DVDizzy Forum

Dr Frankenollie wrote:

ajmrowland wrote:ok, now you're refusing to see the good in just about anything.

I'm cultured enough to know i can be happy in this world. are you?

edit

quoted right person, but wrong quote

I think I know what quote you're referring to...

Ajmrowland, I hope you realise that some of what I said wasn't self-pitying jargon; when I talked about pain and suffering, I was referring to the countless people starving in LEDCs, the countless people with incurable illnesses and diseases, the countless people who lose family and friends for no reason, the countless people who are discriminated against and hated. The world is an extremely unhappy place.

However, I am 'cultured' enough to realise that people can still be happy. Please don't visualise me as a nihilistic goth or emo; I can be optimistic and I often very cheerful and happy. I'm pointing out the severe flaws in society and the Earth as a whole to show Duster that a perfect God wouldn't allow such an imperfect world.

i understand. i wasnt referring to self -pitying either. the (Modern) world can be depressing, which is why i prefer to point out the good things, such as invention, historical significance, and art. modern living is boring without it

Disney's Divinity, that was very well said. Thank you.

Super Aurora, yea, but still none of that Greek stuff was something like God making everything by willing it itno existence (they had copulation stories with many gods) or he and the son of God telling people about religion and also instructing people how to be. I read the similarities you pointed to and got them, but pointing out similarities like you and Goliath did is something anyone can do to not wanna listen to something. It's an excuse. Greek myths and Chrsitianity both have impossible things. Christianity has a different kind of impossible things that sound more believable and more like trying to tell humans what is real instead of the Greeks knowingly deciding to make up stories to explain and entertain. I point out the differences, you can choose to ignore them.

I know that Christianity did spread with help by the Romans but I'm syaing it's not all just because of the Romans, it might as well be said that was partly a process that helped the religion spread just as science can explain the process by which things formed into what they did but not why they did. If you don't get what I mean, alas.

SuperAurora wrote:

Disney Duster wrote:Since the Bible does state how God planned events to happen a certain way, who knows if that's how God wanted religion to spread, who knows.

Then I find it hard to believe he such a benevolent and kind God then.

Being a deist, I always prefer an Omnipotent God to be a neutral God who has no affairs in human world given fact he beyond needing anything to do with such beings.

Why would that make him not benevolent?

Anyway, God is kind in a higher sense than the normal one. The kindness of God is not that we never feel pain, just that mostly we never feel to much pain, and then even if sometimes in some cases we do, the end of everything for the good is eternal happiness, it doesn't get any kinder than that. If that's not "enough" for anyone...well...I feel your pain but you probably aren't thinking of it the right way, you must realize why it really is enough, all the pain doesn't matter if in the end your happy forever.

And also, why would God make something he doesn't care about? God may not "intefere" in human affairs but it would make no sense to make something one doesn't care about in the least.

SuperAurora wrote:

Disney Duster wrote:Anything anyone else said that I didn't address, I either don't agree with or am flat out saying is wrong. That's my stand.

And this is why no one take you seriously or get fucking annoyed with you. Just to let you know why you wonder this.

People are supposed to realize anything I say is just what I truly feel, and they are always free to disagree and have their own opinions.

Disney Duster wrote: Super Aurora, yea, but still none of that Greek stuff was something like God making everything by willing it into existence (they had copulation stories with many gods) or he and the son of God telling people about religion and also instructing people how to be.

So? How that make it one is more truth than the other. And of course there will be some differences. But yet overall core and driven purpose and uses behind both religions were very much alike.

To say greek/roman ancient religion is pagen and myth, yet Judeo-Christianity is free of it, is purely laughable and clearly bias viewpoint.

Disney Duster wrote:I read the similarities you pointed to and got them, but pointing out similarities like you and Goliath did is something anyone can do to not wanna listen to something. It's an excuse.

You of all people should not be talking about "not wanting to listen to something" or "excuses". Hell you're doing in this very post.

Anyway we did listen and we listed the things in order to provide you an answer to an explanation you ask. You just chose to ignore it if it doesn't fit in with your ideals and beliefs. As oppose to accepting the actual facts.

Let me ask it this way:
If the bible or God said that we do not evolve and do not come from apes(chimpanzees),

And then now, scientist found and provided facts that we have evolve from apes and share similar DNA(which is all been proven).

Which are you going to believe? Something an ancient book or a Supernatural said(the existence of is unknown)

or

Something that been revealed and proven to be truthful facts by professional scientist after numerous tests and trial?



This is what we meant by you ignoring the facts we have provided to you. you are the one in actuality ignoring us and don't want to admit validity of it.

Disney Duster wrote:Greek myths and Chrsitianity both have impossible things. Christianity has a different kind of impossible things that sound more believable and more like trying to tell humans what is real

What is it with you and these awkward words you say like "different kind of impossible", "un-Disney" etc?

Anyway, I don't see how the stuff in the bible are more believable than other mythologies or religions. This is the same book that said Jonah survive being whole eaten by a whale. If you honestly think that really happen or more believable, then I dunno what to tell you. And funny enough, alot of the miracle or powers the humans in the bible were bless with came from God. In the Greek mythologies, a lot of the things the heroic humans did were thanks to the intervention or blessed powers of Gods or goddesses. Athena is a prime example when she aids Odysseus or Heracles.

Disney Duster wrote:instead of the Greeks knowingly deciding to make up stories to explain and entertain.

Did you not listen to what the fuck I said earlier?

The old testament and ancient mythologies are practically the same in it's purpose. Both had episodic stories that either explain something that happen, tell or teach a moral lesson, or tell events of the god(s). Nothing proves that Christianity is better than the others. Other than fundamentalists telling or manipulating you otherwise.

Disney Duster wrote:I point out the differences,

No you didn't. Hell what you said wasn't any different from what you said before.

Disney Duster wrote:you can choose to ignore them.

On the contrary, you are the one choosing to ignore the examples and even solitary facts I provided. The most you use in your argument is "it use a different kind of impossible" or "it's not the same or believable thing" That's not explaining anything to me.

Disney Duster wrote:I know that Christianity did spread with help by the Romans but I'm syaing it's not all just because of the Romans, it might as well be said that was partly a process that helped the religion spread just as science can explain the process by which things formed into what they did but not why they did.

Are you implying by asking that we don't know WHY it spread? I clearly did answer that to you. why are you ignoring stuff?

Disney Duster wrote:If you don't get what I mean, alas.

OH I do. I think it's YOU who don't. Otherwise you would understand clearly how and why it spread, like I explained in my previous post.

Disney Duster wrote:Why would that make him not benevolent?

Use your head.
You stated this in respond to of "possible means of why Romans and the Church spread Christianity":

Disney Duster wrote:Since the Bible does state how God planned events to happen a certain way, who knows if that's how God wanted religion to spread, who knows.

Now I also said that they(the Romans and later the Church and it's Holy Roman Empire) spread by uses of political power, wars, inquisitions, manipulations(through indulgences etc) and so forth,

Having all that in dealing with: greed, pride, deaths, fighting, consumption and so forth,
I find it very hard for God to be such a benevolent and kind God if he wanted his religion spread like that.

Disney Duster wrote:Anyway, God is kind in a higher sense than the normal one.

I always found this a funny loophole. If God So kind in higher place, how we know he kind to begin with? We never met him or experience anything direct of him. It's funny how they say God works in mysterious ways or we can never understand the mind of GOD, yet they seems to well assured that he's a kind and loving God(even though the one in the old testament was a jealous and brutal one- like sending bears to kill group of children because they made jokes on some old dude) etc.

Disney Duster wrote:The kindness of God is not that we never feel pain, just that mostly we never feel to much pain, and then even if sometimes in some cases we do, the end of everything for the good is eternal happiness, it doesn't get any kinder than that. If that's not "enough" for anyone...well...I feel your pain but you probably aren't thinking of it the right way, you must realize why it really is enough, all the pain doesn't matter if in the end your happy forever.

To me all that comes through sheer human willpower and efforts. Like back in 2008 when I had serious depression and near suicidal thinking attempts, I didn't pull through to get help and improve myself in order win back my happiness, due to "The kindness of God". It was my determination thoughts that said, "I know I can pull this, I have to get better. I want to become a comic artist!" I did it all on my own. Hell even though I'm a deist, a supreme being never even came to my mind. To me it's the will and efforts by powers of human's inner determinations.

Disney Duster wrote:And also, why would God make something he doesn't care about?

He's a God. He can do whatever he pleases. Why he have to be align with one side of force? When I think of a God, I don't think good or evil. I think Neutral.

Disney Duster wrote:God may not "interfere" in human affairs but it would make no sense to make something one doesn't care about in the least.

I wouldn't say care in the same sense you and many christian are lead believe.

Disney Duster wrote:

SuperAurora wrote: And this is why no one take you seriously or get fucking annoyed with you. Just to let you know why you wonder this.

People are supposed to realize anything I say is just what I truly feel, and they are always free to disagree and have their own opinions.

I'm sure we know how you feel, except you often wonder why we also get frustrated with you too. I pointed it out the answer in the bold.


whatever. i'm going take a dump now.

I'm glad to see you're doing all the hard work for me, Super A.

(And doing a good job at it, too!)

Goliath wrote:I'm glad to see you're doing all the hard work for me, Super A.

(And doing a good job at it, too!)

When he comes back to respond. It's your turn. We'll take turns alternating in responding to him.

Super Aurora wrote:When he comes back to respond. It's your turn. We'll take turns alternating in responding to him.

What about me? Admittedly, I haven't replied to him for perhaps several days, but I can go after Goliath?

...

Super Aurora, I have explained over and over how the Bible is different from Greek myths. If you and others here don't get it because you are choosing to not to or whatever reason, fine. The only thing left after that is people believe in the Bible but not Greek and Roman myth. There's something more realistic and believable about what the Bible says. And someone surviving getting eaten by a whale does sound more believable to me than a Greek tale about someone cutting off a sea monsters head to turn people to gold or something. If you don't understand the difference then fine, but I bet you really could if you wouldn't be so mad at me and not caring to even try to get what I mean.

And even if that whale story is only exaggrated, metaphorical, or made up, while only some other things about God are true like that he spoke to Moses, so be it, I'm alright with that, too.

If the Buble told me something and scientists told me the opposite, it would depend and I would go with my own mind and heart. Because even scientists are only using theories and such. I want to decide myself, but if you want to know where I would lean, I probably would purposely decide to lean towards trust in the Bible over what the scientists say, to go with my heart more than mere physical observations. And you and others will probably think that's silly for various logical reasons, but that's you.

I think I do tend to use words that are awkward because I think what I talk about are things out of the ordinary, or that are very subtle, and there aren't too many conventional words to use to describe such things. It sucks for me but I gotta try my best to say what I mean however I can think of.

If God did use war to make people believe, then I do see why you mean he's not benevolent. I can take it or leave it. I can buy him either being behind that, yet still being benevolent because despite all pain and suffering and wicked being destroyed, eternal happiness for the good is true benevolence in the end, or perhaps I would wish for even more benevolence and not have him behind such things.

Anyway, yes, the case with Jude-Christianity is that we can understand some of God but not all of God. We can understand that he's loving (and we could say any happiness we recieve on Earth is us knowing his love) and that he created everything and what he wants for us (which for or most of us is basically just to be good according to what we feel in our hearts is good, and the ten commandments, when interpreted so, are all good to follow). Yes some parts of the Bible seem to paint a not very nice God but I already said I believe God's main word is in the Bible but our God-given brains must discard some things the men who wrote it may have wrongly inserted. I feel when Jesus came, he clarified the real benevolent God, and perhaps the writers of the New Testament had a better source to work with, also more recent.

Now, I didn't know you were depressed. This was 2008, you say? Was it around the end of summer? Because, dude, I went through a major depresson around that time, too. It actually had to do with my beliefs in God...and in humanity...so God (and, surprisingly, logic on God!) helped me through that, so it makes sense that your depression that had more to do with your own abilities, was gotten through more by your will...which was made by God and maybe God did help you through, who knows? But it is so weird we got so depressed around the same time...?!

God loving humans isn't choosing good or evil...though I guess anyone in the world could agree love is good, and since anyone, "bad" or "good" can agree on love, in a way it's neutral...

Disney Duster wrote:I have explained over and over how the Bible is different from Greek myths. If you and others here don't get it because you are choosing to not to or whatever reason, fine. The only thing left after that is people believe in the Bible but not Greek and Roman myth. There's something more realistic and believable about what the Bible says. And someone surviving getting eaten by a whale does sound more believable to me than a Greek tale about someone cutting off a sea monsters head to turn people to gold or something. If you don't understand the difference then fine, but I bet you really could if you wouldn't be so mad at me and not caring to even try to get what I mean.

I think I've tackled this already. Greek and Roman myth NOW is completely unrealistic, and thusly people have ceased to believe in it. Of course, back in ancient times, there was no reason not to believe in it. It made sense to people back then. It offered answers to the questions they had. And all that time, no body knew it was made up. Yet they believed it without doubt.

The same reasoning can be applied to Christianity. Christianity today can be compared to Greek mythology in ancient times. Although right now, in the present, you can say that Christianity has surpassed all other religions because people still believe it today. However, maybe in a hundred years (anytime in the future really), we will have concrete proof that Christianity was made up just like Greek mythology. The only reason why Christianity has survived is because it provided answers to questions that could not be answered at the time of the religion's creation. It's probably been so successful because most of the 'answers' it offers are ones that are impossible to answer in today's world. Perhaps one day we will be able to finally answer those questions logically, and everyone will look back in history and laugh at how silly Christianity was (just like how today we laugh at how silly Greek mythology was).

Disney Duster wrote:If the Buble told me something and scientists told me the opposite, it would depend and I would go with my own mind and heart. Because even scientists are only using theories and such. I want to decide myself, but if you want to know where I would lean, I probably would purposely decide to lean towards trust in the Bible over what the scientists say, to go with my heart more than mere physical observations. And you and others will probably think that's silly for various logical reasons, but that's you.

There are many instances in life when the line between logic and belief (or, as you say "mind vs. heart") is unclear.. and I'm not talking about religion necessarily, I'm talking about ALL aspects of life. I believe that you cannot be blinded by either logic of belief in such a way that you are not looking at the full picture. In other words, you need to carefully look at all sides of the spectrum. Look at all possibilities and measure them with both logic and belief. I'm really not addressing you personally here, this is just a general belief of mine.

Disney Duster wrote:God loving humans isn't choosing good or evil...though I guess anyone in the world could agree love is good, and since anyone, "bad" or "good" can agree on love, in a way it's neutral...

Something irked me about this statement.. I guess I just don't like when people say "anyone can agree that ________". Because I know for a fact all people don't believe that. The same can be applied to your statement here about love.

I think Goliath and Super Aurora have done a superb job addressing you. You continue to say that we 'just don't get what you mean.' I am confident that we understand your opinions.. perhaps you should try to look at our views in a not-so-myopic view.

Disney Duster wrote:Dr Frankenollie, but it is more amazing for everyone to have a choice, a power, to be able to decide to be good or evil, than for God to make everyone be happy. I mean in a way it makes us like God, having choice. And God maybe didn't have to give us a choice but just wanted to because it's great. If you don't think it's great, well that's your negative opinion.

Duster...I know that it's wonderful to have a choice, but God didn't have to make it possible for us to be evil; he could have allowed us to be good or somewhat flawed, but why would he allow us to become completely evil? If God is real, then the fact that he allows us to make even the most despicable of choices (like Hitler's choices, for example) is appalling, as such evil has led to extreme pain and suffering.

Disney Duster wrote:Your idea of the core Christian concept is not how it is.

I was partially joking....

Disney Duster wrote:Like enigmawing beautifully said, (and thank you so much enigmawing, that was GREAT and very well said!), it is through pain and suffering that we can better see our true character. The reason we apologize for sinning is because God knows what we do not, what you do not, and often we sin because we choose badly in a world that has some pain and suffering.

Yes, our true character can be seen via pain and suffering, but some suffer much more than others, so the theory of a 'test' justifying evil still doesn't make sense. As a sidenote, if pain and suffering is a test, then why do Christians try and end it? Why do religious people donate to scientific centres developing a cure for cancer if cancer is just a test to see both the sufferer and their family's true character? Why don't Christians just let innocent children going through miserable pain and agony die if it's part of a test? If life is a test, then it's clear that trying to stop pain and suffering is wrecking God's test; gee, does that mean that all the scientists in the history of the world who found cures for various diseases and illnesses are now in Hell because they ruined God's plans?

Furthermore, Duster, life can't be a test because it would mean that there's no free will. If Bin Laden existed to test the victims of 9/11, then he couldn't have complete free will.

Disney Duster wrote:And you keep saying we have the worst world ever, but that is merely an opinion of yours and others. Not everyone agrees the world is a terrible place, whether it's bad or not will always be opinion. Since just as many people can see the world is good, why not take the more positive route like them?

Duster, seeing the world as a nice place is being ridiculously optimistic. People die all the time not just due to age when it's natural and time for them to pass away, but because of crime, because of suffering, and because of humanity's immense amounts of greed, stupidity and selfishness. I will not see life as more happy than sad until, at the very least, there is total peace, which wll unequivocally not be achieved in my lifetime.

Disney Duster wrote:As for Heaven, if you were the kind of person who would be ready for Heaven when the time came, you would be the kind of person who could be happy in it. Heaven is ctually something grander than the world or anything you can imagine, and you are using logic of your biological human body on Earth to say you think you wouldn't like heaven, which is something impossible for your very mind to imagine or understand all of. Generally, I think you can understand that in heaven, most likely a feeling would overcome you that you felt happy forever and didn't worry about anything, not even the fact that you were to be in heaven forever. You just wouldn't want anything else. Yes, you worry on Earth now, but this ain't heaven. You just have no idea what exactly it will be like.

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Disney Duster wrote:You should ask forgiveness for saying negative things about God and calling him negative names.

Well guys, when I allowed for this thread to be opened, I stated it would be closed if any personal attacks or complaints were made. I have received three complaints about this thread today, therefore it is being closed. I'm impressed that this thread stayed opened as long as it did.