DVDizzy Forum

Sotiris wrote: Agreed. She may be a likeable character but it was clear she was written as a response to previous princesses and particularly to Ariel.

It’s clear you have a different definition of “clear” than I do. The real difference between Ariel and Moana is that the narrative of Moana doesn't restrict the protagonist down to the point that her only way of having real agency is simultaneously tied to doing something "immoral" (the Faustian bargain), something she only escapes the consequences of by traditional sources of power (Triton / Eric). In other words, Moana features a narrative that doesn't automatically code female power as dangerous and reinforce male power as normal. That is a good thing.

So we now know that Disney is in a rush to perfect the Genie after the backlash. But here’s my question. Will all of this attention on the special effects, all the memes, and all the conversation this whole genie fiasco became hurt or help this movie at the box office?

On one hand, I can really see it hurting things. Turning people off. I’ve read many people saying they’ve written this movie off for good after the tv spot. However, if they fix the effects and really wow people with a new trailer sometime before release? I feel like it could mean big money for this movie. It’s been all over, so much publicity. So a big turn around in the VFX could bring it back around into the headlines again and guarantee a high box office return.

Disney's Divinity wrote:I'd say Ariel, Quasi, Jane Porter, and Mulan also had "clumsiness/awkwardness" as part of their character in the '90s besides just Hercules. Moreover, I don't think of any of Tiana, Elsa, Judy, Moana, or Vanellope as clumsy or awkward at all. Elsa is the only one whose flaw I would call an "insecurity," although it's mixed with grief/trauma. Some people just want to hate change for the sake of it, regardless of how they have to bend themselves into pretzels to pretend there's actually logic behind it.

I wouldn't call Ariel clumsy or awkward at all. The closest she comes to that is her adjusting to the human world, like when she first struggles to walk and stand up after she has her new legs or when she's with the snarfblat at dinner. However, she very quickly adjusts right after that. I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe Ariel that way.

Quasi is a similar case because his awkwardness really just comes out during his initial encounters with Esmeralda, because he's fallen for her. He's never like that around Phoebus for example. And in front of Frollo, he's just intimidated. Otherwise for someone sequestered away from society, Quasi isn't that awkward with other people and even his shyness isn't very apparent after the beginning of the film. He does fine when he's warning the Romani in the Court of Miracles or even in the Festival of Fools when he thinks the people have accepted him. Even in Topsy Turvy, the only reason he accidentally falls into Esmeralda's tent is because of Clopin, not his own actions.

I wouldn't call Jane clumsy and awkward as much as quirky. She was part of the new wave of heroines who were allowed to be comic relief. At most, she's out of place during her first scene in the jungle in her bustle dress, but for the rest of the film, she's quite at ease in her surroundings. Nothing about her speaks clumsiness or awkward though, although I imagine that English society likely found her to be odd (much like Belle, but she wouldn't be described as either of those terms either).

Mulan is really the only case in the 90s, besides Herc, to count as clumsy and awkward in her society.

I don't consider TPATF as part of the Revival, so I don't consider Tiana to be part of the Rapunzel clones. Elsa and Vanellope are not clumsy and awkward, but that's because they act as foils to the main characters of the film who already are: Anna and Ralph. In fact, they exaggerate this trait of Ralph's even more in the godforsaken sequel. Judy is not clumsy and awkward and that's probably why I find her the most successful of the new heroines from the Revival era. As for Moana, I think she has examples of being awkward at least. The opening scene where she's eating pork in front of Hei-Hei to say the least. She gets embarrassed and starts acting really weird before running off. It's very much something I would expect to see in a modern teen movie from the way she acts, or Rapunzel for example. That scene always felt awkward and out of place for me.

I'd argue that Anna, Vanellope, and Judy all suffer from some forms of insecurities. Anna has the insecurity of being alone and not having anyone to love her, hence her desperation to find romantic love since familial love has essentially abandoned her. Hans' whole plot is that he recognizes this and why she latches onto him so quickly. Vanellope we see is insecure with her glitch and the teasing from the other racers but by the end of the film, she becomes proud of it, hence why she keeps it. Judy at first is insecure about fitting into life at Zootopia and especially the police academy. She pushes herself harder because she knows that she represents all the other animals who won't be given a chance either if she fails and she's afraid of letting her family down.

No one said anything about "hating" change. There are several Revival films I quite love like the first Wreck-It Ralph (emphasis on first lol), Frozen, and Zootopia. Nor am I blinded by nostalgia for the 90s (and even earlier) because several Disney films that I used to love in my childhood are ones I have very little opinion of anymore. Peter Pan, Hercules, and Mulan all come to mind as films that haven't aged well for me personally and I'm quite critical of them now, despite my former fondness for them.

JeanGreyForever wrote: I wouldn't call Ariel clumsy or awkward at all. The closest she comes to that is her adjusting to the human world, like when she first struggles to walk and stand up after she has her new legs or when she's with the snarfblat at dinner. However, she very quickly adjusts right after that. I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe Ariel that way.

The whole beach scene of her "conversation" with Eric, then the dinner scene blowing up the pipe and brushing her hair with a fork, nearly killing Eric and her in the wagon, all her smiles to Eric where she's borderline cringing at the same time.

I've never thought about the criticism of a character being "clumsy/awkward" before this moment either, really. Seems like one of those hollow jabs thrown around like candy to the point it no longer has any meaning, sort of like the word Mary Sue. Suffice it to say we disagree on nearly every point here so writing a long post why would waste both our time. I'm not being snarky, btw.

Disney's Divinity wrote:The whole beach scene of her "conversation" with Eric, then the dinner scene blowing up the pipe and brushing her hair with a fork, nearly killing Eric and her in the wagon, all her smiles to Eric where she's borderline cringing at the same time.

I've never thought about the criticism of a character being "clumsy/awkward" before this moment either, really. Seems like one of those hollow jabs thrown around like candy to the point it no longer has any meaning, sort of like the word Mary Sue. Suffice it to say we disagree on nearly every point here so writing a long post why would waste both our time. I'm not being snarky, btw.

Do you really find Ariel in the beach scene awkward or clumsy? I've never gotten that vibe ever myself but it's interesting how other people interpret it. Stuff like the dinner scene and her driving the carriage shows her zeal imo and I don't find it awkward at all but maybe we have different interpretations of the word as well.

My issue isn't that a character can be clumsy or awkward, just that the Revival has a trend where most of the main characters have been like this. And I think clumsiness is a poor character attribute if that's really the only defining characteristic of a person.

Lol, it's funny how we disagree on every little point about this subject, but that's all right. Like I said, we just have very different perspectives on the matter. I don't think you're being snarky anyhow.

Disney fan swaps Will Smith for Robin Williams as Genie in upcoming live-action “Aladdin” film
https://insidethemagic.net/2019/02/alad ... -swap-ba1/

blackcauldron85 wrote:Disney fan swaps Will Smith for Robin Williams as Genie in upcoming live-action “Aladdin” film
https://insidethemagic.net/2019/02/alad ... -swap-ba1/

Not Robin's best shot...and yet already it is an improvement. What I miss most about Will Smith is the lack of chubby cheeks the animated film clearly depicts. Eric Goldberg's genie was clearly based of of Robin's face as much as it was an Al Hirschfeld spoof. Not to say Smith wont be entertaining to watch..I personally would have picked a young type of john Candy or John Goodman

Or you know, since its CG they could have easily put the cheeks into the design. Like, why does it have to be his literal face?

Honestly, if Disney had the rights to use those countless hours of Robin Williams outtakes, it's safe to say that they'd be using those for the Genie with full CGI rather than Will Smith. I think audiences would be far more interested in this remake then as well if it was considered a chance to experience Robin Williams again in all his glory.

Kyle wrote:Or you know, since its CG they could have easily put the cheeks into the design. Like, why does it have to be his literal face?

But he would have full cheeks in genie form and then not as his human form. This is supposed to be a new genie not a Robin Williams copy. Let Will Smith be a new character with "genie" smoke and beefy arms, not a Robin Williams copy.

I dunno, I guess I'm a little confused by the Disney fans I've been hanging around outside this place, who seem to dislike the 90s because fans of it dislike the classics or Frozen or whatever film the Confused Fan likes at the moment, but I remember one of their complaints which made no sense to me was "Leads in the 90s Disney films are a bunch of irresponsible selfish twats who shrunk away their responsibilities to go on selfish adventures! All of them! Nala is the only good Disney heroine since Aurora since she was responsible!"

And like...Maybe that fits only Ariel and Jasmine and maybe Pocahontas? Cause I really do not how Belle, Aladdin, Quasimodo, Hercules, Mulan or Tarzan were being selfish or running away from duties. Or what, Quasimodo should have assisted Frollo with his genocide?

And if they're talking about Simba...Dude, the kid just saw his dad die and his uncle manipulated him into thinking it was his fault. That's literally victim blaming a child right there.

thedisneyspirit wrote:I dunno, I guess I'm a little confused by the Disney fans I've been hanging around outside this place, who seem to dislike the 90s because fans of it dislike the classics or Frozen or whatever film the Confused Fan likes at the moment, but I remember one of their complaints which made no sense to me was "Leads in the 90s Disney films are a bunch of irresponsible selfish twats who shrunk away their responsibilities to go on selfish adventures! All of them! Nala is the only good Disney heroine since Aurora since she was responsible!"

And like...Maybe that fits only Ariel and Jasmine and maybe Pocahontas? Cause I really do not how Belle, Aladdin, Quasimodo, Hercules, Mulan or Tarzan were being selfish or running away from duties. Or what, Quasimodo should have assisted Frollo with his genocide?

And if they're talking about Simba...Dude, the kid just saw his dad die and his uncle manipulated him into thinking it was his fault. That's literally victim blaming a child right there.

Not that I hate him or anything, but Aladdin was a liar, he constantly lied to Jasmine even if he had many opportunities to tell the truth. Hoever that was exactly my point, seeing Aladdin overcome this and tell Jasmine at the end that he gotta stop pretending to be someone that he's not. That's a huge character growth that I like.

thedisneyspirit wrote:I dunno, I guess I'm a little confused by the Disney fans I've been hanging around outside this place, who seem to dislike the 90s because fans of it dislike the classics or Frozen or whatever film the Confused Fan likes at the moment, but I remember one of their complaints which made no sense to me was "Leads in the 90s Disney films are a bunch of irresponsible selfish twats who shrunk away their responsibilities to go on selfish adventures! All of them! Nala is the only good Disney heroine since Aurora since she was responsible!"

And like...Maybe that fits only Ariel and Jasmine and maybe Pocahontas? Cause I really do not how Belle, Aladdin, Quasimodo, Hercules, Mulan or Tarzan were being selfish or running away from duties. Or what, Quasimodo should have assisted Frollo with his genocide?

And if they're talking about Simba...Dude, the kid just saw his dad die and his uncle manipulated him into thinking it was his fault. That's literally victim blaming a child right there.

Pocahontas gets accused of being indecisive and basically letting John Smith die until she remembers her dream. Some people also blame her for Kocoum's death.

Belle gets accused of being an elitist snob and how most of the French peasants in her village would barely be making it by so of course they wouldn't have time to read and engage in literary conversation with her. They also blame her for breaking her promise to the Beast and running away, as well as entering the West Wing in the first place after she was specifically told not to.

Farerb talked about Aladdin although I've also heard some people say that he was selfish for putting himself in a position where he'd become the next sultan when he was completely unprepared for the role. And besides lying to Jasmine, people get ticked by him lying to the Genie as well and raising his hopes of being free.

I've never really heard Quasi be criticized, but I've heard plenty about Esmeralda. How she led Quasi on and then promptly breaks his heart by making out with Phoebus in front of him. Basically how Quasi is the victim in this all while Esmeralda is the "expletive" who dangled herself in front of him.

I've never really heard anyone talk about Herc or Mulan, the former because no one really talks about him (I do think he is the blandest of the Renaissance leads) and the latter because she's considered perfect and untouchable (which only adds to why I find her character and film overrated). However, at least with Mulan, I've heard Chinese audiences criticize her a lot. Beyond her general appearance, they have a huge issue with how westernized she is. They complain about the scene at the end when Mulan wonders if she really ran away to join the army just for her father's sake or if she actually did it for herself as well. Chinese audiences said that a real Chinese person would never have this dual purpose and would only have run away with the sole purpose to protect one's parent. They also felt that she displayed undesirable traits like cheating to meet the matchmaker, although Fa Li got equal criticism for learning about this but not more seriously admonishing Mulan.

Tarzan doesn't get talked much about either, so I don't have any personal experience on what is said about him, but I'm assuming the fact that he nearly leaves Africa might be an issue.

You're lucky, seems you haven't been around the Weird Disney Fans I've met. According to them Aurora is the most complex female character of all time, and we're just brutes who do not see the beauty and complexity of her character and preferring "selfish sluts" like Ariel, Belle or Esmeralda.

Also, I feel they don't really take into account Chinese and foreigners, and when they mean "responsible", it probably means in a very WASP-y way. As in "never raise your voice, never question authority and don't have impure thoughts otherwise you're going to hell, you whore", that type of fun stuff.

As for Aladdin, I mean...That's supposed to be his struggle throughout all the movie, right? That he lies and has to get over it? If he had no struggles or issues then he'd be another bland male lead who everything is handed to him in a silver platter, right?

I've read posts from Aurora fans who talk about how she's actually quite a dimensional character and super philosophical, which I think is reading too much into her short screentime, but not necessarily something that is incorrect. But I usually don't see them direct too much hate towards the later princesses. While some Tumblr users have become more appreciative of the classics, and there are some who prefer the classics overall, I don't usually see them direct such vitriol towards the later ones. In fact, Ariel and Belle are both super popular on Tumblr. Outside of Tumblr, Ariel does get quite a bit of hate, but she's still insanely popular otherwise. Esmeralda gets some hate, but I think a lot of that could be racial prejudice as well, not to mention the fact that since she is no longer a DP, she doesn't automatically get instant attention like the others.

Lol yeah, a lot of these haters only go by their own standards of principles and values. They won't consider how characters like Mulan would be perceived in their own native culture.

Not just Aladdin, but almost all these characters have struggles and issues they have to overcome. Perhaps they're spoiled from the Revival characters lol who are supposedly completely perfect.

Book covers. Jasmine will have her iconic hairstyle!


Source: https://www.amazon.com/Aladdin-Far-Agra ... 368031706/


Source: https://www.amazon.com/Disney-Aladdin-T ... 506712673/


Source: https://www.amazon.com/Aladdin-Action-N ... 368037119/


Source: https://www.amazon.com/Aladdin-Live-Act ... 368037070/


Source: https://www.amazon.es/Aladdin-Libro-col ... 41752973X/


Source: https://www.amazon.es/Disney-Aladdin-DR ... 912841703/


Source: https://www.amazon.com/Aladdin-Live-Act ... 368037062/


Source: https://www.amazon.es/Aladdin-libro-pel ... 417529713/


Source: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Disney-Aladdin ... 912841681/


Source: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Disney-Aladdin ... 405294264/


Source: https://www.amazon.com/Disney-Aladdin-2 ... 83854044X/


Source: https://www.amazon.fr/ALADDIN-FILM-Lhis ... 017087815/


Source: https://www.amazon.com/World-Reading-Al ... 368037127/


Source: https://www.amazon.com/Disney-Aladdin-D ... 794442323/

Sotiris wrote:Book covers. Jasmine will have her iconic hairstyle!

Is that news though? Because we've already seen her hairstyle before.
However now we can definitely see that Aladdin has a turban.

thedisneyspirit wrote:According to them Aurora is the most complex female character of all time....

OMG! I literally laughed out loud when I read that!

JeanGreyForever wrote:I've read posts from Aurora fans who talk about how she's actually quite a dimensional character and super philosophical, which I think is reading too much into her short screentime, but not necessarily something that is incorrect.

Really? Could you please tell me how exactly? She's my second favorite Disney Princess but it's just because she's so pretty and has that nice, very princessy demeanor to her. I never thought she had much depth or philosophical qualities!

Sotiris, that "Far From Agrabah" book cover is so pretty! Too bad the costumes only look good from far away! Probably the only good thing about Jasmine's costume is her hair, jewelry, pants, and the vales. I also like Aladdin's costume on that cover but it's only from the back....and I like the feather in his turbin.

Here are several links from fanpop about Aurora. A lot of them probably start to regurgitate the same information but I posted the main ones I found in case you're interested. The top one is about the classic princesses so you might find some interesting insight on Snow White and Cinderella as well.

http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/disney-prin ... perfection
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/disney-prin ... t-mary-sue
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/disney-prin ... ove-aurora
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/disney-prin ... ra-updated
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/disney-prin ... ra-college
https://www.fanpop.com/login?redirect_u ... aurora-1-3
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/disney-prin ... ves-aurora

I really like Aurora and I think one important thing people miss about her is that she gave up on being with someone she loved in order to do her duty as a princess.

I also feel like all these competitions of the princesses are very anachronistic. Why can't people celebrate the various female characters Disney gave us over the years without putting one against the other.