DVDizzy Forum

Julian Carter wrote:Does being a feminist entail never accepting a man as your romantic partner?

Of course not. It's not the fact that she ended up with the beast that goes against her being a feminist, it's that she turned Gaston down because she didn't want to be his 'little wife', but suddenly she wants to be the Beast's little wife? I wasn't trying to say that because she took a man she isn't a feminist, I was trying to say that she simply does not perform one feminist action, other than originally turning Gaston down. Which gets cancelled out.

Disney Duster wrote:Anyway, I don't think she is "feminist", just that compared to every Disney female before her, she was feminist.

Now this I agree with. She is the closest thing to a feminist than any other princess, other than Mulan. (If you're going by the official line)

Scarred4life wrote:

Julian Carter wrote:Does being a feminist entail never accepting a man as your romantic partner?

Of course not. It's not the fact that she ended up with the beast that goes against her being a feminist, it's that she turned Gaston down because she didn't want to be his 'little wife', but suddenly she wants to be the Beast's little wife? I wasn't trying to say that because she took a man she isn't a feminist, I was trying to say that she simply does not perform one feminist action, other than originally turning Gaston down. Which gets cancelled out.

I explained how by being with the Beast she wasn't being his little wife. I mean they were friends first, too, she only said she loved him when he was dying. Can you please explain how what I said does not ring true?

Disney Duster wrote:Now this I agree with. She is the closest thing to a feminist than any other princess, other than Mulan. (If you're going by the official line)

Did you forget Tiana? I think she's the most feminist of all.

Disney Duster wrote:Did you forget Tiana? I think she's the most feminist of all.

And, let's not forget, the most token.

Lazario wrote:

Disney Duster wrote:Did you forget Tiana? I think she's the most feminist of all.

And, let's not forget, the most token.

LOL yup. You could say she's token in representing both racial and feminist progression. Too bad I would say she wasn't good where it counts - character.

Disney Duster wrote:You could say she's token in representing both racial and feminist progression. Too bad I would say she wasn't good where it counts - character.

I'm sorry, she was "good" for... anything?

Haha she was good for getting people off Disney's back about not having any black or feminist princesses. And her being feminist is good.

And I think she had some nice qualities. Just not a very good/memorable/likeable character or Disney princess.

Disney Duster wrote:Haha she was good for getting people off Disney's back about not having any black or feminist princesses. And her being feminist is good.

And I think she had some nice qualities. Just not a very good/memorable/likeable character or Disney princess.

I think little girls might disagree because Princess Tiana seems to becoming very popular with them.I don't blame them because I would too if I were around their age.Then again she would be really popular with African American families who for years have been pining for Disney to create a black princess.I know the controversy was big when the Princess and the Frog came out but I think its died out.However,I think from the merchandising I can see Tiana will be a core member for the Disney princess franchise for years to come.

@jazz flower: When it comes to the modern Disney princesses and/or heroines, I would honestly just ignore. Duster hates them all, for one reason or another.

jazzflower92 wrote:I think little girls might disagree because Princess Tiana seems to becoming very popular with them.I don't blame them because I would too if I were around their age.Then again she would be really popular with African American families who for years have been pining for Disney to create a black princess.

How would you know, did you take a poll?

I agree with jazzflower92. Tiana is incredibly popular. I think she's the most feminist of all.

Duster, I disagree with you. How is Tiana not a very good/memorable/likeable character or Disney princess?!?! Number one, she's the only black one, which is pretty memorable. She had a good and realistic dream as well.

Disney's Divinity wrote:@jazz flower: When it comes to the modern Disney princesses and/or heroines, I would honestly just ignore. Duster hates them all, for one reason or another.

Um, yea, that's totally true since I defended Belle in this very same thread. Oh, wait. : /

tsom wrote:Duster, I disagree with you. How is Tiana not a very good/memorable/likeable character or Disney princess?!?! Number one, she's the only black one, which is pretty memorable. She had a good and realistic dream as well.

It's hard to explain when a character that sounds good on paper doesn't turn out so, but she was just boring, watered down by political and "hit-making" motives. She was a hard-working black girl who did all the things she was "supposed" to do and with a "I'm doing what you should" stuck-up attitude about it to (the way she talked to Naveen). All the characters, from Naveen to Facilier to Mama Odie to Charlotte to even Louis out-shined her. For the first time the prince was more likeable and memorable than the princess. That says something.

I liked Tiana's voice. I liked seeing her in her moments when she wasn't working or speaking down to someone. I didn't like her when she was a frog while Naveen still was great as a frog.

And I didn't think her dream was really good. She wanted to open a restaraunt? I didn't think that was great. I thought it was better when she wanted to be the princess of jazz that they originally planned on. And if any of this offends you, I'm sorry.

Why would it offend me? Lol

To me, a dream to open a restaurant is pretty epic. Right up there with Ariel wanting to become human or Rapunzel leaving the tower. Just like you wanting to create a Broadway version of Cinderella.

And from a historical perspective, a black female during pre-civil rights America opening a restaurant is a HUGE dream.

How can I explain...okay, so Tiana wants to open up a place where people eat food she sells. I feel like yearning to be part of a whole nother world or leaving a tower to experience the whole world or making a show that tells a story and moves people and is a piece of art are all more amazing than that dream.

But who's to say one's dream is bigger or smaller than someone else's? That's like saying an individual's dream to own their own marketing firm is lesser than someone's dream to teach English to kids in Paris or something.

Eh nevermind, we will never agree.

Disney Duster wrote:How can I explain...okay, so Tiana wants to open up a place where people eat food she sells. I feel like yearning to be part of a whole nother world or leaving a tower to experience the whole world or making a show that tells a story and moves people and is a piece of art are all more amazing than that dream.

In other words, you find people with grander than life dreams or over-romanticize dreams to be much better than dreams of something simple and straightforward like owning restaurant?

tsom wrote:But who's to say one's dream is bigger or smaller than someone else's? That's like saying an individual's dream to own their own marketing firm is lesser than someone's dream to teach English to kids in Paris or something.

Eh nevermind, we will never agree.

I don't think we will agree. I was really let down when I found out what they changed her dream to. Okay, in real life it's a great dream, but when compared to the other dreams...well I'm sorry that's how I feel.

Super Aurora wrote:In other words, you find people with grander than life dreams or over-romanticize dreams to be much better than dreams of something simple and straightforward like owning restaurant?

No. Think of it this way - I was talking about what dreams seemed greater, more epic, for the movie. Compared to the previous dreams, Tiana's is not as much as those.

Disney Duster wrote:

tsom wrote:But who's to say one's dream is bigger or smaller than someone else's? That's like saying an individual's dream to own their own marketing firm is lesser than someone's dream to teach English to kids in Paris or something.

Eh nevermind, we will never agree.

I don't think we will agree. I was really let down when I found out what they changed her dream to. Okay, in real life it's a great dream, but when compared to the other dreams...well I'm sorry that's how I feel.

Super Aurora wrote:In other words, you find people with grander than life dreams or over-romanticize dreams to be much better than dreams of something simple and straightforward like owning restaurant?

No. Think of it this way - I was talking about what dreams seemed greater, more epic, for the movie. Compared to the previous dreams, Tiana's is not as much as those.

Super Aurora pretty much summed up what I was thinking/trying to say. But it's your opinion.

I'm curious, why do you guys think Tiana is the most feminist (over Mulan!)? What did she do that outdoes everyone else? It's been a while since I've seen the movie but I don't remember her doing anything super feminist.

And I wasn't able to really empathize with her dream either. A big issue I have with the movie. It's not that the dream of owning a restaurant is bad or that it wasn't a huge goal for her at the time, the story just failed to inject much emotion behind it.

FlyingPiggy wrote:I'm curious, why do you guys think Tiana is the most feminist (over Mulan!)? What did she do that outdoes everyone else?

She stop making cotton.

FlyingPiggy wrote:I'm curious, why do you guys think Tiana is the most feminist (over Mulan!)? What did she do that outdoes everyone else? It's been a while since I've seen the movie but I don't remember her doing anything super feminist.

And I wasn't able to really empathize with her dream either. A big issue I have with the movie. It's not that the dream of owning a restaurant is bad or that it wasn't a huge goal for her at the time, the story just failed to inject much emotion behind it.

I assumed we were talking about the most feminist princess, and I don't consider Mulan a princess, so I wasn't counting her.

About Tiana, well one example is her mother telling her to settle down and get married, but Tiana said she didn't have time for all of that.

Also, most of the film was spent talking about how she dreamed about owning her own restaurant and make her own father's dream come true as well. There were even songs about it throughout the movie. It doesn't get any more emotional than that.