DVDizzy Forum

TM2-Megatron wrote:Lol, you call what we have here a civilization?

I think I get the joke. *sneaky smiley*

TM2-Megatron wrote:people holding the opposite viewpoint would simply point out the contradiction when you said ... that abortion is, in essence "making another person's decision for them" which, in this case, would be making the child's decision not to exist

That would be true, except, the child cannot and does not exist without the mother's body. So therefore, the argument you've mentioned is completely null and void. I can understand how some people could be confused by that. But still, it's really simple.

Spongebob Squarepants wrote:Lazario, it doesn't matter if I say the leaves on a tree is green, your gonna come back and say their blue. Nothing anybody says on this board seems to please you.

That's not true. You just want to believe it is, because then I would be an easy person for you to pigeonhole.

Spongebob Squarepants wrote:Are you afraid of God? So you just keep running away? It's pretty silly that you don't believe that Satan is real too. Another lame exuse.

No, I'm afraid of being stupid - that's why I'm not religious. God might actually not be real, and I'm not going to take the chance and say he/she/it is or isn't real. However, again, religion itself is not necessary for me. Surely, you can understand that, I mean - you do feel that we should be able to decide for ourselves what we believe in...

Spongebob Squarepants wrote:People are just shunning the oppurtunity and doing what they want to do.

You're against that ideal? I don't see why we need to delegate what people have to and don't have to do, why can't we just let people decide things for themselves? Only each of us knows what we go through personally, no one else can understand everything about how we live and what we feel. So, hows about we stop exploiting people to make religion seem necessary? It's still a private thing, you know. We struggle alone and we die alone. So, I say we continue letting the individual be master of their own destiny.

Spongebob Squarepants wrote:We are going through the end times right now, Revelations. Don't believe me? Look in the Bible and see!

Would you like some l'orange for yourself, because you're going Quackers.

Reminds me of an argument I've heard in favor of anarchy---why do we need laws? The good people don't need'em and the bad people don't obey'em. I think the same can be said for dogma.

As for Revelations...the late great Sun Ra believed we're living <i>after</i> the end of the world. I'm not sure exactly what he meant, but it's at least as intellgigble as any literal reading of Revelations I've yet to hear.

2099net wrote:I am however, a firm believer in the Human Race. [...] I believe in mankind, and I believe it will ultimately do the right thing.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Finally someone with exactly the same views I share, and this paragraph basically sums up my feelings towards the world and my views about it. I firmly believe in people, and their capability to do great and astounding things. In the end, when we boil all the bells and whistles down, all we are left with is each other, and our need to survive, and I believe that time and time again humanity has [and will] prove itself and overcome critical situations on its own. Bravo! Wonderful post. Can't say I disagree with a single thing you wrote.

I am a Christian, specifically Disciples of Christ.

Lazario wrote:

TM2-Megatron wrote:people holding the opposite viewpoint would simply point out the contradiction when you said ... that abortion is, in essence "making another person's decision for them" which, in this case, would be making the child's decision not to exist

That would be true, except, the child cannot and does not exist without the mother's body. So therefore, the argument you've mentioned is completely null and void. I can understand how some people could be confused by that. But still, it's really simple.

I'm not sure whether they can do it yet, but I doubt you really need the mother's body to grow an embryo to full development anymore... and if nobody has ever tried it, I'm sure it could be acccomplished fairly easily if you threw enough money at it. They've been doing it in sci-fi movies for decades, lol.

Again... not trying to advocate anti-abortion stuff, because I do believe it should be legal and available to anyone who wants it, however the people you're opposed to won't just accept the statement their argument is "null and void" just because the kid supposedly requires the mother's body for 9 months or so (an inconvenience, to be sure).

Personally, I'm more concerned about the laws revolving around time travel, whenever it becomes necessary to draft some. Canada's already settled this abortion crap, so why's it still a debate? But time travel's a whole other story... much trickier, if you ask me.

Spongebob Squarepants wrote: Are you afraid of God? So you just keep running away? It's pretty silly that you don't believe that Satan is real too.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I found it kind of funny. I mean, who could be afraid of God, even if it/he/she did exist? Assuming that for a moment, then God's pretty much the most ineffectual being in the history of the Uni/Multiverse... indeed pretty much all the Uni/Multverses that've ever existed. God's list of threats and punishments has always been pretty short... he can damn you to hell, flood your planet (this one's not even that bad, if you ask me), turn you into salt (I don't know how this is punishment, but whatever), maybe put you in a room alone with Jerry Lewis if he really wants to torture you... But honestly, I've heard better stuff out of the most clichéd of the Saturday-morning cartoon line-up of villains.

When I die (or if, since I want to be cryogenically frozen), if I actually do end up being "judged" and the whole God thing ends up being true, I'll probably be more likely than not to tell God off as opposed to cowering in terror... somebody's got to let it/him/her know what a bad job was done in creating this world, and probably many other worlds, too (although I'll let them speak for themselves).

I'm afraid it takes a whole lot more than mere omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence to impress me.

TM2-Megatron,

I mean this sensitively, with a kind tone. I get the impression (and I could be wrong) that you are angry about something. Maybe it happened to you or someone close to you or maybe it is just based on your observation of the world. What is it you have observed (or experienced) that has so strongly turned you off to belief in the existence of God? Hypothetically, if there is a God, what would you have him do differently to demonstrate he exists?

I won't speak for TM2-Megatron, but I will answer since for non-believers I think this is one of the easiest questions to answer. Look at the world we live in. For a moment open up a news website and check out the head lines. I swear I haven't seen good news as a prime headline in years. I mean, if it were only poverty and famine, I wouldn't be nearly as angry. But look at the world that has been shapen (and a lot of it is happening in the name of religion). Hate crimes, terror in the name of Allah (sp?), genocides all over (from Germany of the 30's up to recent events in North Korea). For someone to ask me how I've become a non-believer, I think it's a no-brainer. I find it difficult to be asked to believe in a being that lets chaos rule and denies his own "children" of any kind of help. I've stopped believing long ago, and it would take a true miracle to make me even consider believing again at all (I don't even wanna think how long it would take someonce to convince me that religion is a positive thing again).

[quote="2099net"]

I really don't understand how something so good and well-meaning as religion can cause so much trouble. It's a fact of life the world would be better off without it - as Escapy said, most of the teachings of the major religions are nothing but common sense and politeness.

Personally, I'm a rational man, and as a rational man, I cannot see one single shred of proof (any) God exists. But I can see suffering exist. True, most of it is man-made suffering leaving open the argument for the "true nature of free will", but not all of it is.

Was the Boxing Day Tsunami a result of man's folly? About a quarter of a million people died - for no good reason. There was no divine lesson to be learned, no inspirational bookend to the suffering of those who survived without family and friends. No ultimate truth for those left without homes or possessions. Like I said, I don't believe in any God, but if there is a God, I can see no sane or rational reason for him allowing such tragedy to exist.

As for the other suffering, there's untold suffering in this world we could stop in an instant (metaphorically speaking).

We could feed the poor - a fraction of the money the West spends on arms could feed the whole of Africa.

We could ensure everyone has clean, sanitised water.

Heck, we could stop polluting the environment and (possibly*) creating climate change which will only make the situation worse in Africa - through no fault of its population's own.

We could stop child labour, prostitution and slavery.

We could actually do something about all cruel and unjust dictators in the world (not just Saddam) - the fact that Mugabe is still ruling Zimbabwe and Britain and other Commonwealth countries do nothing to aid the former Commonwealth member shames me greatly.

Yet I see no Christian country or government, including "Born Again" President Bush doing this in anything less than a half-hearted manner.

It appears the main reason for people believing in God is that they fail to believe how something as complex and diverse as creation "happened". They say, there must be some form of divine intervention. But again, as a rational man, how can I accept this argument? If we are to complex to have been created without guidance, who created the infinitely more complex god(s) who shaped and guided our formation?

quote]

Your trying to see with your eyes,not your heart.

Lazario-your just making excuses not to believe.

I 've tried talking to some of you but it just doesn't seem to do any good. I'm not going to force anyone though. Your choice is open.

Spongebob Squarepants wrote:Lazario-your just making excuses not to believe.

What makes you think that that takes effort to accomplish? Life gives us excuses, all I'm doing is applying them.

Well, I've been away for a little while, and now I'm back, I'm going to share my views on the subjects being discussed.

I think Escapay's description of religion/the Bible is pretty easy to agree with. Times were very different back in the days when the Bible was written, and I really don't believe you can take much of it in without reading it in the context it was written in. Unfortunately, I don't believe that enough people take this top tip. Many people are using the Bible as a weapon and believing that they're right. And I'm affraid to say that in the USA, from what I've read/seen, this is happening a lot. The Harry Potter novels are claimed to be the work of Satan and the occult by some Christian groups as they promote witchcraft (a totally stupid view point as fantasy is not reality ), for example.

Then there's the whole thing to do with religion and politics in the States. You know, I've said a number of times that I'm a liberal. Well, I've done some re-examining of my brain and I can say that I'm more an independent when it comes to political views, a. It pains me to say this, as I know that there are surely educated conservatives (and I can see reason in some of the theories), but the reason that I claimed myself to be a liberal is that due to a lot of the Christian conservatives, I honestly started to believe that liberal was a synonum for open-minded. Bush isn't a favourite of mine, and I can safely say that he, for one, is not looking at things in context when it comes to religion. Then there's Ann Coulter. I'm sorry, but I don't feel any sorrow for her when she gets abuse. What she said about conservation and how God intends you to pollute the environment disturbed me, a theory I find to be blasphemous. And she's shown herself to be a full on racist what with her wicked statements against all Muslims calling them "rag-heads" (moaning about evil fanatics is one thing, but a lot of what she says are just narrow minded prejudeces) and implying that she believes in South African and Israel/Palestinian apartheid. They weren't aimed at me, but any racist or needless xenophobic attack that I hear makes me really angry, and due to there being a sizable Muslim population in Europe due to post-war events and imperial links, I feel that I have a right to disagree with what she says, as all Muslims that I have met aren't the Middle Eastern equivalents of Nazis. And don't get me started on what she said about the 9/11 widows, but that would be off-topic, and the racism thing was getting off topic a bit too.

This is subsequently why atheists/non-religious people are beginning to attack Christians. Because a lot of them are acting like complete idiots.

Wonderlicious wrote:This is subsequently why atheists/non-religious people are beginning to attack Christians. Because a lot of them are acting like complete idiots.

BINGO! You hit the nail on the head with that statement. It's a shame too, because religion can function as something beautiful and admiring, yet fanatics go out of their way to twist the ideas of a once beautiful concept.

Well, I know this has not come quite on the verge of locking yet, and it has gone off-topic about abortion(which, I'm not even going to disscuss here, because no matter what our "left-wing" friend says, it's NOT a simple issue)however, one thing Mr. Net said that I want to discuss.

2099net wrote: Heck, we could stop polluting the environment and (possibly*) creating climate change which will only make the situation worse in Africa - through no fault of its population's own...

* No matter what your opinion is on climate change (and I'll admit I'm not 100% convinced, but close to being), don't you think it would be a good idea to try and do something about it now rather than just endlessly debate the evidence? Even if the scientists are wrong, isn't it better to be safe rather than sorry when you're gambling with the future of the entire planet?

You mean, like the ozone layer? Last I heard, there was a big hole in it, and according to both the democratic party and green party, if we didn't find a way to fix it, by not driving cars, the Earth would eventually explode. Well, just a little patience and what do you know, the ozone layer fixed ITSELF! I guess Al Gore must've been disappointed that day.

While I don't have a problem with us trying to be safe, the liberals just really get NASTY and try to actually make us think we're fools and say we need to drive less, or the Earth will explode. The thing is though, many of those liberals probably use more gas and do more stuff to damage the Earth than anyone else! Yet, there first to point fingers!

There's just not way pollution can cause global warming and eventually destroy Earth . It's just NOT true. Yes, we've had heat waves and hurricanes, but c'mon, those things have happened since the beginning of time! Ice ages anyone? Yes 2005 had "more hurricanes than any year" but notice this year we've hardly had any???

While you may not see the point of some religions, and some do get over-religious(specifically one who claim Harry Potter is a work of Satan ) most religous groups believe believe things will come alright in the end. I strongly believe this to, and scientifically is also fact as well, just look at the ozone layer!

I'm sorry, but it just gets annoying that people keep waiting for the end of the world to happen, and turn nasty, then blame it all on the republican party. Al Gore is just insane. I'm sorry, but he is, to the point he should belong in a mental hospital. Why not work on something else then try to make everyone worry about the end of the Earth?

This is just one issue I can not see even WHERE the other side is even coming from at all.

It's sad to see earlier that I typed that what's going on in the world is part of Revelations. When someone corrected me on this..did you even check to see? Are you just lazy not to read the Bible? And to blame everything on President Bush doesn't mean that all Christians are like that. Also Aithiests say they don't believe in God, well why do they make such a big deal about taking God out of In God We Trust? Why should that offend them if they don't believe in God? This country was founded on God people! Now I know someone's gonna come back and try to correct me again.So why doesn't this thread get locked? We're just going to have more posts from people who say how they can't believe and making up stuff for their own ways and how Lazario doesn't make excuses. I've tried to help. Maybe one day you will see that. Good day!

Spongebob Squarepants wrote:Also Aithiests say they don't believe in God, well why do they make such a big deal about taking God out of In God We Trust? Why should that offend them if they don't believe in God?

And a large amount say "Oh my God", yet they don't believe in God.

Spongebob Squarepants wrote:This country was founded on God people! Now I know someone's gonna come back and try to correct me again. So why doesn't this thread get locked?

This country was founded on the freedom to be allowed to worship whomever you pleased, regardless if it be God, Allah, Buddha, a rock in the garden, a blade of grass, etc. Just because many of the early settlers in the good ole US of A were of a Christian orthodox (be it Roman Catholic, Protestant, etc.), doesn't mean the country was founded solely as a Christian-worshipping government.

This thread does not get locked because unlike other locked threads, I haven't seen any hostility between anyone. Sure, the topic at hand can get heated up in a good debate/argument, but I've seen nothing but people expressing their points of view, and other people disagreeing or agreeing with their points of view. Disagreeing with a point of view is natural, but it doesn't make said point of view "wrong".

It's always been my belief that despite his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence, God still gave man Free Will in order that they make choices *they* believe is right. He loves people, regardless if they believe in him or not. I don't force my beliefs on anyone else and I don't like it when I see people force their beliefs on others (be it "Believe in God or you'll burn in hell!!!" or "Aw come on, just read the Bible and you'll open your eyes to a wonderful world!"), because if anything, belief and faith must be something someone finds by his or herself.

Anyways, I find the whole argument of whether and why someone does or doesn't believe in God is pretty laughable. People often like to stick to their beliefs, so conversions are almost always pretty slim. Many people I know are fallen Christians, in that they were brought up, but have since fell out of the Church (didn't hurt much, no visible scarring, but some have limps, lol). Some people just lose faith (the Spiritual Lost and Found is down the hall by the Born Again Virgins Maternity Ward, by the way), and some just don't like the Catholic system, but choose to still believe in God.

Escapay

Escapay wrote:

Spongebob Squarepants wrote:This country was founded on God people! Now I know someone's gonna come back and try to correct me again. So why doesn't this thread get locked?

This country was founded on the freedom to be allowed to worship whomever you pleased, regardless if it be God, Allah, Buddha, a rock in the garden, a blade of grass, etc. Just because many of the early settlers in the good ole US of A were of a Christian orthodox (be it Roman Catholic, Protestant, etc.), doesn't mean the country was founded solely as a Christian-worshipping government.

I agree with you, to some extent Escapay. The country was not founded as a Christian-worshipping country. However it was found as a Christian and Diest country. All the founders believed in a higher creator, no matter what that creator would be; God, Allah, Budda, etc., etc., etc.

Another thing that someone told me about the Bill of Rights. In the Bill of Rights, it says "Freedom of Religion". They said, if you take that literally it means that you have a freedom to pick a religion, not freedom to choose if you want religion or not (aethism by this term would not be protected under the Bill of Rights). Yet that definition is rather absurd, but that is what it they said. Someone with very good grammer would be able to give a direct or maybe multiple definitons.

Timon/Pumbaa fan wrote:You mean, like the ozone layer? Last I heard, there was a big hole in it, and according to both the democratic party and green party, if we didn't find a way to fix it, by not driving cars, the Earth would eventually explode. Well, just a little patience and what do you know, the ozone layer fixed ITSELF! I guess Al Gore must've been disappointed that day.

For the record:

Researchers have no doubt that the increase in ozone is because nations followed the 1987 Montreal Protocol on the Substances that Deplete the Ozone. The Montreal Protocols phased out many halogenated hydrocarbons that had played a role in ozone depletion.

from <a href="http://news.com.com/2300-11395_3-6111282-1.html">the story</a> at CNet news.com.

castleinthesky wrote:Another thing that someone told me about the Bill of Rights. In the Bill of Rights, it says "Freedom of Religion". They said, if you take that literally it means that you have a freedom to pick a religion, not freedom to choose if you want religion or not (aethism by this term would not be protected under the Bill of Rights). Yet that definition is rather absurd, but that is what it they said. Someone with very good grammer would be able to give a direct or maybe multiple definitons.

I think what the Bill of Rights means is that everyone within this country would be allowed the *choice* to follow a religion, or choose not to have one, without any condemnation from the government.

Likely, this could just be a way of putting on paper our own natural rights, but at the same time, giving Protestants a chance to openly practice their faith (since at the time, only the Church of England was the "allowed" practiced religion).

Escapay

To those who say they don't beleive in God just because the world has chaos that isn't created by free-will and humans, consider that God is trying to see if people will start hating him just because bad things happen to them. It's like the story of Job. The devil told God that Job, who loved God dearly, would no longer love him if he had a horrible life. God took away Job's wife and children, and made other terrible things happen to Job, but Job still loved God. I suppose this could be viewed as cruel. But because Job continued to love God, the other parts of the Bible teach that he would have had a very good place in heaven, making up for everything. Wouldn't you be okay with being hurt as long as you got a just reward that exceeded the pain you endured? You earn your place in Heaven.

Of course, I wish that you got a happy ending no matter what you did. Everyone would get into Heaven. It's not clear what Heaven is. Revelations says that after the end of the world, we get our bodies back, and a new Earth is made. I suppose God repleaces our government, so if Hitler got into Heaven, he couldn't take over. But taking over is what makes him happy, right? Well, God would give him something else that makes him much happier. Or maybe Hitler will realize something that makes him no longer a power-hungry dictator.

Actually, I'm really open to any debate about all of this. I'm curious myself what other people think. Ultimate Disney is where I learn things! Hmmmm...educational and entertaining!

Timon/Pumbaa fan wrote:no matter what our "left-wing" friend says, it's NOT a simple issue

You're right, it's not simple. But the only thing that makes it complicated is the fact that some people don't want us to choose what we do with our bodies. But like I've said a thousand times - you cannot tell a woman she cannot have an abortion ever. That decision cannot be made for her, not until those trying are willing to take on the responsibility, at every level. Which they won't do, can't do, and shouldn't do. End of story. And that is a pretty damn simple fact, if you ask me.

Spongebob Squarepants wrote:So why doesn't this thread get locked? We're just going to have more posts from people who say how they can't believe and making up stuff for their own ways and how Lazario doesn't make excuses.

Yeah and you're just going to have to find some way to actually deal with that. Poor thing. Right now, you're making excuses for why we should all believe in God. "This country was founded on God" - yeah, and almost everyone's interpretation of God is different. So what? What's your point? This thread shouldn't be locked just because the nonbelievers make you sad. It's inevitable that some people just aren't going to believe. I hope you're going to be alright with that, because life is just going to become one great big, huge disappointment for you if you need to feel everyone believes

Escapay wrote:This country was founded on the freedom to be allowed to worship whomever you pleased, regardless if it be God, Allah, Buddha, a rock in the garden, a blade of grass, etc.

A-freaking-men