DVDizzy Forum

farerb wrote:I agree with you, I mean in the end it's the directors' job to take the parts of the film and create a cohesive whole. The same thing happened on Hercules:

Alan Menken wrote:When we started out I was thinking we would write a very classically influenced score; thus the musical style of our lamented cut song, “Shooting Star”. But the request from John and Ron was to have this be a “gospel” score. I asked them “Why gospel?” And their logic was, “Gospel music is written to sing about God, just as our Hero is one of “the gods”. Okay… I was skeptical. But I was game to try anything. In the end, I think that choice worked well.

(but I'm sure there's a good explanation for why it was okay for Hercules but not for Tangled).

Ah. I assumed you brought up Tangled to tell us we should feel similar pity for Miranda that we did Menken (I don't in large part because Menken was more of a proven quantity by 2010 than I feel Miranda is, and I hadhave much less faith in the judgment of Tangled's directors than Menken's, whereas here I don't have much faith in anyone involved). Seems I was right we're being told what we should think, just on a different track than expected; it's almost like you changed direction midstream. First you were sad Miranda was being treated what you saw as being similar to Menken by the Tangled directors, now you're defending the directors' treatment of Menken. What a fast reverse.

Disney's Divinity wrote:First you were sad Miranda was being treated what you saw as being similar to Menken by the Tangled directors, now you're defending the directors' treatment of Menken. What a fast reverse.

Farerb was just agreeing with part of what I said, not defending how the directors treated Menken. And I don't defend they way they treated him either, by the way. As I said, I think they should've been more respectful to him.

It's still a flip-flop.

Singer Adassa, who provides the voice for Mirabel's cousin Dolores, has just revealed that a new sneak peek will drop soon. Hopefully, it's a new trailer.

By the way, one interesting detail about the new family tree image is that Pedro, the grandfather, has a book under his arm. He's also shown with a book in his hand in the portrait from the artbook cover. I guess that means he liked reading or perhaps telling stories.

Disney's Divinity wrote:Seems I was right we're being told what we should think, just on a different track than expected; it's almost like you changed direction midstream. First you were sad Miranda was being treated what you saw as being similar to Menken by the Tangled directors, now you're defending the directors' treatment of Menken. What a fast reverse.

It's not surprising if you're familiar with how farerb operates. He loves making false equivalences in order to present his opinions as factual, objective, and unbiased whilst attacking people who disagree with him in a passive-aggressive manner. Here, he tried to make it seem that the Encanto directors turned down LMM's ideas or creatively stifled him like the Tangled directors did to Menken. This was based on a single vague sentence that doesn't even express that. In fact, in the GMA piece, Byron Howard says that LMM achieved his vision of telling "a definitive Latin-American Disney musical" and the writer Castro Smith admits that "he really influenced a lot of the characters and a lot of the story." The truth is LMM's level of involvement with this film in unprecedented. It's incredibly rare that a songwriter is allowed so much input on a movie musical that goes back to its very inception. Equating this to Menken's situation with Tangled was intellectually dishonest. Then, after believing he struck a "gotcha" and because he likes Tangled, he tried to defend the Tangled directors by making another false equivalence. Musker and Clements suggesting a genre of music before the songwriting process had even began does not compare to the way Menken was disregarded, disrespected, and sidelined on Tangled by any stretch of the imagination. This may have seemed like a flip-flop if you didn't know he never actually believed Menken was mistreated on Tangled. He simply used people's perception of that as a silencing technique against LMM detractors and to make a point about how certain members are biased and have double standards. It was all very calculated.

Sotiris wrote:The truth is LMM's level of involvement with this film in unprecedented. It's incredibly rare that a songwriter is allowed so much input on a movie musical that goes back to its very inception.

That's true. Howard Ashman had a great deal of involvement back when, writing dialogue, forming characters, etc. But it's even more than that here with LMM. The entire basis of this film--and I'd argue Moana as well--revolved around what he probably wanted to do and what his music would fit. Even the race of the cast and location of the film, while I am glad to have a Latina princess after all this time (ditto to Moana and its Polynesian setting), was likely entirely at the behest of Miranda, not something the directors just wanted to do. He does have unprecedented control at Disney. Menken never even had the same level of involvement as Ashman had, I don't think, much less what Miranda has now.

I'd say Miranda has more control than the Lopezes for that matter, and the Lopezes actually delivered on Frozen (no denying "Let It Go" is a part of the zeitgeist). Very odd. It's why I still think a lot of it comes down to Miranda's political connections.

It was just announced that Encanto will only have a 30-day exclusive theatrical release before landing on Disney+ whereas the rest of Disney's movies for 2021 (The Last Duel, Ron’s Gone Wrong, Eternals, West Side Story, The King’s Man) will have a 45-day window. I wonder why Encanto was singled out. Do they not have confidence in the title or do they have too much in it? It's hard to understand Disney's strategy nowadays.

^The reason for Encanto's reduced window is that they want to offer it at no extra cost for Disney+ subscribers on Christmas Day. It's a bit like what they did with Soul, only that Encanto will play in theaters during a whole month before hitting Disney+.

So, they're using it as an incentive to gain more subscribers? I guess that means they're expecting high demand for the title.

At least it actually will be in a theater, unlike Luca. I'm grateful I was able to see Raya (if there hadn't been a pandemic and I was already risking it seeing the film then, I probably would've went back to see it again while it was in theaters). I want to see this at least once, too. At least a short window like this gives me incentive to watch it earlier than I normally would, I suppose.

Disney's Divinity wrote:The entire basis of this film--and I'd argue Moana as well--revolved around what he probably wanted to do and what his music would fit.

In Moana's case, it was John Musker's idea to make a film set in the Pacific Islands. Miranda was one of the last people hired to work on the film, so I don't think he had a say in what story to tell or where to set it on that occasion. According to what Musker and Clements or producer Osnat Shurer said in interviews, he was hired before Hamilton became a big sensation and wasn't as famous as he is now. Now, though, after all the success he's had, I think it is possible they asked him what project he would like to do or decided to make a film set in Latin America just because of him. I don't think it's due to his political connections, though, but because Disney wants to take advantage of the momentum he's having, and of course, of his talent. I don't think that's necessarily bad. As you said, it's very similar to what they did with Ashman. They also asked him what project he would like to work on (of the ones they were developing at the moment) and let him choose the partner he wanted to have to do the music (as we know, he chose Menken), among ather things.

Sotiris wrote:So, they're using it as an incentive to gain more subscribers? I guess that means they're expecting high demand for the title.

I guess so, though maybe Encanto was partly chosen for this because they wanted to release one title on Christmas Day, and due to its release date, it was the one whose window was less affected by the change. I don't know why, but it seems that time of the year is quite important for streaming services. Maybe it's that are a lot of people who buy subscriptions as a present for Christmas, or perhaps people are more likely to commit to a yearly subscription when a new year is about to start.

By the way, I think you and Disney's Divinity are wrong about Farerb. But, even if you were right, there's no need to expose the defects of others that way. We're human and we're all biased in one way or another. I know I am, even if I try not to be. We could do the same with any other member if we wanted, but why not focus on the topic at hand (especially today that there has been so much new info to discuss), rather than on the small differences between us?

Thanks so much for sharing the GMA information, farerb!!! So, when it said that Isabela is an antagonist, do you think they mean just sibling rivalry since Isabela and Mirabel are opposites, or do you think that Isabela is the antagonist of the film?!
And yes, why are they hiding Bruno? Is he bad? Is Isabela bad? Who's bad?! (Lol, quoting Michael Jackson.).

And I agree with D82 about farerb. I try to stay out of the drama here since I'm not here for that, but it made me sad to read people saying things about them sharing their opinion...

So Encanto won't have Premier Access? I guess I'll have to break my spell of not going to the movie theater for it. [Edit: I had missed that all the rest of the 2021 films go straight to theaters. https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2G6223]

And as someone who is horrible with names, I'm struggling to keep up with who is who in this movie. . But I'm super excited for it.

I also think if he didn't pass away, Ashman would have been heavily involved with Aladdin as it was his idea and it was a story that was very close and personal to him. I recall the song "Proud of Your Boy" was even inspired by Ashman's own relationship with his mother. The final film would have probably been slightly different.

Regarding Menken's treatment on Tangled, ever since Alan Menken went to work with John Lasseter at Skydance Animation, I've started to believe less in the conspiracy theories that he was treated horribly on Tangled or that Lasseter disliked him and wanted to push him away. If those were the case, I doubt he would want to work with Lasseter. Between his current film, television and stage commitments, he's certainly not lacking for work and money. So it's not a case of him taking the job out of desperation, either.

It's too bad there's no "Sweatbox"-style documentary for Tangled- we sure need it to get a clear vision of how everyone handled the situation/was handled back then...

D82 wrote:As you said, it's very similar to what they did with Ashman.

Yes, it is similar--it's also not the same, I noted the reasons why. Miranda has unprecedented control at Disney for a composer / lyricist. I believe that's a true statement.

As for the other stuff, I think the only disappointment here is they probably put out that bait hoping for a more fierce response to get someone in trouble rather than a measured one that simply disagreed with them and pointed out how they contradicted themselves. That's not my idea of a peaceful actor, but if you buy that, feel free. That's all I'll say. It's too bad only certain people will get your defense. Tells me something about you as well. It's why I don't see most of you people as friendly no matter what you pretend to be.

estefan wrote: Regarding Menken's treatment on Tangled, ever since Alan Menken went to work with John Lasseter at Skydance Animation, I've started to believe less in the conspiracy theories that he was treated horribly on Tangled or that Lasseter disliked him and wanted to push him away. If those were the case, I doubt he would want to work with Lasseter. Between his current film, television and stage commitments, he's certainly not lacking for work and money. So it's not a case of him taking the job out of desperation, either.

I take that more as an example of Menken showing kindness. Now their roles have been reversed and Lasseter is the one with little power to leverage over anybody to harm their career, Menken could've treated him the same way he had been treated and chose not to work with him, made very derogatory personal statements about Lasseter to help twist the knife, etc. That doesn't mean what happened prior simply didn't happen because the person who was harmed chose to leave it behind them....

Disney's Divinity wrote:It's too bad only certain people will get your defense. Tells me something about you as well. It's why I don't see most of you people as friendly no matter what you pretend to be.

That's not fair or accurate. D82 regularly defends others including you and me when the occasion presents itself. He's a genuinely nice person who sees the good in people and just wants everyone to get along.

Disney's Divinity wrote:That doesn't mean what happened prior simply didn't happen because the person who was harmed chose to leave it behind them....

The whole Lasseter not liking Menken discourse is based on facts and logical deductions. Lasseter canceled a feature Menken was directing that was greenlit by the previous management. He replaced him on The Princess and the Frog. He replaced him on Frozen. He only hired him for Tangled because the retooled movie had a short production schedule and Menken had a reputation for writing songs quickly (this is straight out of Glenn Slater's mouth.) On the film itself, not only he was allowed limited input and had his ideas shot down, but the songs that did end up getting written and recorded were either butchered (like the verses removed from Mother Knows Best) or eliminated at the last second (like a reprise of When Will My Life Begin and the end credit song Wind in My Hair). While some of that can be blamed on the directors, clearly not everything was their fault. They were likely given directives from Lasseter which is unsurprising given his reputation as a micromanager. It's highly plausible they were instructed to limit the musical elements in the film in the aftermath of The Princess and the Frog's underperformance.

Moreover, Lasseter had given every other composer/songwriter he had worked with additional projects except Menken. If not at WDAS, then at the other studios he run, Pixar and DisneyToon. It stands to reason that if you enjoy working with someone and you appreciate their talents, you invite them to work with you again. He never pursued another collaboration with him of any kind. Menken wasn't even invited back to score the short Tangled Ever After. And Tangled was a success. The first one in ages. There was no valid reason to not give a person who contributed greatly to its success another project to work on.

Obviously, no one has ever suggested that Lasseter was openly hostile towards him. Menken probably never became aware that Lasseter wasn't fond of him or his work. As to why Lasseter invited him to write the songs for Spellbound at Skydance? Well, after he fell from grace, his options were limited. Who's to say he didn't reach out first to the Lopezes or LMM and got turned down? None of them would be willing to leave WDAS or risk damaging their reputation by associating with him. Menken would because he's a bit naive and desperate to work on an original movie musical. He says that in practically every interview he gives; that he wants to work on an original project and not just keep writing a couple of new songs for the remakes. He's always incredibly grateful when someone asks to work with him to the point he never turns down an offer (probably because he knows he's not in demand anymore and can't be picky) which leads to him taking questionable jobs like that song he wrote for a Dubai theme park.

If all of the above are still not enough for some people and they want to keep labeling this a "conspiracy theory", that's fine. They only make themselves look obstinate and simple-minded.

Thanks, Sotiris. I've had a difficult day since I read Disney's Divinity's post and I'm very grateful for your words. You and Disney's Divinity are two of my favorite members here and I didn't want to lose our good relationship, but so is Farerb and it seemed you two wanted him to get "cancelled" or something, so I felt I should intervene. If Disney's Divinity, for example, had been the one being attacked, I would've done the same for him.

I'm sorry you think that of me, Disney's Divinity. I wish you could believe me and we could still be friends. Either way, you've always been nice to me and I'll always be grateful to you for that. I also want to apologize if my responses to your other comments seemed a bit harsh. It wasn't my intention, but I understand it may have seemed so. I wasn't trying to discredit your opinion or convince you. I respect your opinion, and even partly agree with it; I just wanted to express my point of view.

Sotiris wrote:Moreover, Lasseter had given every other composer/songwriter he had worked with additional projects except Menken.

I think it's only telling in that he likely restricted others from being able to bring on Menken, if they had wanted. Like with M&C on Moana, for example. I wonder if the song in Ralph Breaks the Internet would've happened without Lasseter's ouster either? The funny thing is Tangled was a success despite everything. The directors seemed to hate that the film was a musical altogether and I believe the only reason the film wasn't cancelled after TP&TF was because it was too far along to do so. After its success, the studio reversed course immediately. But as much as they imitated Tangled with other musicals and female-driven films, the composer for that success wasn't brought back. That alone implied some kind of resentment on Lasseter's part, because it definitely didn't make sense from a business perspective.

Disney's Divinity wrote:But as much as they imitated Tangled with other musicals and female-driven films, the composer for that success wasn't brought back. That alone implied some kind of resentment on Lasseter's part, because it definitely didn't make sense from a business perspective.

Excellent point.

D82 wrote:Thanks, Sotiris. I've had a difficult day since I read Disney's Divinity's post and I'm very grateful for your words. You and Disney's Divinity are two of my favorite members here and I didn't want to lose our good relationship, but so is Farerb and it seemed you two wanted him to get "cancelled" or something, so I felt I should intervene. If Disney's Divinity, for example, had been the one being attacked, I would've done the same for him.

I know that, D82. And don't worry. No one is getting canceled. I was simply ticked off at farerb in the moment because he pulled the same stunt before. But I regret making that comment. It was out of line. And as a moderator, I need to hold myself to a higher standard and set a good example for others. I was actually preparing to respond to some of the new information you posted about Encanto when I got sidetracked. I will be posting it shortly and hopefully that will get the thread back on track.

D82 wrote:One symbol we haven't seen in other materials is the hourglass. I wonder if that means someone can control time. There's a sundial right below the grandmother in the poster and hourglass symbols on the tiles above her, so maybe she's the one who can do that.

Perhaps Bruno will have that ability. Or now that we know that Alma doesn't have light-related powers and the candle is the source of the magic, maybe the hourglass doesn't correspond to someone's abilities either. Perhaps it simply foreshadows that there will be a race against time. That what was broken that's affecting Encanto's magic needs to be fixed by X number of days or hours.

D82 wrote:They must have kept him hidden from the marketing campaign so far for a reason. I have a feeling he might be the film's villain.

There's no way they'll make a biological family member the villain. They don't have the cojones do that. I think he will be integral in restoring the magic and will probably assist Mirabel in her quest in a significant way.

D82 wrote:It seems the yellow butterflies are also a manifestation of the magic of the candle. I still think it's possible, though, that they may have something to do with the grandfather since they first appeared after his death.

I think so too. They will probably function as a guide to Mirabel in her quest.

D82 wrote:What are Mirabel's grandparents and the other families running away from at the beginning? Is it war? It seems the film will have quite a dark prologue.

Probably. Perhaps a civil war or a coup of some kind. Maybe the place they used to live was overrun by gangs and corruption. I wonder if this is Disney's way to make a statement on refugees and immigration.

D82 wrote:I wonder what prevented Mirabel from getting her gift. At first, I thought that maybe the candle didn't give her any gift on purpose, because it knew the magic was going to be in danger in the future and in order to save it she had to have no gifts. But then, why was the house excited too for the ceremony? Although, maybe Casita is a creation independent from the candle and didn't know about the candle's plans? Could it also be possible that Mirabel did something wrong in her ceremony and that's why she didn't get her gift?

I believe Mirabel did in fact receive a gift. That's why she's able to see the cracks no one else can. Her gift was invisible because the circumstances that would activate it hadn't come to pass yet.

D82 wrote:The hidden valley where the Madrigals live reminds me of the hidden valley where Rapunzel's tower is, and the flame of the candle being the origin of the magic here is similar to the drop of sunlight in Tangled.

Yeah, the similarities are undeniable. Adding that to the sentient house that's similar to the ocean in Moana and all the similarities to Coco and everything feels a little too familiar for my taste.

Disney's Divinity wrote:They're always trying to jumpstart a new franchise, although it rarely happens. Frozen was lightning in the bottle. I suppose that's why they're making so many princess films, to use the DP franchise as the back-up if their films fail to become their own franchise.

That's true. Although we don't know what the studios' future slate holds. Searcher Clade is a male-led adventure film and I have feeling Carlos Lopez Estrada's project won't be a "princess" film either. We'll see.

D82 wrote:There's a love song in the film that Byron describes as "beautiful" and "poignant". He said Lin-Manuel Miranda tried to write a ballad that sounded like it had been around for a hundred years.

I'm assuming the love song will be for Alma and Pedro or for one of the other adult couples. I don't see them giving a romance subplot to any of the siblings or the cousins.

D82 wrote:The tree looks cool, but I'm not sure if I like that the bedrooms are like portals to other worlds. It reminds me a bit too much of Narnia or Shazam. Wasn't a living house magical enough?

I agree; it's overkill.

D82 wrote:That way they'd be able to give each character enough screen time and showcase the different environments of Colombia at the same time. Although, there's a risk the film could become too episodic. And what would the mission in each of these places be? I hope they don't have to collect the missing pieces of a broken gem.

That's a good theory. I can see Mirabel needing to find something in each world/bedroom with the help of the person who lives there. Maybe that's where Bruno comes in. Maybe she will need to track him down and bring him back to find something in his bedroom.

D82 wrote:I also wonder if Bruno could've gotten lost in his own bedroom. If his power is indeed to control time, maybe his world is like a time machine or something similar. Although, I still think it's likely he has left the house. As I once said, I think his room must be the turret because of the sundial and the hourglass symbols on the tiles. I've noticed there seemed to be a window in the turret that is now covered with bricks, and the walls have been covered with ivy. It looks abandoned to me, so maybe that means he's not there anymore.

I also thought he could have gotten lost in his bedroom or perhaps chose to live there alone permanently like a hermit, indicated by his disheveled appearance, but you make a good point that his bedroom window looks abandoned. If he has indeed left Casita and Encanto, the big question is why. What could have possibly been the reason to abandon his family and such an idyllic place like Encanto? Did he want to travel the world or make it out on his own?

Byron Howard wrote:"I think this is the first time that we've really tried to handle a large extended family," Howard added.

It's not. Meet the Robinsons did that first.

D82 wrote:I'm surprised there'll be two songs entirely in Spanish. I guess they'll probably be quite short, but I much prefer that to mixing Spanish and English in the same song, like in Coco.

I prefer that too, but I think there will be songs in Spanglish as well.

D82 wrote:In the preview of the Russian book I posted it said there was a portrait of Mirabel's grandfather Pedro near the stairs, so the man in the portrait behind Mirabel could be him.

The thing is, Pedro looks much older in the portrait compared to that family tree illustration. If he died young, then why is he portrayed in this way? Could he still be alive and growing older inside the portrait? Is he trapped in there? Is it possible his soul merged with or was transferred to the candle and that's why the magical house is so protective of the Madrigals?

D82 wrote:By the way, one interesting detail about the new family tree image is that Pedro, the grandfather, has a book under his arm. He's also shown with a book in his hand in the portrait from the artbook cover. I guess that means he liked reading or perhaps telling stories.

Maybe he was an author. His entire character seems like an allusion to Gabriel García Márquez.