little tidbit, that when you read about something that can't happen to you, it makes you think of things other than just what happens to you all the time, and that's another reason people think Belle is smart. Because thinking of things others don't, things that are out of the ordinary and beyond what's usual, is thought of as smart.

So they scrapped "Human Again" at the last minute? King Arthur's no Shakespeare, but you're right it's not a fairy tale. And the Broadway musical is also something after the film, expanded, done differently, I won't accept it when talking about the original film's character.

If all she reads are fairy tales...well, it's not bad but, like I said, if I read lots of fairy tales will that make me smart?

Cinderella dressing mice is like giving clothes to the poor. It is a good deed and a representation of her kindness and helping others, along with feeding and protecting them. I didn't think of it as being childish in the way of playing with dolls or something until you brought it up. The mice and birds are the first animals of a princess to gain clothes in a Disney film. Cinderella also dresses her stepsisters. I'd say it's something about taking care of them.

As for the Beast's library of books, to you and Disney's Divinity, well, she had a whole library back home but she kept re-reading the same fairy tales until the bookeeper let her have her favorite one. She probably wouldn't have read every book in the Beast's library but was excited because it would contain books like the ones she read...fairy tales. We don't know if she looked into books about Shakespeare or biology or theories after that scene. Like I said, changes made after the film to have her read Shakespeare don't count.

Just curious, does anyone know if in the Broadway musical, made after critics said the film could be on the stage (furthering my point that it is a change made after criticisms of the film), Belle reads Romeo and Juliet during "Human Again", sitting on the balcony or something?

I agree with Disney Duster about Belle.
I have the original Humans Again song in the Music Behind The Magic disc and I don't think the scene with Belle reading is there,or it's in the Beauty And The Beast DVD?.

BOOKSELLER: Ah, Belle!
BELLE: Good morning. I've come to return the book I borrowed.
BOOKSELLER: Finished already?
BELLE: Oh, I couldn't put it down! Have you got anything new?
BOOKSELLER: Not since yesterday. (laughing)
BELLE: That's all right. I'll borrow... this one.
BOOKSELLER: That one? But you've read it twice!
BELLE: Well it's my favorite! Far off places, daring swordfights, magic spells, a prince in disguise!
BOOKSELLER: Well, if you like it all that much, it's yours!

Their conversation implies that she's read nearly everything in the shop and that she simply finds fairy tales her favorite. Also, daring swordfights and magic spells appear in King Arthur and plenty of other old legends as well. The only reason I would guess that Disney uses fairy tales is because that's what the younger audience would recognize immediately and the film is a fairy tale itself.

Also, I think why many people automatically think of Belle as smarter than she is is because of her situation. In "Belle," the village is crying out for Belle to domesticate, to marry, and to sacrifice any desire to be anything else ("on occasion, women can have their uses, too!"). Many women probably saw her refusal to be less than she could be as a good role model for their children. It's more what the reading represents in the story than anything, although it's an admirable quality on its own.

Yeah,and you"re forgetting when she was with the sheeps:

oh,it's my favorite part because you"ll see,here when she meets Prince Charming but she won't discover that it's him 'til chapter 3

It is a fairy tale,and I think Disney Duster said in this thread that the filmmakers said it's Cinderella.