DVDizzy Forum

Kudos to you for dealing with the beyond the pale character attacks with aplomb, Sotiris. At least I can block the toxicity, mods don't get that option.

Disney's Divinity wrote:Kudos to you for dealing with the beyond the pale character attacks with aplomb, Sotiris. At least I can block the toxicity, mods don't get that option.

Thanks. I didn't want to escalate this but she kept calling me bigoted so I felt I had to defend myself. I'm actually not good with confrontation as it triggers my anxiety so I usually try to avoid it. From now on, I'll simply stop engaging with her on topics like these. It's not worth the waste of time and all the unpleasantness.

Sotiris wrote:

JeanGreyForever wrote:You may think that but actual Chinese people and Asian Americans beg to differ. It's very presumptuous of you to claim that because you felt it was authentically Chinese enough, that should be good enough for the rest of the world.

You're the one who's being presumptuous. A handful of people from the articles you posted don't equate the majority. You always try to present your opinion as fact by using anecdotal evidence. I can do that too you know. Like pointing out how Mushu trended on Chinese social media because people were upset he isn't included in the film. That fact is neither of us know how the majority of Chinese people feel about the animated Mulan because there aren't any concrete evidence about stuff like this like statistics or polls or whatnot. At least, I don't pretend that I do.

JeanGreyForever wrote:I didn't see anyone complain that Cinderella lost all its songs, relegated to end-credits only, or that Alice in Wonderland or Maleficent got rid of the classic songs too.

I actually do have a problem with that, especially with Cinderella which was a straightforward adaptation and not a reimagining.

JeanGreyForever wrote:Whether she was real or not is not something for you to dictate though because she is real in the hearts and minds of Chinese audiences.

I'm not the one who's dictating it, it's historians. You're the one who claimed that because she's supposedly a real-life person means the remake should be X or Y. You can't even remain consistent to your own argument.

JeanGreyForever wrote:The only one trying to rationalize anything here is frankly you with your own bigoted views which I'm ashamed to recognize now because I quite looked up to you as a senior member of this forum. However, I can't help but notice that you've been very "concerned" with some of the new remakes these days, mainly Mulan and The Little Mermaid. Interesting what they both have in common compared to some of the other remakes which you haven't been as critical about.

You've conveniently left out my criticism of Cruella because you can't use that against me since she's white. Or the fact I like the Lady and the Tramp remake despite the race-bending. You love to throw accusations of racism or sexism whenever it suits you as a way to de-legitimatize other people's opinions. You immediately jump to character assassination. People don't like changes to a beloved animated film but I do? Oh, they must be bigots! Ignoring that most of the time you yourself take issue with changes in the remakes. You've torn apart Beauty and the Beast, dissecting and over-scrutinizing every little change but criticizing the radical changes to Mulan is not acceptable because you say so. The fact you don't realize how hypocritical that is, is beyond me. It's clear you have trouble accepting other people's views even when it comes to trivial matters like movies because you regard your opinion as "truth" and "fact". You need to keep your superiority complex in check and stop attacking people for disagreeing with you.

I'm pointing out a burgeoning reanalysis of Mulan from Asian Americans who grew up with the film in the US but certain people tend to want to ignore that all for the sake of childhood nostalgia (and how many of you were even children when Mulan came out, that's the real question?) That's not even including China's reception of the original film, regarding it as poor and unimpressive. Mushu may have trended on social media but as pointed out in TLM live-action thread, just because a hashtag trends, doesn't mean all the comments and retweets are united in the message. When that hashtag decrying Ariel's race was trending on Twitter, more than half those tweets were really trashtalking the racists and bigots. Trying to gaslight me with these poorly constructed arguments is just your attempt to ignore the real issue at hand here and that's a real shame, because I always thought better of you than that.

Yet, I didn't remember anyone raising a stink in the Cinderella thread about the songs being removed whereas almost every other post in this thread is about Mulan's songs or some other change. I do wonder why one film gets singled out more than another for the same issue.

Historians have not been able to prove or disprove that she existed and that's likely western historians anyway. Even if she didn't exist, legends have placed her in specific time periods and dynasties of China so the adaptations ought to remain true to one of those stories that actual Chinese people grew up with (rather than a whitewashed animated film) otherwise this would be like creating a film on Johnny Appleseed or Sam Houston and placing him in 21st century America. That's how disparate the animated film was with Chinese people pointing out that regional differences were so conflated that it would be like making a film in the Civil War but portraying the north as having cotton fields instead of the south. Or including medieval knights in a Victorian setting with all the characters having cell phones because Disney basically took whatever elements they found distinctly Chinese from all of history and mashed it all up together in the animated film.

The difference is that the Cruella thread hasn't gone on and on the way the Mulan and Little Mermaid threads have. There was never massive uproar in the Cruella thread by various posters the way that occurred in both Mulan and Mermaid's threads. And I'm willing to bet that had Cruella been black (like in Disney's Descendants), people would have lost it and shut down the remake way before. My issues with BATB were never race issues but the fact that for a film that strived so hard to be like the original, they still felt the need to "update" and "improve" when there was little to nothing that needed to be improved. The "plot holes" were really just things that only a handful of fans noted whereas general audiences wouldn't even think about them. And there were plenty of elements I have praised the live-action BATB for such as Luke Evans, Josh Gad, Audra McDonald, the Gaston song, the finale reprise, the opening aria, the enchanted objects briefly "dying," etc. I own the film on Blu-Ray and merchandise for it as well so I clearly can't hate it as much as you claim even if I'm not as fond of it now as I used to be.

Even the Maleficent sequel, which I have not been a fan of, I've conceded that there are elements I've liked such as Pfeiffer's role and the production design of the new castle. I haven't heard any of the haters here say anything even remotely positive anything about the Mulan remake so far and as other posters have said, the constant negativity and griping gets really tiresome. There's one post with news followed by two whole pages of complaints.

If I supposedly have a superiority complex you should really consider that maybe you just have an inferiority complex and that's the real root of the issue here because I've said nothing of the sort except that I've lost a lot of respect for you to see you stand up and defend the bigots. And please let your friend know how hypocritical it is to discuss other users openly despite having blocked them so that one can't even confront said user oneself. Stick to private messaging to trash talk other users behind their backs like everyone else does.

JeanGreyForever wrote:Trying to gaslight me with these poorly constructed arguments is just your attempt to ignore the real issue at hand here and that's a real shame, because I always thought better of you than that.

The real issue at hand is that you can't accept that people who don't like the changes may feel that way because of their love for the original and not because of some sinister racists sentiments. This has happened with almost every remake. It's not that deep. I don't get how this idea got stuck in your head, but it's not my fault you equate criticism of the unfaithfulness of the remake to bigotry.

JeanGreyForever wrote:Yet, I didn't remember anyone raising a stink in the Cinderella thread about the songs being removed whereas almost every other post in this thread is about Mulan's songs or some other change. I do wonder why one film gets singled out more than another for the same issue.

I assume it's because Mulan and its songs are more beloved that Cinderella's. I can only speak for myself, but that's why the Mulan songs being eliminated bothers me more than Cinderella's songs being absent.

JeanGreyForever wrote:The difference is that the Cruella thread hasn't gone on and on the way the Mulan and Little Mermaid threads have. There was never massive uproar in the Cruella thread by various posters the way that occurred in both Mulan and Mermaid's threads.

That's probably because 101 Dalamtians already had a live-action remake and/or people don't care that much about the property. Does that seem so farfetched to you? Do you honestly believe people love 101 Dalamtians as much as Mulan or TLM?

JeanGreyForever wrote:My issues with BATB were never race issues...

And neither are my issues with Mulan.

JeanGreyForever wrote:I haven't heard any of the haters here say anything even remotely positive anything about the Mulan remake so far and as other posters have said, the constant negativity and griping gets really tiresome. There's one post with news followed by two whole pages of complaints.

So it's exactly like the Beauty and the Beast thread? 'Cause that's how I remember it. Constant complaining and endless repetition of the same criticisms. The difference is I never tried to silence the critics like what you're trying to do here.

JeanGreyForever wrote:If I've lost a lot of respect for you to see you stand up and defend the bigots.

What? Sigh. I give up. There's no getting through to you. It's clear you've already made up your mind. Let's just move on then.

Sotiris wrote:

JeanGreyForever wrote:Trying to gaslight me with these poorly constructed arguments is just your attempt to ignore the real issue at hand here and that's a real shame, because I always thought better of you than that.

The real issue at hand is that you can't accept that people who don't like the changes may feel that way because of their love for the original and not because of some sinister racists sentiments. This has happened with almost every remake. It's not that deep. I don't get how this idea got stuck in your head, but it's not my fault you equate criticism of the unfaithfulness of the remake to bigotry.

JeanGreyForever wrote:Yet, I didn't remember anyone raising a stink in the Cinderella thread about the songs being removed whereas almost every other post in this thread is about Mulan's songs or some other change. I do wonder why one film gets singled out more than another for the same issue.

I assume it's because Mulan and its songs are more beloved that Cinderella's. I can only speak for myself, but that's why the Mulan songs being eliminated bothers me more than Cinderella's songs being absent.

JeanGreyForever wrote:The difference is that the Cruella thread hasn't gone on and on the way the Mulan and Little Mermaid threads have. There was never massive uproar in the Cruella thread by various posters the way that occurred in both Mulan and Mermaid's threads.

That's probably because 101 Dalamtians already had a live-action remake and/or people don't care that much about the property. Does that seem so farfetched to you? Do you honestly believe people love 101 Dalamtians as much as Mulan or TLM?

JeanGreyForever wrote:My issues with BATB were never race issues...

And neither are my issues with Mulan.

JeanGreyForever wrote:I haven't heard any of the haters here say anything even remotely positive anything about the Mulan remake so far and as other posters have said, the constant negativity and griping gets really tiresome. There's one post with news followed by two whole pages of complaints.

So it's exactly like the Beauty and the Beast thread? 'Cause that's how I remember it. Constant complaining and endless repetition of the same criticisms. The difference is I never tried to silence the critics like what you're trying to do here.

JeanGreyForever wrote:If I've lost a lot of respect for you to see you stand up and defend the bigots.

What? Sigh. I give up. There's no getting through to you. It's clear you've already made up your mind. Let's just move on then.

I can perfectly well understand that people might not like changes in the film because it doesn't align with what they knew as children. I have no issue with that. What I do have issues with is the casual racism that many posters spouted in both this thread and in TLM thread. And it wasn't just me but other posters as well who noticed how ignorant some of the responses came across as.

That I don't believe at all. A Dream is a Wish Your Heart Makes is a Disney anthem, probably second to When You Wish Upon a Star. So This is Love is one of the most popular Disney love songs and Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Boo is outright one of the most iconic Disney songs like Heigh-Ho. Even the Cinderella Work Song is referenced so many times in pop culture with the mice. Cinderella easily has one of the most iconic Walt Disney soundtracks of all time, like Snow White, Pinocchio, Mary Poppins, The Jungle Book, etc.

Well 101 Dalmatians is the second highest grossing Disney animated film of all time just after Snow White. And Cruella is one of the most iconic characters (not even villains) to ever exist. She's one of the only Disney villains besides the Evil Queen to rank on the greatest villains list and her image was used in the UK Olympics ceremony alongside Captain Hook, the Queen of Hearts, and Lord Voldemort. I'm not saying it's necessarily more popular than TLM at least, but let's not underestimate the film's esteem. Even if it's one of the lower-selling Diamond/Signature Editions these days, it still gets a huge boost from being part of that line, unlike the non-Platinum/Diamond/Signature editions such as Mulan. One poster here analyzed the home video rankings on Blu-Ray and really just Alice and Dumbo were on the same level despite not being part of the line.

I'm going to take your word for it here but I do hope that all of us can open our minds even just slightly before we see the finished product. Some of the changes might work and others may not, but we won't know until we see the final film.

Really, because I don't remember the BATB thread ever being this conflicted. The main issue was Emma Watson's dress which is pretty much universally hated and that deserved all the flack it got. Some people had issues with the CGI of the Beast and the objects although I never personally had an issue there myself. Although after seeing the mockup of the Beast if he had been done practically, I have to agree that it looked way better than the final product as a pure-CGI creation.

I know it may not seem like it after this exchange but I generally tend to like you a lot and I have a lot of respect for you as a senior member of this forum so let's just dismiss this incident as an off-day and agree to move on as you said. I don't want it to color our future exchanges.

JeanGreyForever wrote:A Dream is a Wish Your Heart Makes is a Disney anthem, probably second to When You Wish Upon a Star. So This is Love is one of the most popular Disney love songs and Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Boo is outright one of the most iconic Disney songs like Heigh-Ho. Even the Cinderella Work Song is referenced so many times in pop culture with the mice. Cinderella easily has one of the most iconic Walt Disney soundtracks of all time, like Snow White, Pinocchio, Mary Poppins, The Jungle Book, etc.

I agree with you about the Cinderella soundtrack. I love it too. It's actually my favorite Walt-era soundtrack. But I think we're a minority when it comes to this. I believe not even Duster likes the soundtrack much. Maybe that's why people didn't care the songs got axed. It definitely bothered me and lessened my enjoyment of the film. I think I'm more critical of Mulan because of my emotional attachment to the film. I prefer the Broadway-styled musical structure and I absolutely love Reflection. I think it's a shame they're not making the remake a musical when they could have used this as an opportunity to expand on it by adding cut songs and writing new ones, especially since the original was a little light on songs and didn't quite reach its full potential as a musical.

JeanGreyForever wrote:I know it may not seem like it after this exchange but I generally tend to like you a lot and I have a lot of respect for you as a senior member of this forum so let's just dismiss this incident as an off-day and agree to move on as you said. I don't want it to color our future exchanges.

Agreed.

Sotiris wrote:

JeanGreyForever wrote:A Dream is a Wish Your Heart Makes is a Disney anthem, probably second to When You Wish Upon a Star. So This is Love is one of the most popular Disney love songs and Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Boo is outright one of the most iconic Disney songs like Heigh-Ho. Even the Cinderella Work Song is referenced so many times in pop culture with the mice. Cinderella easily has one of the most iconic Walt Disney soundtracks of all time, like Snow White, Pinocchio, Mary Poppins, The Jungle Book, etc.

I agree with you about the Cinderella soundtrack. I love it too. It's actually my favorite Walt-era soundtrack. But I think we're a minority when it comes to this. I believe not even Duster likes the soundtrack much. Maybe that's why people didn't care the songs got axed. It definitely bothered me and lessened my enjoyment of the film. I think I'm more critical of Mulan because of my emotional attachment to the film. I prefer the Broadway-styled musical structure and I absolutely love Reflection. I think it's a shame they're not making the remake a musical when they could have used this as an opportunity to expand on it by adding cut songs and writing new ones, especially since the original was a little light on songs and didn't quite reach its full potential as a musical.

I don't think the Cinderella soundtrack is unpopular, it just tends to get forgotten (like most Walt Disney era soundtracks) compared to all the Renaissance and Revival soundtracks. Someone posted a list of the top Disney songs from Spotify a while back and there was pretty much nothing from the Walt-era. I think the oldest song was from Robin Hood and everything else was from the Renaissance or Revival, plus the live-action remakes. I personally didn't feel like there was a need for the live-action Cinderella to have any songs and relegating them to the end credits was absolutely fine for me. I'm fine with that approach for Mulan as well. The only song I really love from it is Reflection which would be perfect for the end credits but I wouldn't mind if it made its way into the film. I also love the deleted song Written in Stone (really wish we could have heard the rest of Stephen Schwartz's songs for the film) but there's no way that's making it in sadly.

Are musicals popular in China btw? I don't think I've ever seen a Chinese musical.

Cinderella was one of the first remakes. The only other one before that was Alice in Wonderland, wasn't it? And Alice hadn't been anything like the animated film, so nobody really expected that before TJB came along and borrowed several songs and Mowgli's design, and then B&tB and Aladdin and TLK borrowed to the extreme. I personally have never liked Cinderella's soundtrack. Mulan's is the weakest of the Renaissance, but it's still good and more that that I do have a fondness of it. For me, all the character cuts (Mushu, the grandmother, Shang, the soldiers) is still the biggest offender. The songs being cut is just more to add to the pile of reasons to criticize it. The fact that the film finds itself in the crosshairs of controversy over Disney's capitulations to an evil regime is the cherry on top.

Japanese poster and soundtrack.


Source: https://twitter.com/disneystudiojp/stat ... 6483102721


Source: https://lnk.to/Mulan_OST

It's not bad. I think I prefer it to the domestic poster.

It's super awesome!

Close-up of the phoenix. I didn't expect it to be so colorful.


Source: https://twitter.com/disneystudiojp/stat ... 6483102721

Yes, it's a pretty poster. But so was that other one. The visuals aren't the problem.

At first it was skeptical but the more times I Watch the more i feel like this might be a really good movie.

I wish James Hong , Michelle Yeoh, and Jackie Chan had somehow gotten roles in this movi, Would have been nice.

Also Chow Yun Fat i think would be better as the Villain than Jason Scott Lee. But Maybe Scott Lee will surprise me.

Fun fact: This movie was announced wayyy back in 2010 with Zhang Ziyi as The title character and Chuck Russell as the director.

Theatrical poster. The theatrical trailer debuts tomorrow.


Source: https://twitter.com/DisneysMulan/status ... 5923864576

The posters are pretty but I don't like that in every single piece of promotional material Mulan is depicted as a warrior. That's not all she was. I understand they want to make her look strong and badass but Mulan joined the army to save her family and to prove she was more that what society told her she was. I'd hate for her to be reduced to a militaristic, war-loving person.

This still has also been released today by Disney China. Could the hand on the right be the witch's hand?


Source: https://twitter.com/jfwong/status/1202265678566191104

I like the poster. I wonder how much of the film will feature her fighting openly as a woman.