DVDizzy Forum

Escapay wrote:I've missed you, lord-of-sith.

Awww thanks I'm still a lurker now and then!

I just think there are some big overreactions in this thread. There are both good and back 3D movies, just like 2D movies. There is no single movie solely responsible for the demise of Disney 2D animation. Home on the Range and Brother Bear are just as responsible as Toy Story and Shrek. Give me artistry and great story telling, and the form in which it comes is merely secondary. Still important, but indeed secondary. And I believe quite firmly that if Walt were still around that 3D films would still be a massive and important part of the animation landscape.

Look at Jurrasic World, it made INSANE money because it had been so long since the public had a movie quite like it (or at least from the franchise). Give it 10 years, and a 2D movie could make gangbusters based on nostalgia alone. As long as it's any good, that is.

but, but would you really consider Jurassic World a good story?

I dont like using "bad storytelling" as proof of why people stopped watching traditional animation b/c

1# good/bad storytelling is subjective, I know many(myself included) that thought Brother Bear and Treasure Planet had great stories but thought BH6 and Minions were bad, but many others will think the opposite...

2# if bad storytelling killed 2d why do hundreds of awful CGI films make so much money every year?

unprincess wrote:but, but would you really consider Jurassic World a good story?

Speaking for myself; No! Haha! While it looks like I'm dismissing it completely, the "Jurassic Park" franchise's existence are not for the story's sake.

1# good/bad storytelling is subjective

Indeed.

, I know many(myself included) that thought Brother Bear and Treasure Planet had great stories but thought BH6 and Minions were bad, but many others will think the opposite...

I have the notion that "Minions" existence are just to milk the franchise. "Big Hero 6" had a decent story, though.

"Treasure Planet" had a good story with several evocative and clever plotpoints. "Brother Bear", not so much. It felt like a moral hammering lesson rather than a genunine story and could've been executed better. Besides, Kenai's lust for revenge would've reasonated more if the bear actually killed Sitka.

2# if bad storytelling killed 2d why do hundreds of awful CGI films make so much money every year?

True. It's not to blame on the story. People are shallow and like seeing awful franchises.

The only way for Disney to ever invest in another 2D animated film is if they see profit in it. That's the one thing they care about now.

However I don't see it happening for the next ten years, but having said that is hand drawn animation dead?

Absolutely not, there are still projects happening all over the world. And frankly, to say Disney will never do another hand drawn feature… well, how are we to know for sure? Ten years time things COULD be different.

Having said that, no, I don't think the existence of Toy Story had anything to do with hand drawn animation getting into the decline it went into. The problem was that Disney themselves ran out of yeas and yes, those cheapquels WERE damaging to their trust.

lord-of-sith wrote:I just think there are some big overreactions in this thread.

I'm still wondering if you actually read the thread, tbh, since, again, most people who've posted agree with you. I feel like a lot of people have been responding to the overreaction they expect from the thread title, but that hasn't actually happened in the thread itself...

unprincess wrote: I dont like using "bad storytelling" as proof of why people stopped watching traditional animation b/c

1# good/bad storytelling is subjective, I know many(myself included) that thought Brother Bear and Treasure Planet had great stories but thought BH6 and Minions were bad, but many others will think the opposite...

2# if bad storytelling killed 2d why do hundreds of awful CGI films make so much money every year?

I agree, trying to blame all the flops in the world on "bad story" is grasping at straws, when there are a large group of films with bad stories that have made hundreds of millions.

Disney's Divinity wrote:I'm still wondering if you actually read the thread, tbh, since, again, most people who've posted agree with you. I feel like a lot of people have been responding to the overreaction they expect from the thread title, but that hasn't actually happened in the thread itself...

I assure you I did read the thread, which prompted me to respond. I didn't mean to sound confrontational or start a fight, but here are some examples that read to me as overreactions:

Sotiris wrote:It's time to face the fact that Disney will never produce another 2D feature.

2Disney4Ever wrote:But you know, the only thing that Sotiris' hopeless, spirit breaking attitude that 2D animation will never come back to Disney really does is just make me continue to hate Disney and CGI more and more, and trash every new animated movie that Disney puts out now. If you can't have any hope for the things you value in life, then you're just left feeling bitterness and negativity towards the things that you blame for losing it.

Hence why I'm not watching/supporting CG movies anymore.

2Disney4Ever wrote: I just sat in another room the whole time where I wouldn't have to look at it, because I no longer want anything to do with one of the movies responsible for killing off hand-drawn animation and ruining the industry.

I understand the feeling of loss towards traditional Disney animation, but it's really unfair to blame a single film, studio, or person for why it's changed. It'll come back around, just not as soon as any of us would like for it to. The quality films will stand the test of time, have faith in that.

lord-of-sith wrote:I assure you I did read the thread, which prompted me to respond. I didn't mean to sound confrontational or start a fight,

Oh, that's okay. I hope I didn't sound confrontational either, I tried to word my responses carefully. I'll admit I'm very cynical towards the subject of another hand-drawn film coming from Disney anytime soon. Maybe 10-15 years from now, maybe...? But even that may be unlikely.

The landscape changed pretty quickly in going from hand-drawn to CGI, so you never know when things will go the other way. Trends can be very fickle, and often times they circle around. We can never know for sure that 2D will make a triumphant return (or a return at all) at Disney and other major studios, but we can never rule anything out either. I know that's essentially saying anything can happen, and by extension not really saying anything, but it is what it is.

But personally, I do genuinely think it is reasonable to expect the return of 2D at Disney sometime in the future (based on how trends work, and the rich history of 2D animation), and for people to dismiss that as trying to "give false hope" is just kinda presumptuous. How is saying that "Disney will never produce another 2D feature" any more valid of a statement? I mean, it's perfectly fine to be a cynic and have that viewpoint; perhaps it's even the more "logical" way of looking at it, since things certainly look dire now and for the foreseeable future. So I don't think it is at all unfounded of an idea to have. But since none of us have a crystal ball, it just doesn't make sense to entirely dismiss the opposing viewpoint either.

my fear is that by the time it comes back I'll be in my 70's with bad eyesite/hearing/memory...blah! I wanna enjoy the 2nd coming of traditional animation NOWSIES!

unprincess wrote:my fear is that by the time it comes back I'll be in my 70's with bad eyesite/hearing/memory...blah! I wanna enjoy the 2nd coming of traditional animation NOWSIES!

I guess that's not an entirely unreasonable concern. It's true that even if it comes back, it could take more time than any of us would like... Honestly, I want it NOWSIES! too, but it is what it is. I'm relatively enjoying their recent output and am getting my 2D animation fix elsewhere, so that'll tide me over for now...

unprincess wrote:my fear is that by the time it comes back I'll be in my 70's with bad eyesite/hearing/memory...blah! I wanna enjoy the 2nd coming of traditional animation NOWSIES!

And we were having one, until Disney decided after only two movies that it wasn't worth pressing on and keeping their word to us. It shouldn't be any surprise to people why I've had so much hate for the Disney studio now since then. They practically toyed with my feelings for 2D animation and wanting it back so much with their empty promises for a "revival" that they were only just as quickly going to give the axe to a few years later. Converting the hand-drawn Snow Queen to CGI Frozen after it was intended to be a part of that revival was the final insult-to-injury for me.

In the end, Disney has betrayed my trust.

unprincess wrote:my fear is that by the time it comes back I'll be in my 70's with bad eyesite/hearing/memory...blah! I wanna enjoy the 2nd coming of traditional animation NOWSIES!

But it's true, by the time 2D animation may even possibly (and it's not a definite thing) make much of a substantial return in the US, most of us will be 50+. Or, who knows, dead.

It's the same thing in regards to new leadership--who knows how long it'll be before we see films without Lasseter's interferenceinvolvement at Disney again. *shrug*

There's a new article that solely credits Toy Story for the shift in the animation industry.

How 'Toy Story' changed the face of animation, taking off 'like an explosion'
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/mo ... story.html

Well better in Pixar's shadow than Dreamworks' fart jokes and "FUCK YOU DISNEY" attitude.