DVDizzy Forum

@ Disney's Divinity:

Thanks so much for your post. You said exactly what I wanted to say, but probably did it much better. What's interesting to me, is that most religious people don't want to know about the history of the Bible. When I was still in university, I followed a course called "Who's who in the Bible", which was about both the content of the Bible and its history. We learned a lot about the way the Bible was created and put together. But nobody there was religious. The religious people I knew wouldn't want to follow that course.

I think it's because that book is holy to them. They've invested all their belief in a book, and if facts and history would cause them to doubt it, their whole worldview might collapse.

You bring up a good point about distortion through translation. Many people are not aware of the importance of translation. A message can severly alter through translation. Have you ever played that game where you would have a whole line of people sitting next to each other, then the first would whisper something in the next person's ear, and everybody would have to pass on the message, and you would wind up with an entire different message at the end of the line? That's translation in a nutshell. (For example, the fact that we refer to Mary Magdalene as a prostitute comes from an error in translation; Mary was just a female companion to Jesus, some say his wife --que the Da Vinci Code!)

Anyway, your remarks about Paul (Saulus) never having met Jesus and still be considered an authority, and your remarks about destortion through translations made me think of a scene from Life of Brian. Many people consider it to be 'just a comedy', but if you've studied the origins of christianity, you will see it's a clever and quite accurate satire with a whole lot of truth in it. This particular scene made me think of Lenin's speech, from a balcony, to a huge mass of workers, who all cheered and clapped at what he said. Afterward, it turned out nobody heared a word he said.

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Lazario wrote: When you follow "The Good Book”… other people can't stand you anymore.

Thanks for the compliment honey. You promise?
Mathew ch 5 v 11-12. “Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, & persecute you, & shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, & be exceedingly glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you”.

Nice try. Also see last posts about ‘for his name sake’. You are allowed to give up; you do know that, don’t you?

By the way, this question, the one you keep on about.

Lazario wrote:And after all these years of talking about religion, people quoting the Bible... no one has answered my #1 question: how do we know what's written in the book really happened? How can we trust the word of these alleged witnesses?

Well I gave Black pearl these links
http://elshaddaiministries.us/storefront/dvd.html
http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahsark.htm
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/DVD-RGT.htm

You have not criticized them yet, what’s wrong, your not going to tell me you accept the proof, …are you?

Goliath wrote:Especially when... what?

The quote directly beneath

@ Disney divinity
Too busy just now will get back to you.

Goliath, I finally looked it up and the closest thing to controlling the Pharaoh in Exodus was God "hardening is heart". Hm, like that couldn't be taken many different ways. For one, I found a site explaining mistranslation and saying it may have meant God allowed the full expression of the Pharaoh's already bad heart to come through. To me, it could mean that God did certain acts, which the Pharaoh hardened his heart to. And another is that God did control one person's will, because he can, and it doesn't really matter what reason, but one reason that God is reported as saying is to show his power, his control.

If God did it once, that doesn't mean he did it everytime, especially considering to say he did it once means he didn't do it all the time to call it out. It is esentially saying the Pharaoh had his own will (heart) that God controlled for a hot second did things to him to make him reveal his cruest, evilest will deep inside his heart.

That is yet another reason I do not believe in everything the Bible says, as there may be mistranslation.

If you mean God created sin as in God created everything, then yes. But to explain further, it was probably like God created good, and evil is the absense of/turning away from good, so by giving us God-like free wills, we and the Devil actually created sin by choosing sin after he created us. I don't know if it's correct to say you can create an absense.

Drowning is not obliterating. Obliterating is erasing something from existence. He put the Devil in Hell where he can't harm anyone in Heaven, what more do you want? People are not obliterated. Their bodies are but not their forever lasting spirits.

The Devil is only responsible for people sinning by tempting them. The Devil being "created" by the church to explain other natural bad things like natural disasters does not make sense because the religions do not teach that he has control over those, it is still only God. Your theory on why the Devil was created is proven wrong yet again.

I believe in God because I want to and I really do believe there is a loving thing that made *all of this* but if you mean I believe in God out of fear of there being no God and thus there being nothing and us being empty or alone, perhaps you could say that being another good reason in a differently worded way.

If you don't want God or his love that is when you are sent to Hell where there is no love or God. That's what Hell is.

Super Aurora wrote:Most of stuff there’s not much to argue back on so I can leave it at that. But there’s a few things I just want to point out on for you.

Disney Duster wrote:Seeing movies where evil happens is fine, seeing movies where evil (what the Bible says is evil) is treated as right and good would be bad.

Then you might not like my sci-fi series then.....

Aw, no, I would read it because I personally think seeing those movies is okay. It's about what I believe, not whatever anyone else says I should believe.

I agree on your plane/dimension thing.

Thanks for all the info on the 7 Heavens (oh jeeze, reminds me of that show...). That was pretty cool but I didn't get a lot of it, like two homes for God, well, which one does he live in? Ah, well, maybe someday I'll find out, online...or actually there!

I think Black Pearl did a fair job of making the Bible quotes fit with what we were talking about and explaining how.

Goliath again...you should have noticed I said he seemed evil. Pay attention to words. And that no matter my views, he made hateful, negative speech, even about life being worth living or worth anything.

About people saying if you do not believe in God, you don't believe in anything, we mean not believing in anything that you can't see in front of you, that is physical, you know, not believing in stuff you actually have to believe in (and feel). You can believe in people but still think people are empty not full of spirit or soul and life isn't sacred so essentially people and life are nothing so you believe in nothing.

I might agree that the men who wrote the Bible wrote it in their own words, but it was still, as we believe, God's divine inspiration to them, and also recording what they heard God and Jesus had said. No, it's not perfect in one sense of the word. It is perfect in the sense God's word is in there somewhere.

I never said of the Bible "It's all true" but then "these parts aren't". I never ever said that, you would have to show me. I mean maybe it is all true, but...

I already told you that I have to try and find God's word with my heart and brain and what makes sense to me otherwise I might be in Hell on Earth following what he said or want to kill myself, and that is whu I do not believe in everything the Bible says because I can't or I may not even be here to do it. You know, countless suicides over being gay all those other kids did. And yes, I believe in something I can understand some of, not all of.

If you want to talk about ignoring, that is what you are doing a lot of, either ignoring or simply missing or not paying careful attention to a lot of what I am saying that explains away and proves against many things you have brought up. If you are ignoring it, the word ignorant for you on this topic then comes to my mind, and if it's the latter, well, that's unfortunate.

And yes the environment kind of in a way shapes you, but your soul still picks and chooses what it likes out of all that it finds around it. It is a subconscious thing that is hard for people to realize and you may then be one of them. Also, things like you described are not "me" or any person in the sense I was talking about.

I think you're smart and don't think you're evil or anything though, Goliath.

And I think you're smart and don't think your evil or anything Lazario.

You two got what I was saying quite wrong...as often happens...

I actually like to believe that I'll probably end up seeing you in...well...a good place in the afterlife. Oh, and Super Aurora too and lots of other people but you were the two concerned. Oh and you are smart too Super Aurora.

I am not going to even bother reading the rest of the pages that do not concern me in here! Holy Moly!

Oh, except on ething I caught: Divinity, I think the Bible is supposed to be God's word somewhere in there, so it is God...somewhere in there. Because God wouldn't let it all get screwed up. We have to use our hearts and sense to find the true word, like the one golden rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do to you."

Goliath wrote:your saying nobody is perfect enough to understand the bible

Damned if we are perfect damned if we are not, which we are not. I also said nobody is perfect, I also told you, you are born into the kingdom like a new born baby and grow. So do babies make mistakes? You keep getting the same answers over & over ‘cos you keep asking the same stuff in disguise.

Goliath wrote:they went to somebody else’s land

Propaganda easily dismissed, but it doesn’t’t bother me to agree to disagree.

Goliath wrote:

waltmad wrote:So lets all stick to facts eh.

In a discussion about religion?

Okay & you stick to your stories

Goliath wrote:

waltmad wrote: show me where

everywhere

Great answer, that explained it to me so I can explain your confusion, and what attack? When I am just pointing out facts? Also I told you to shut up, where, using the f word?

Goliath wrote:Thank you for admitting that you are not able to give any original answer; not able to produce one idea or thought that is your own

Romans ch 7 v 25 “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I MYSELF serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” What is wrong with obeying my heavenly Father anyway? He knows what is best for all of his children.

Goliath wrote:that saves me the trouble of having to argue with you anymore

But you didn’t have to argue with me dumpling. Don’t forget I have it in writing now that you won’t.
Promise? Please say you do. I said bye to you, because of your f-ing on this site, you then repeat it in huge letters, then think you baited me back with lots more questions, I answer them (for the benefit of others, thanks for the platform) unlike you who answers very little, then you make it look like your dumping me. Oh goodie I can put the flags out and scroll past your posts from now on then.

Goliath wrote: Okay, *one* more point,

Just can’t let go can you?

Goliath wrote: God did not ‘author’ the Bible.

God wrote the torah (in the bible) on mount Sinai with Moses, which has now been recognized with it’s burnt top (where God’s glory rested when he wrote the 10 commandments etc) People such as eyewitnesses, wrote the rest, through the Holy Spirit, which is God. (Link about the proof on Sinai, discovering Noah’s ark, finding Sodom & Gomorrah etc, is in previous posts to B.P. & laz. But just in case people can’t find it, http://www.arkdiscovery.com/DVD-RGT.htm, http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahsark.htm (and while your at it http://elshaddaiministries.us/storefront/dvd.html about proof (with some from nasa of when the 2nd coming is, too, but I digress,)

If you don’t know God, how do you know it “is a historical fact that “the bible was not authored by God? He says it is.

As you keep explaining to me how a discussion works, then why do you now state it saves you the trouble of arguing (was that a slipped up confession?) with me anymore, and while we are at it, all you do is tell me where I am wrong. I give my beliefs that you incessantly keep asking for, to try & set me up (never had that before ) then you say that is what I am doing. Why ask questions to answers you know you won’t like, other than to argue. When I ask you questions, you very rarely actually answer me, yet have another fully loaded bunch of questions waiting for me. Still, now you are dumping me, I don’t need to worry about you using me anymore, and you didn’t’t even buy me dinner first.
But seriously, you have not been my problem for a while now. God will deal with you, me and everybody accordingly. That my friend is your problem not mine. He has tried to talk to you through me. Perhaps he may turn to more extreme measures as he so often does. If he does, remember it’s done because he loves you, and he is worried about your eternal life, more than your temporary one. I would myself worry more when he stopped. That is when he says, enough, & takes his hand away, if you are still kicking & fighting him. Should he get through to you, a quick life lesson with him is, no 1 faith (Trust) & no 2 obedience. Knowing that, for anyone, can save you a lot of unnecessary pain, rather than being taught it. Of course I have been wrong, you say, about everything, so no worries there then. You can save your worrying for the oxygen depletion in the sea (I think that was you worrying, it had swearing in it, so it probably was) or anything else that you do believe in.

I bare no animosity toward you, the Bible says “we are not fighting flesh & blood, but powers & principalities of the air,” which means I am fighting the evil influences that try to get us to do wrong, not people.
Bye.

@ Disneyboy
Thanks for your answer. I would love to ask your pastor one question. Would you have a problem passing it on and giving back the answer? I won’t post the question till you say your okay with that.

Super Aurora wrote: some of them slightly contradict each other.

I have worked in law, in a court of law different witnesses with slightly different versions strengthen the case, it shows no coercion. This is a good thing in the bible then. Thanks, yet another point you helped me make, keep it up pal.

Super Aurora wrote: they were small listed, simple, and to the point.

Yes, but the rest of the bible is packed with information, clues, history, genealogy so we can work out dates etc. Which gives us guidance when the Holy Spirit reveals more than you will ever know. Before you ask what, you have to be ‘a member of the club’ why would he reveal his special treasures to those who don’t love him.

@ Disney’s Divinity
No offence taken, you are completely free to your opinion. You are not forcing your beliefs on me, nor I on you. We are expressing them, right?

Disney’s Divinity wrote: Paul was a man who never meet Jesus

Sorry, I believe you are being genuine, but that’s not what the Bible says, read it again, Acts ch 9 v 3-5 “and as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the Earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. He had a discussion with him, & one heck of an experience. Later he had many with the Holy Spirit, who is part of God & Jesus. (Previous post)

I keep saying the answers are in the bible, so this is why Goliath wants me to stop using it. As for the rest of your post, Goliath keeps explaining how I say my piece, then tell everyone to shut up. You say your piece, and then say, you “don’t say this to start a debate“. Well I am not compulsed to do so; therefore I won’t answer the rest. But does Goliath use a flamethrower on you, for saying your piece, then not wanting a debate? No he says, “Thanks so much for your post. You said exactly what I wanted to say”. Funny that.
But I don’t want to draw you into our little tiffs so please don’t answer that one.

If any one else has questions, kindly put them in a form of one. Or ask B.P. I will try to answer them, & in a form of an answer as opposed to a debate, if you don‘t mind, as this is extremely time consuming.
Just to be clear, there is no need for me to answer laz or goliath any further. This is my free will, not theirs, & I am acting on it how I choose to, with my own mind, but also with the blessing of my Father.

@ Lazario. Want living proof? How about the testimony of a man who died & I have met afterwards & talked to, who was stung by several box jellyfish, (one will kill you) & died. He went to hell, & stood before God in heaven. He is Australian & has travelled the world as instructed by God, telling what he has seen. Which means if he died, he was raised from the dead. In the hospital mortuary! Eyewitness testimony, is THAT proof for you lazario? That is your lot from me. Bye. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... afe=active#

Super Aurora wrote:slight off topic but Old Testament god was hilariously awesome as one story told of God sending bears to kill 40 children because those children mocked a holy man.

Wow! You know your rare Bible stories, some Christians may not be aware of this one. It was because he was bald, they followed & mocked him.
Like you, I have difficulty in grasping the severity of this one, but I do not question my Father who always knows best.
All I have on this one is what is the moral of this story? Then if I take another story to compare, the crucifixion, the robber to the left of Jesus was mocking him. Despite all the pain the robber was already in & slowly dying, a raven came & plucked out his eyes.
What does this tell you? To me it says, mocking any of God’s children, he seems to take extremely seriously, when they are about his business. Good job we can repent isn’t it. For ref, 2 kings ch 2 v23-25 & he went up from there (Elisha the prophet) to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, there came some little children out of the city, & mocked him, & said to him, go, up thou baldhead; go up, thou baldhead. & He turned back, & looked at them, & cursed them in the name of the Lord. & There came forth two female bears out of the woods, & tore 42 children. & He went forth to Mt Carmel…. Personally if I saw a pair of bears, I know how to be safe, run faster than the others. Or better still; do not mock God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit or any of his relatives. (Children).

waltmad wrote:@ Disneyboy
Thanks for your answer. I would love to ask your pastor one question. Would you have a problem passing it on and giving back the answer? I won’t post the question till you say your okay with that.

Sure, that's fine, what's the question you have for the pastor I go to.

waltmad wrote:Damned if we are perfect damned if we are not, which we are not. I also said nobody is perfect, I also told you, you are born into the kingdom like a new born baby and grow. So do babies make mistakes? You keep getting the same answers over & over ‘cos you keep asking the same stuff in disguise.

No, you keep contradicting yourself. You have spun a web full of contradictions and now you're caught in it and you can't get out. First you said a 'true christian' is someone who exactly follows the Bible. Then you said nobody is perfect enough to understand the Bible. Logically, that means nobody can exactly follow the Bible, and therefore there are no 'true christians'. It's not rocket science, you just have to pay attention a bit, instead of pointing to others all the time.

waltmad wrote:[Israel] Propaganda easily dismissed, but it doesn’t’t bother me to agree to disagree.

It's easy to dismiss, but you 'prefer' to disagree? Hmm, why don't I believe that? The land that's now called Israel was a British protectorate (they controlled it), and it was massively populated with Arabs. Not jews. Jews were a very tiny minority at that time.

waltmad wrote:Great answer, that explained it to me so I can explain your confusion, and what attack? When I am just pointing out facts? Also I told you to shut up, where, using the f word?

Where did I say that you "told me to shut up, using the f word"? I never claimed you did such a thing. What are you trying to create here? A Babelonical confusion? Also, kindly show to me where you were pointing out 'facts'? Bible verses are not facts.

waltmad wrote:But you didn’t have to argue with me dumpling

Ooooh! Mommy, mommy, he called me a bad name, mommy!

waltmad wrote:

Goliath wrote: God did not ‘author’ the Bible.

God wrote the torah (in the bible) on mount Sinai with Moses,

No, he didn't.

waltmad wrote:People such as eyewitnesses, wrote the rest, through the Holy Spirit, which is God.

No, they didn't.

waltmad wrote:(Link about the proof on Sinai, discovering Noah’s ark, finding Sodom & Gomorrah etc, is in previous posts to B.P. & laz.

That's not 'proof', that's make-believe. If you can quote only *one* serious scholar who agrees that it's 'proof', I will believe you. But I'm going to save you time: you won't find one. The only people who think that what you presented is 'proof' are, like you, religious nuts. They, in fact, *believe* it's proof. The same way they *believe* in God.

But believing something is real, doesn't make it real. Please, avoid further embarrassement and quit now, before you make an even bigger fool out of yourself and other christians, whom I still do respect. At least most christians have enough common sense to acknowledge that believing in God is just that: "believing". They acknowledge they can't prove it. I respect people with that much common sense.

I beg you for your own sake, to never go up to a serious scholar on religion, or to wander into a university which studies religion, and spout that nonsense 'evidence' of yours. You will be the laughing stock. And here, you can insert your Bible-quote where it says it's good to be mocked and laughed at. Because that will legitimize your detachment from reality.

waltmad wrote:If you don’t know God, how do you know it “is a historical fact that “the bible was not authored by God? He says it is.

Come follow a class on Christianity with me. You know that there are people whom are called archeologists, and antropologists, and theologists, and historians? Well, unlike you, they use their brains not to repeat verses, but to explore things from the past. Like studying the origins of the Bible. They use these things called ancient sources which they have excavated, which tell them lots about the origins of the Bible. It is known which translations of the Old Testaments circulated centuries ago, and also how they came into being.

This is widely known, and not exactly a secret. Hundreds of scholary books have been written about the origins of christianity. To say that the scientific community knows nothing about it, is preposterous. You just have to be *willing* to look up those things and study them, which you are not, like most christians. That's why non-believers are generally much more knowledgable about the history of the Bible than people who do believe.

Page about the development of the Old Testament canon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmen ... ment_canon

The differences between the Hebrew Bible and other versions of the Old Testament such as the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Syriac, Latin, Greek, Ge'ez and other canons, are more substantial. Many of these canons include books and even sections of books that the others do not.

The page contains a compact, yet informative overview of the history of the Old Testament, using 29 different serious sources (experts on christianity, scholars, scientific books).

Another page about how the Old Testament is the work of many, many different people, spread out over many, many ages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_testament

Look how much the original texts that formed the basis of the Bible, have been altered:

The Tanakh is written in Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Aramaic, and is therefore also known as the Hebrew Bible (the text of the Jewish Bible is called the Masoretic, after the medieval Jewish rabbis who compiled it). The Masoretic Text (i.e. the Hebrew text revered by medieval and modern Jews) is only one of several versions of the original scriptures of ancient Judaism, and no manuscripts of that hypothetical original text exist. In the last few centuries before Christ, Hellenistic-Jewish scholars produced a translation of their scriptures in Greek, the common language of the Eastern portion of the Roman Empire since the conquests of Alexander the Great. This translation, known as the Septuagint, forms the basis of the Orthodox and some other Eastern Old Testaments. The Old Testaments of the Western branches of Christianity were originally based on a Latin translation of the Septuagint known as the Vetus Latina, this was replaced by Jerome's Vulgate, which continues to be highly respected in the Catholic Church, but Protestant churches generally follow translations of a scholarly reference known as the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. In 1943, Pope Pius XII issued the Divino Afflante Spiritu which allows Catholic translations from texts other than the Vulgate, notably in English the New American Bible.

And look how many different versions of the Bible have been used through time. Also note how much church leaders have altered the contents of the Old Testament:

The early Christian Church primarily used the Septuagint, often referred to as the LXX, the oldest Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, as its religious text until at least the mid-fourth century (Targums were used by Aramaic speakers). Until that time Greek was a major language of the Roman Empire and a major language of the Church (exceptions include Syrian Orthodoxy and the Church of the East which used the Syriac Peshitta and Ethiopian Orthodoxy which used the Geez, and others, see Early centers of Christianity). In the late first century, Rabbinic Judaism (see Council of Jamnia) began expressing a strong distrust of the accuracy of the Septuagint and eventually rejected it. Talmudic tradition considers the LXX to be both divinely inspired and full of errors.[5]

Early church teachers and writers reacted with even stronger devotion, citing the Septuagint's antiquity and its use by the Evangelists and Apostles. Being the Old Testament quoted by the Gospels and the Greek Church Fathers, the LXX had an essentially official status in the early Christian world.[5] Following in the steps of Philo and Hellenistic Judaism, they claimed its inspiration was not inferior to that of the original. They argued that divergences of the Septuagint from the current Hebrew text were due to accidents of transmission, or that they were not actual errors, but Divine adaptations of the original for the sake of the future Church.[6]

When Jerome undertook the revision of the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint in about 400 AD, he checked the Septuagint against the Hebrew text that was then available. He came to believe that the Hebrew text better testified to Christ than the Septuagint.[citation needed] He broke with church tradition and translated most of the Old Testament of his Vulgate from Hebrew rather than Greek. His choice was severely criticized by Augustine, his contemporary, and others who regarded Jerome as a forger. But with the passage of time, acceptance of Jerome's version gradually increased in the West until it displaced the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint.[7]

The Hebrew text differs in some passages that Christians hold to prophesy Christ, and the Eastern Orthodox Church still prefers to use the Septuagint as the basis for translating the Old Testament into other languages. The Orthodox Church of Constantinople, the Church of Greece and the Cypriot Orthodox Church continue to use it in their liturgy today, untranslated. Many modern critical translations of the Old Testament, while using the Hebrew text as their basis, consult the Septuagint as well as other versions in an attempt to reconstruct the meaning of the Hebrew text whenever the latter is unclear, undeniably corrupt, or ambiguous.[7]

Many of the oldest Biblical verses among the Dead Sea Scrolls, particularly those in Aramaic, correspond more closely with the Septuagint than with the Hebrew text (although the majority of these variations are extremely minor, e.g., grammatical changes, spelling differences or missing words, and do not affect the meaning of sentences and paragraphs).[8][9][10] This confirms the scholarly consensus that the Septuagint represents a separate Hebrew text tradition from that which was later standardized as the Hebrew text (called the Masoretic Text).[8]

Another page, this one about Biblical archaeology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology

This article presents technical information on major excavations and artifacts relating to biblical archaeology, defined as that archaeology which concerns itself with the biblical world.

A page about the Bible and history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history

And all this is just *only* Wikipedia! And the sources it uses is only a fraction of the scholarly work that's available on the history of the Bible!

I deleted all your paranoïd conspiracy theories about me "setting you up" and all. I hope that's alright with you and the man in the sky.

waltmad wrote:@ Lazario. Want living proof? How about the testimony of a man who died & I have met afterwards & talked to, who was stung by several box jellyfish, (one will kill you) & died. He went to hell, & stood before God in heaven. He is Australian & has travelled the world as instructed by God, telling what he has seen. Which means if he died, he was raised from the dead. In the hospital mortuary! Eyewitness testimony, is THAT proof for you lazario? That is your lot from me. Bye. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... afe=active#

'Eyewitness proof'?!

Now I'm sorry I wasted so much of my time on you! I mean, I actually took the time to make a very long post, filled with historical facts, historical arguments, links and sources to provide a serious answer to your misguided, blinded, clouded, mistaken, ignorant and pityful worldview, and it turns out *that* is what you believe in?! Facts won't save you anymore, man. You're a lost cause to sanity. You will live in medieval-like darkness for the rest of your life.

Disney Duster wrote: Aw, no, I would read it because I personally think seeing those movies is okay. It's about what I believe, not whatever anyone else says I should believe.

oh. ok. You still need answer my two pm replies.

Disney Duster wrote:Thanks for all the info on the 7 Heavens (oh jeeze, reminds me of that show...). That was pretty cool but I didn't get a lot of it, like two homes for God, well, which one does he live in? Ah, well, maybe someday I'll find out, online...or actually there!

No problem. The angelology is pretty fucking awesome learning about I find it more interesting that the stuff in the bible. As Angelolgy talks about the Christain cosmos and so forth.

Disney Duster wrote:Oh and you are smart too Super Aurora.

I know that.

waltmad wrote:

Super Aurora wrote: some of them slightly contradict each other.

I have worked in law, in a court of law different witnesses with slightly different versions strengthen the case, it shows no coercion. This is a good thing in the bible then. Thanks, yet another point you helped me make, keep it up pal.

To the bold. I don't know if you are being obnoxiously sarcastic or not, I'll take it as no for now.
Anyway, what you're saying through that analogy seems be that if take all the passage and combine them, you're about to come up with best correlation of that event. But in sense, it seems like you're still drawing it out as the individual's own interpretation how the event may of gone. I pointed this out through your initial debate with Goliath that true Christians only follow the bible(and i'm assuming that also means following it literally too) and that bible is words of god.

waltmad wrote:

Super Aurora wrote:slight off topic but Old Testament god was hilariously awesome as one story told of God sending bears to kill 40 children because those children mocked a holy man.

Wow! You know your rare Bible stories, some Christians may not be aware of this one.

Thanks. It's important that no matter what religion or group or whatever you're in, it still good that you learn from other information that may not side with, to help yourself be more inform and that you are able to use information to best of your uses. I may not be a Christian, but that won't prevent me from learning about it or them.

waltmad wrote: It was because he was bald, they followed & mocked him.
Like you, I have difficulty in grasping the severity of this one, but I do not question my Father who always knows best.

I don't have difficulty grasping it, so much that I found it morbidly hilarious and fitting for a God.
Kinda like this:

God:"If ya fuck with mah homies, bitch. I'll cap bullet on yo Ass, nigga! You Dig?"

waltmad wrote:All I have on this one is what is the moral of this story? Then if I take another story to compare, the crucifixion, the robber to the left of Jesus was mocking him. Despite all the pain the robber was already in & slowly dying, a raven came & plucked out his eyes.
What does this tell you? To me it says, mocking any of God’s children, he seems to take extremely seriously, when they are about his business. Good job we can repent isn’t it. For ref, 2 kings ch 2 v23-25 & he went up from there (Elisha the prophet) to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, there came some little children out of the city, & mocked him, & said to him, go, up thou baldhead; go up, thou baldhead. & He turned back, & looked at them, & cursed them in the name of the Lord. & There came forth two female bears out of the woods, & tore 42 children. & He went forth to Mt Carmel…. Personally if I saw a pair of bears, I know how to be safe, run faster than the others. Or better still; do not mock God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit or any of his relatives. (Children).

The other reason I brought it up is that for an all loving God, he seems pretty brutal and cruel on certain occasions. Now you could argue that God's way of loving is different than how we do so, but even so that, I find it to be very twisted and weird. Also the new testament God seems much more passive than in old testament too. Why the change?

Just thought I would post here since I have been on these forums for like 2 years now. I am Ukrainian Catholic.

Was talking subversive teen comedies over at Slant Magazine and with some of my horror buds at the Michael Myers' fan board, randomly found out teen film actress Rose McGowan (who was girlfriend of rock superstar Marilyn Manson at the time she was doing publicity for the film Jawbreaker, which I worshipped 10 years ago...simpler time, happier time- Clinton administration, naturally) is a stellar interview subject and had a lot to say about America's religious problem:

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Roseanne - one of the most important figures in progressive, intelligent, groundbreaking television - further says about Manson, "I think he's brilliant." Which he certainly was. He's gotten a bit sad and mopey following Lest We Forget, but still highly artistically relevant... at least in looking back at how he challenged everyone's views on everything and pushed the boundaries of free thinking, making it just a little easier for people like me to get as smart as I am. McGowan proves with this interview that she certainly is no trophy girlfriend, having grown up almost as a Carrie-like figure with religion-fueled abuse and judgments thrown at her just because of the way she looked. Sadly, interviews like this are no longer the standard with Celebrity-hosted TV Talk Shows (you can't hear anything on Tyra, Ellen, The View, or Oprah without getting an immediate audience cheer or jeer that drowns out everyone talking). One thing certainly hasn't changed though, as she points out; people are still shoving things down everyone else's throat.

@ Super Aurora
I have quite clearly on more than one occasion stated to Goliath about using the f word and now scroll past his posts. So it seems obvious to me you want me to do the same with yours. I will not be part of this kind of behaviour, especially when a moderator the other day, gave warning. Some people seem to want to close down this thread. Then no one could see the link about the finding of Noah’s ark etc by archeologists scientists etc. http://www.arkdiscovery.com/DVD-RGT.htm, http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahsark.htm I have seen this video and further details elsewhere too but anyone can see it for themselves if they get this dvd. Bye to you too now

I remember vividly once Luke came into a thread and said that cursing / strong language (implying this: within certain instances and contexts) was not really against the rules. Most of the moderators don't like it, but I personally (well, started this trend about 3 years ago, but I controlled it by) place a warning in red at the top of each post I make that contains cursing or graphic descriptions of sex, etc. And I've never been warned or moderated for that since.

waltmad wrote:@ Super Aurora
I have quite clearly on more than one occasion stated to Goliath about using the f word and now scroll past his posts. So it seems obvious to me you want me to do the same with yours. I will not be part of this kind of behaviour, especially when a moderator the other day, gave warning. Some people seem to want to close down this thread. Then no one could see the link about the finding of Noah’s ark etc by archeologists scientists etc. http://www.arkdiscovery.com/DVD-RGT.htm, http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahsark.htm I have seen this video and further details elsewhere too but anyone can see it for themselves if they get this dvd. Bye to you too now

You do realize that sentence I made was just a joke and wasn't even intending to make fun of anyone in particular. You're getting so uptight over such little things. But if you want to end a nice debate over one itty bitty little joke, then be my guest.

Super Aurora wrote:

That was long overdue.

I gather you're trying to apply for position of Forum Saint #4: http://www.dvdizzy.com/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=93
In this case, your sense of charity (and restraint) knows no bounds.

Lazario wrote: I gather you're trying to apply for position of Forum Saint #4: http://www.dvdizzy.com/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=93
In this case, your sense of charity (and restraint) knows no bounds.

Is this respond aimed at me? If so, I never even heard of this "Forum Saint" stuff nor am I trying to act or become one... And what charity and restraint have I shown?

Marilyn Manson the pedophiliac who abuses his too young girlfriends and took out his own ribs to suck his own self?

Super Aurora wrote:You do realize that sentence I made was just a joke and wasn't even intending to make fun of anyone in particular. You're getting so uptight over such little things. But if you want to end a nice debate over one itty bitty little joke, then be my guest.

Where did you get the impression you and him were *ever* in a 'debate'? I mean, this guy hears a person say that he had died, went to hell, met satan, came back to life... and believe this is 'proof' of the existence of an afterlife from 'an eye-witness !!!!!1!1!

You think that's a debate? You think he's actually *interested* in your arguments or what you have to say? The man has closed up his mind and locked up his brains.

I may strongly disagree with DisneyDuster or other christians on this thread, but at least you can *talk* to them and swap arguments and they'll *listen* to you, even if they don't agree, but waltmad has gone,... well, mad.

Goliath wrote: Where did you get the impression you and him were *ever* in a 'debate'? I mean, this guy hears a person say that he had died, went to hell, met satan, came back to life... and believe this is 'proof' of the existence of an afterlife from 'an eye-witness !!!!!1!1!

You think that's a debate? You think he's actually *interested* in your arguments or what you have to say? The man has closed up his mind and locked up his brains.

Maybe debate isn't exactly the right word to use, but there were few things I want to finish talking about. but now he's apparently left cause I said the f word in a joke sentence. i guess him leaving is good thing. Just left in a bad taste.

Goliath wrote: I may strongly disagree with DisneyDuster or other christians on this thread, but at least you can *talk* to them and swap arguments and they'll *listen* to you, even if they don't agree.

Are you saying that's good thing or bad thing?

I tend to go the less aggressive route to open them up to reconsider the contradictions they sprout. Reverse psychology ftw.

Super Aurora wrote:

Lazario wrote: I gather you're trying to apply for position of Forum Saint #4: http://www.dvdizzy.com/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=93
In this case, your sense of charity (and restraint) knows no bounds.

Is this respond aimed at me? If so, I never even heard of this "Forum Saint" stuff nor am I trying to act or become one... And what charity and restraint have I shown?

Um... (Man, this is the scariest backtracking I've done in a decade): it's like a joke. I made it up. Didn't you click on the link...?

It means: "You're a better man than I, (you know the saying right?) for (insert whatever: watching [that], listening to [that], talking to [that])."

You know how people use that saying ("better man than I") when they just don't want to deal with something? That's all I meant.

Disney Duster wrote:Marilyn Manson the pedophiliac who abuses his too young girlfriends and took out his own ribs to suck his own self?

Those are nothing more than rumors.

Don't you have something better to do?

Lazario wrote:

Super Aurora wrote: Is this respond aimed at me? If so, I never even heard of this "Forum Saint" stuff nor am I trying to act or become one... And what charity and restraint have I shown?

Um... (Man, this is the scariest backtracking I've done in a decade): it's like a joke. I made it up. Didn't you click on the link...?

It means: "You're a better man than I, (you know the saying right?) for (insert whatever: watching [that], listening to [that], talking to [that])."

You know how people use that saying ("better man than I") when they just don't want to deal with something? That's all I meant.

oh ok. sorry for the confusion.

Thanks / no prob.