DVDizzy Forum

That's happened all the time over the years here. I actually regret picking this name, looking back. I believe what I was thinking at the time (all the way back to 2005) was that I often looked for religious meaning that was reflected through Disney films. Of course fairy tales in general are often religious, but I would sometimes look at my favorite Disney films through a religious lens and use it as a way to think more about God at the same time. I don't mean to be offensive to anyone who isn't Christian with this--feel free to skim over it everyone--but I've often heard it said that all great stories echo the Greatest Story. I think someone mistook my name to mean I was saying Disney itself was divine, and that's not what I meant...

I never knew where your name came from, so that's really cool. In my film writing class, we learned that there really are only 5 (I think 5) stories to tell, so that makes sense, unless you meant it in a different way. I mean, "the hero's journey" is what a lot of Disney movies follow, and I think the Bible has a lot of hero's journeys...?

JeanGreyForever wrote:Personally I think Cinderella is but maybe I have a broader definition of feminism.

Oh ok, thanks for explaining because I wasn't sure if there was something I couldn't see. I agree with your statement! I wish others were as generous when it comes to Ariel.

Yeah, go Ariel! I used to trash talk Ariel and The Little Mermaid because they were more popular than Cinderella but now I don't care, plus I'm friends on here with a huge Ariel fan! I am a mild Ariel fan.

Since I'm a huge Cinderella fan, I must ask how you find her feminist.

Disney Duster wrote:

JeanGreyForever wrote:Personally I think Cinderella is but maybe I have a broader definition of feminism.

Oh ok, thanks for explaining because I wasn't sure if there was something I couldn't see. I agree with your statement! I wish others were as generous when it comes to Ariel.

Yeah, go Ariel! I used to trash talk Ariel and The Little Mermaid because they were more popular than Cinderella but now I don't care, plus I'm friends on here with a huge Ariel fan! I am a mild Ariel fan.

Since I'm a huge Cinderella fan, I must ask how you find her feminist.

That's funny that you are only a mild Ariel fan when The Little Mermaid is in your top five Disney films of all time. In fact, top three if I remember correctly and I know you shared your childhood memories of the film as well. Actually, I don't think I've ever asked you to rank your favorite princesses.

Well, she's certainly the most feminist out of the classic three. But imo she's feminist just because she's a survivor who spends years of her life, including most of her childhood or half of it anyway, in servitude taking heaps of abuse, yet her spirit never truly breaks. As the fairy godmother says when Cinderella claims she's lost all hope but she couldn't have because the fairy godmother wouldn't be there otherwise. There's an image of feminism in pop culture today which tends to be too skewed for my taste and would basically render Cinderella as a hopeless victim who deserves what she gets for not physically fighting to save herself. But I think it's just as brave, if not even moreso at times, to mentally and emotionally fend off abuse and I would hope that no real feminist would ever try and write off any sort of victim or survivor of abuse, whether it be domestic abuse or sexual assault, just because they couldn't protect themselves physically against a predator. If a rape victim isn't less feminist because she "allowed herself to get raped", then how could someone look at a victim of a tyrannical guardian and say that she's not a feminist because "she let herself stay in that situation?"

Then there's also the fact that people have this mistaken notion that Cinderella was a gold digger or could only find fulfillment in her life by snagging a prince and all of that is so untrue. She doesn't search specifically for a prince because she believes that only a "big, strong man" can save her even if the Disney Princess franchise has unfortunately fed into this belief. Which is also why I hated that statement in WIR2. Walt Disney put it best when he compared Cinderella to Snow White and said that Snow White was waiting for her prince while Cinderella went out and found him which I think shows how Cinderella exercises her agency and is pretty feminist in itself. Especially since even today we have backwards beliefs that women shouldn't pay the bill on a date or women shouldn't ask a man out or propose to them.

And in fact, even Walt was incorrect because Cinderella didn't go to the ball to find a prince, whether it was just so she could find someone to help her or just because she fell in love and decided to make the first move. The prince was just a reward for all her years of kindness and when Cinderella finally did realize she had a way out that happened to involve her soulmate and a man she truly loves, she did take an active role in securing her freedom even locked inside her room. The mice may rescue Cinderella while she's helpless but they chose to do so because Cinderella befriended them for all these years and it's Cinderella who has the ingenuity to tell the birds to call Bruno to defeat Lucifer otherwise all hope was lost.

Sorry for the long writing, but I do hope all that explains why I think Cinderella is constantly discredited for no reason and is in fact a very strong character after all. Even my uber feminist aunt who is not really into the princesses much said that Cinderella was her favorite of the classic three princesses because she was the strongest and had spunk to her. She also loves Ariel although for some reason she's never been a fan of Belle or her film.

The Little Mermaid is my third favorite Disney film and Ariel is my third favorite Princess. It's funny because Ariel actually has way more personality than Belle and probably is the most personality-filled Disney heroine, and Rapunzel or Anna are next, which is why all three of those are the best at the parks. And yet, I really like the "demure" personalities of Cinderella and Aurora. But Cinderella has that extra spunk and warmth over Aurora.

I absolutely loved what you said and what more can I say other than I agree 100%. It's funny, I never liked that Walt quote as a kid, because I preferred Cinderella believing magic would make her dreams come true. You know, wishing, like Snow White. And Walt did say she "believed in wishing all right." I guess he meant when he said that she went after the Prince, that she was more active, and while in the film I don't feel she really went after the Prince, she pushes her stepmother to let her attend the ball, and of course there's the Bruno and other slipper parts.

I'm glad your aunt likes Cinderella and Ariel!

I guess I just find it surprising that Ariel is your third favorite princess but you would only consider yourself a mild fan of her. Belle is more introverted than Ariel so that doesn't surprise me. Ariel, Rapunzel, and Anna are just heavily extroverted (even though it makes no sense in Rapunzel's case) compared to Cinderella, Aurora, Belle, Pocahontas, etc. I'd say Snow White and Jasmine are extroverts as well though.

Well, Cinderella does wish like Snow White did but she's more active in chasing after that wish it could be said. And yes, the scene where she delivers the ball invitation and stands her ground and says she has just as much right to attend the ball as her stepfamily is also a strong moment.

I think my autism makes Cinderella take so much of my fandom I don't go crazy for Aurora and Ariel, lol.

You are so right in all you said!

Disney Duster wrote:I think my autism makes Cinderella take so much of my fandom I don't go crazy for Aurora and Ariel, lol.

You are so right in all you said!

Lol that must be it.

And speaking of Cinderella, they added Lady Tremaine and Lucifer to the Disney Emoji app for the 70th Anniversary celebration.

Kevin Lima: As I see it, Giselle is the first of the post modern princesses. Before Rapunzel, before Merida, before Elsa and Anna, Giselle fought to redefine the definition of happily ever after. Yes, she pursues love, but learns that the love of self must always come first.

To be honest, I used to find Giselle's arc in the film poorly structured. She manages to make the transformation from the naive stereotype of a Princess to actually be more mature. But I've come to realize that her arc lies in how she becomes proactive to save her love interest. The story never truly affirms that she must learn that her love of self must come first. If anything, the character who actually learns this lesson is Nathaniel. It's pretty remarkable how Nathaniel (besides being a secondary character) is the character with the most overt and satisfying arc. He truly learns that the love of self must come first.

JeanGreyForever wrote:I never liked the angry scene myself as funny as it was to see in theaters. I think Disney Duster said this multiple times before, but it felt bizarre to express this notion that no fairy tale or fantasy character has ever felt angry before. Especially when in the classic Walt films themselves, we've seen Snow White and Cinderella express anger, annoyance, and disapproval. Not to mention other classic heroines like Alice and Wendy.

I found this issue to be a headscratcher as well. Yes, Giselle was supposed to be a stereotype of the classic Disney Princess. But her inability to not grasp anger was somewhat confusing and too tongue-in-cheek. And frankly was out of place. Yes, the stereotype of a Disney Princess is perkiness, but to not realizing anger was too contrived and shoehorned in.

Disney's Divinity wrote:I only wish I had liked Patrick Dempsey as much as Amy Adams. I know he had sort of a thankless job playing the straight man who reacts in the film, but I really liked the daughter. Of course he was better than Susan Sarandon, who was surprisingly awful. I mean, I used to be a big fan of hers pre-Bernie, but her performance in Enchanted was a real dud.

I usually like Dempsey, but I think he was one of the weaknesses of this film. Here he was too stilted, dull and bland. I didn't care for the daughter either, who was equally bland. But I agree with Sarandon, though. I loved the animated version of Narissa, but her real life counterpart was wasted.

Disney Duster wrote:It's funny because Ariel actually has way more personality than Belle and probably is the most personality-filled Disney heroine, and Rapunzel or Anna are next, which is why all three of those are the best at the parks.

While Ariel is certainly more vivacious than Belle, I don't think that Belle is deprived of any personality. There is a kindness, dignity and likability to Belle that actually elevates her from various Princesses, which is probably one of the reasons why she's so liked. I've noticed how several people have praised her for being interesting.

DisneyFan09 wrote:

Kevin Lima: As I see it, Giselle is the first of the post modern princesses. Before Rapunzel, before Merida, before Elsa and Anna, Giselle fought to redefine the definition of happily ever after. Yes, she pursues love, but learns that the love of self must always come first.

To be honest, I used to find Giselle's arc in the film poorly structured. She manages to make the transformation from the naive stereotype of a Princess to actually be more mature. But I've come to realize that her arc lies in how she becomes proactive to save her love interest. The story never truly affirms that she must learn that her love of self must come first. If anything, the character who actually learns this lesson is Nathaniel. It's pretty remarkable how Nathaniel (besides being a secondary character) is the character with the most overt and satisfying arc. He truly learns that the love of self must come first.

Giselle never didn't love herself.

DisneyFan09 wrote:

Disney Duster wrote:It's funny because Ariel actually has way more personality than Belle and probably is the most personality-filled Disney heroine, and Rapunzel or Anna are next, which is why all three of those are the best at the parks.

While Ariel is certainly more vivacious than Belle, I don't think that Belle is deprived of any personality. There is a kindness, dignity and likability to Belle that actually elevates her from various Princesses, which is probably one of the reasons why she's so liked. I've noticed how several people have praised her for being interesting.

I didn't say she had no personality, I meant that even though Belle is hugely popular, Ariel has the most personality of any princess.

Disney Duster wrote:I didn't say she had no personality, I meant that even though Belle is hugely popular, Ariel has the most personality of any princess.

Don't worry, I didn't say that you said that Belle was personality-deprived. I'm sorry if I implied it.

Oh. Ok. Nah, it's all right.

DisneyFan09 wrote:

Kevin Lima: As I see it, Giselle is the first of the post modern princesses. Before Rapunzel, before Merida, before Elsa and Anna, Giselle fought to redefine the definition of happily ever after. Yes, she pursues love, but learns that the love of self must always come first.

To be honest, I used to find Giselle's arc in the film poorly structured. She manages to make the transformation from the naive stereotype of a Princess to actually be more mature. But I've come to realize that her arc lies in how she becomes proactive to save her love interest. The story never truly affirms that she must learn that her love of self must come first. If anything, the character who actually learns this lesson is Nathaniel. It's pretty remarkable how Nathaniel (besides being a secondary character) is the character with the most overt and satisfying arc. He truly learns that the love of self must come first.

JeanGreyForever wrote:I never liked the angry scene myself as funny as it was to see in theaters. I think Disney Duster said this multiple times before, but it felt bizarre to express this notion that no fairy tale or fantasy character has ever felt angry before. Especially when in the classic Walt films themselves, we've seen Snow White and Cinderella express anger, annoyance, and disapproval. Not to mention other classic heroines like Alice and Wendy.

I found this issue to be a headscratcher as well. Yes, Giselle was supposed to be a stereotype of the classic Disney Princess. But her inability to not grasp anger was somewhat confusing and too tongue-in-cheek. And frankly was out of place. Yes, the stereotype of a Disney Princess is perkiness, but to not realizing anger was too contrived and shoehorned in.

I don't have a problem with Giselle's arc but I agree that if Kevin Lima's intention was for her to learn to love herself first, that doesn't come across at all...with Giselle anyway. It's certainly Nathaniel's arc and far more satisfying like you said. Giselle's development really does occur with her learning to be more proactive and also adopting a more flexible and enlightened view on love, not beholden to the rigid doctrines stemming from traditional fairy tales.

Glad we agree on the angry scene.

Paige O'Hare talks about her cameo in Enchanted.

“It was so much fun. A call out of the blue, I was doing Menopause the Musical at that time in Vegas and I was like ‘Wow,’ to be part of that group… I picked out my outfit, I asked if they wanted a Susan Lucci kind of thing, I love Susan Lucci.” During the shoot, the actor originally cast to play her husband in the Soap Opera got sick and couldn’t do the part. Johnny Depp was interested in the project and wanted to step in to play her emotionally abused spouse, but had another commitment that made him unavailable. Paige wasn’t used to working on a film set, but Director Kevin Lima made if feel easy. “He’s an amazing director and he makes you feel so comfortable on the set… He knows exactly what he wants, he’s very smart.”

Source: https://www.laughingplace.com/w/article ... ter-hours/

That would have been neat if Johnny Depp could have made a cameo appearance and I love that he was interested in doing one. Imo, they should have asked Robby Benson to take his place then.

JeanGreyForever wrote:That would have been neat if Johnny Depp could have made a cameo appearance and I love that he was interested in doing one. Imo, they should have asked Robby Benson to take his place then.

I like the Robby Benson idea!!!

Q: What was the idea of getting Stephen Schwartz on "Enchanted"? Was it an idea from you and the crew or did Alan Menken want to work with him again?

Kevin Lima: I wanted Alan, Alan suggested Stephen.

Q: But Alan was attached to the project before you came on board. He and Glenn Slater had written an opening song for a previous iteration of the story.

Kevin Lima: That is all true! That version of the film existed pre-me and that song was a send up parody song of Belle from Beauty and the Beast. When I attached to direct we went back to the drawing board - wiped the slate clean and started anew.

Q: Do you happen to recall the title of the song? And was that the only song that was written for that version, if you know?

Kevin Lima: It was the only song. I have it on cassette tape somewhere.

Source: https://x.com/GoofyMovieDir/status/1907169088931311619

Oh, man, that sounds like it would have been so cool!

Enchanted is coming to Disney Plus (at least in the US) on 12 November

FINALLY