DVDizzy Forum

It's here at approximately 4:15:
https://youtu.be/FF0_JKyPCwE

^Thanks for the link! I had pretty much forgotten that entire deleted scene, but personally I don't think that moment was really needed. Triton also has a lot to apologize for and doesn't do it in the film either. But at the end they show they have a good relationship, so it's clear they've made amends even though it hasn't been shown to us.

D82 wrote: I don't think she knew she was putting the kingdom in danger. She probably thought she was just risking her own life.

This has always been my impression, too. In regards to Ursula seizing power at the end, at most you can blame Ariel for being really dumb... I think the best way you can interpret the character is that she was willing to sacrifice it all out of desperation to get away from Triton and live her own life. Ariel probably didn't expect Triton would sacrifice himself in her place regardless of whether Ursula tried to takeover the place or not. I don't really believe Ariel thought Ursula had become good... She's so clearly repulsed by Ursula all through "Poor Unfortunate Souls." It comes across more that she's willing to take the risk on her life / soul no matter the chances (which lines up with the lyrics from POYW (reprise)). She's between a rock (a gamble with a witch with slim chance of success) and a hard place (a life with Triton with zero chance of success).

Still, I can understand why people think Ariel should apologize at some level. She is a princess in this story. Her position holds power and unknowingly or not, she nearly put all her subjects within range of an out-of-control despot who clearly would have expected to be worshiped like a goddess and likely would've harmed (perhaps even eaten? ) wide swaths of the undersea kingdom. And lot of the musicals and live show song additions definitely go further in the implications that she will eat most of the non-mermaid species, even though they are sentient. "Not to mention by the way the huge seafood buffet. I love my subjects literally to bits..." Because the backstory is left in shadow, it allows the audience to draw their conclusions on what would have happened and how far her "revenge" would've extended. Her first scene implies she disdains all the merfolk, who she sees as being lower than herself as a cecaelian. Perhaps in her mind, this is like a predator v. prey mentality, and she should be ruling the "lesser" fishfolk.

It's made pretty clear throughout the film that people around the ocean know of her evil deeds and that Ariel knows about her reputation.

"The Sea witch ? I couldn't possibly".
"She's a demon, she's a monster".
I admit that in the past I've been a nasty
"They weren't kidding when they called me, well, a witch"

However, maybe she didn't know how much Ursula hated her father... But then again Ariel is pretty dumb because Ursula clearly shows throughout her song that she does change people into polyps and judging by how many of them she had in her garden, it's pretty clear that she tricks people.

D82 wrote:I had pretty much forgotten that entire deleted scene, but personally I don't think that moment was really needed. Triton also has a lot to apologize for and doesn't do it in the film either. But at the end they show they have a good relationship, so it's clear they've made amends even though it hasn't been shown to us.

Agreed. An apology is not only unnecessary, but too on the nose, in my opinion. The scene where they knowingly look at each other and hug is a much more nuanced way to express they've forgiven each other and it has a much stronger impact than any kind of apology would have. Not to mention, an apology scene would have messed with the flow and pacing of the ending.

Redadoodles wrote:While working, I had the film in the background and I just realized how many people wanted Ariel to apologize more for what she did... But why?

Sorry for nitpicking, but who are those people who wants an apology?

I always wish they kept in Ariel singing the second reprise of POYW, would have been beautiful to have it in the film. Or even the demo on a special edition soundtrack or something, I don’t believe it ever has been released ?

DisneyFan09 wrote:

Redadoodles wrote:While working, I had the film in the background and I just realized how many people wanted Ariel to apologize more for what she did... But why?

Sorry for nitpicking, but who are those people who wants an apology?

I read it so many times over the years but you can start with both the Nostaglia critic and Lindsay Ellis.

Disney's Divinity wrote:In regards to Ursula seizing power at the end, at most you can blame Ariel for being really dumb... I think the best way you can interpret the character is that she was willing to sacrifice it all out of desperation to get away from Triton and live her own life. Ariel probably didn't expect Triton would sacrifice himself in her place regardless of whether Ursula tried to takeover the place or not. I don't really believe Ariel thought Ursula had become good... She's so clearly repulsed by Ursula all through "Poor Unfortunate Souls." It comes across more that she's willing to take the risk on her life / soul no matter the chances (which lines up with the lyrics from POYW (reprise)). She's between a rock (a gamble with a witch with slim chance of success) and a hard place (a life with Triton with zero chance of success).

Exactly, that's my interpretation as well. Plus, I don't think she really thought about the consequences her decision would have in case she wasn't successful. After all, Ursula was pressuring her to take a decision as soon as possible, so she didn't have much time to think. And that's what sometimes happens in real life when parents are too controlling and don't let their children live their own life; they end up doing similar things. Like, for example, the women that marry very young with the first man they meet to be able to leave their home, which unfortunately many times doesn't end up well.

Disney's Divinity wrote:Still, I can understand why people think Ariel should apologize at some level. She is a princess in this story. Her position holds power and unknowingly or not, she nearly put all her subjects within range of an out-of-control despot who clearly would have expected to be worshiped like a goddess and likely would've harmed (perhaps even eaten? ) wide swaths of the undersea kingdom.

I don't say she shouldn't apologize, just that we don't really need to see her doing it.

Redadoodles wrote:However, maybe she didn't know how much Ursula hated her father

That's what I believe. She might've heard about her reputation, but didn't know she was after the throne and planned to use her as a bargaining chip. In my opinion, she believed she was just putting her own life at risk.

Sotiris wrote:An apology is not only unnecessary, but too on the nose, in my opinion. The scene where they knowingly look at each other and hug is a much more nuanced way to express they've forgiven each other and it has a much stronger impact than any kind of apology would have. Not to mention, an apology scene would have messed with the flow and pacing of the ending.

I completely agree with everything you said. Also, that scene was probably added to replace the cut apology, but if they had included both as I guess the people who want to see her apologize want, that final scene wouldn't have had the same impact it has now.

Redadoodles wrote:I read it so many times over the years but you can start with both the Nostaglia critic and Lindsay Ellis.

Well, to be fair, after having watched Nostalgia Critic review again, he does acknowledge that she apologizes. He just rants about how brief the scene is (sorry to nitpick). Lindsay Ellis, however, have ranted more about her apology. But to her credit, while she`s stated her opinion about Ariel, she haven`t constantly bashed her on every single video, as she`s done with other properties (cough, Pocahontas, cough).

DisneyFan09 wrote:

Redadoodles wrote:I read it so many times over the years but you can start with both the Nostaglia critic and Lindsay Ellis.

Well, to be fair, after having watched Nostalgia Critic review again, he does acknowledge that she apologizes. He just rants about how brief the scene is (sorry to nitpick). Lindsay Ellis, however, have ranted more about her apology. But to her credit, while she`s stated her opinion about Ariel, she haven`t constantly bashed her on every single video, as she`s done with other properties (cough, Pocahontas, cough).

Lindsay has said that her NC videos are bad and that most of them aren't even her own opinions. As of right now she took them down because Youtube always recommended these to people who view her channel. She only talked about Pocahontas once again and her criticism was more balanced and thoughtful than that video she did back then. It's alright that she doesn't like Pocahontas, not everyone has to, but sometimes I see a lot of "true Disney fans" (IDK how to describe it, similar to Star Wars) that think not liking TLM or Pocahontas is the most awful thing a person can do. Pocahontas wasn't even that liked back when it was released, critics didn't like the film back then and it is the lowest rated Renaissance film pretty much on every rating website.
Anyway, I don't remember Lindsay talking about Disney lately, her last video was on the remakes and it was more than a year ago.

I don't care about Doug Walker. His reviews always came across as superficial.

I don't really like either. Lindsay is eloquent and makes some good point but I never really clicked.

farerb wrote:Lindsay has said that her NC videos are bad and that most of them aren't even her own opinions. As of right now she took them down because Youtube always recommended these to people who view her channel.

Well, it doesn`t surprise me at all. As the years went by, she`s always claimed that she was somewhat dissatisfied with her NC videos. So it`s no wonder why she wants to distance herself from it. But I didn`t know that some of the opinions weren`t based on her own opinions.

She only talked about Pocahontas once again and her criticism was more balanced and thoughtful than that video she did back then. It's alright that she doesn't like Pocahontas, not everyone has to

True, but the problem with Lindsay is how she kept bashing Pocahontas constantly. Of course she`s completely allowed to dislike it and state her hate for it. But she kept repeating it through several of her videos. And it became burdensome and grating after a while.

but sometimes I see a lot of "true Disney fans" (IDK how to describe it, similar to Star Wars) that think not liking TLM or Pocahontas is the most awful thing a person can do. Pocahontas wasn't even that liked back when it was released, critics didn't like the film back then and it is the lowest rated Renaissance film pretty much on every rating website.

Really? I`m not trying to be condescending, but I`ve never seen it. Despite how the backlash against Pocahontas has settled down lately, since time has passed (and considering that it`s a part of a winning streak of movies that are still remembered today), I`ve never seen that it`s become a downright unpopular to dislike it. But perhaps I`m wrong.

Anyway, I don't remember Lindsay talking about Disney lately, her last video was on the remakes and it was more than a year ago.

Word.

I don't care about Doug Walker. His reviews always came across as superficial.

Agreed. Not only superficial, but he lacks substance and depth. Besides, some of his opinions are sometimes quite off.

DisneyFan09 wrote: Really? I`m not trying to be condescending, but I`ve never seen it. Despite how the backlash against Pocahontas has settled down lately, since time has passed (and considering that it`s a part of a winning streak of movies that are still remembered today), I`ve never seen that it`s become a downright unpopular to dislike it. But perhaps I`m wrong.

I was a kid back then so obviously I wasn't following critics and such, all I could do is reading it now and come to the conclusion, it's pretty much summarized in its wikipedia page - critics praised the visuals and music but felt the story was lacking and that the characters were uninteresting and overall a downgrade from Disney's previous films, and that's even without the way the Native Americans are portrayed, the implications that indigenous can be racist towards white men and the sexualization of Pocahontas.
I can tell you that as a kid I remember fellow kids being all about Disney's films - Mermaid, Aladdin, Lion King...but with Pocahontas there wasn't much excitement as I recall, I think it was very underwhelming, not that anyone hated it or anything, just indifferent. I even asked my sister (13 years older than me) and my brother (10 years older than me) and they pretty much felt the same. And I know the film was successful at the box office but I personally attribute it to the fact that after 4 really great films people were expecting Disney's next big event film.
I also think that the winning streak is debatable because a lot of people seem to differentiate between the fab four and the rest of the Renaissance, which was not as successful. Today it seems to me like Hercules and Mulan are very popular among nostalgic people, Hunchback as well but to a lesser extent while Pocahontas isn't very liked (but not hated) and Tarzan is mostly forgotten. However, maybe that's just how it seems to me and what I see around my environment - friends, family, colleagues or on other internet communities.

farerb wrote:I was a kid back then so obviously I wasn't following critics and such, all I could do is reading it now and come to the conclusion, it's pretty much summarized in its wikipedia page - critics praised the visuals and music but felt the story was lacking and that the characters were uninteresting and overall a downgrade from Disney's previous films, and that's even without the way the Native Americans are portrayed, the implications that indigenous can be racist towards white men and the sexualization of Pocahontas.
I can tell you that as a kid I remember fellow kids being all about Disney's films - Mermaid, Aladdin, Lion King...but with Pocahontas there wasn't much excitement as I recall, I think it was very underwhelming, not that anyone hated it or anything, just indifferent. I even asked my sister (13 years older than me) and my brother (10 years older than me) and they pretty much felt the same. And I know the film was successful at the box office but I personally attribute it to the fact that after 4 really great films people were expecting Disney's next big event film.
I also think that the winning streak is debatable because a lot of people seem to differentiate between the fab four and the rest of the Renaissance, which was not as successful. Today it seems to me like Hercules and Mulan are very popular among nostalgic people, Hunchback as well but to a lesser extent while Pocahontas isn't very liked (but not hated) and Tarzan is mostly forgotten. However, maybe that's just how it seems to me and what I see around my environment - friends, family, colleagues or on other internet communities.

I was a kid myself during Pocahontas`release, but I was getting at the age where I was (slightly) beginning to follow critics. So I`ve noticed how Pocahontas was given lackluster reviews (which I disagreed with at the time, since I was so mesmerized by it, nonetheless) and there was less momentum about it. So yeah, it`s true that both Pocahontas and Hunchback were declining the Renaissance. But they didn`t ended it. Sure, the four films who started the Renaissance got much more momentum. But Disney lovers and historians seems to label the whole decade between The Little Mermaid and Tarzan as part of the Renaissance. Which is after all fair. And while the last movies of the 90`s were given less credit, I still see a lot of love for them, regardless. Many people claim how Tarzan has been forgotten, but I still can see a lot of affection for it, nonetheless. But that`s just me.

I think the Renaissance ended with The Lion King.

I thought I would share one of my favorite versions of Part of Your World by French singer Natalie Fauran who voiced Melody in The Little Mermaid II. I hope you guys like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-3bNOHhkng

She sings beautifully and that video was really good.

Thank you.
I think Natalie gave us the best version of "For a moment" which, to me, is miles better than the original. The reason might be because I can always tell that Tara Strong is pretending to be a kid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjAB43RMSQ

I don't really want to remember TLM 2 very much, lol, but from what I can remember, I'd say Natalie blew her out of the water! By the way, I loved TLM 2 as a kid, and I have a fondness for it, it's just I also realize how bad it is now. The animation is awful!