DVDizzy Forum

Mooky wrote:Says you. It's got great atmosphere, spellbinding visuals and standout performances. And even though some things in it are at odds with actual Batman comics (in the sense that it is more of a Burton film than a Batman film), it's still more entertaining, enjoyable, memorable and influential than what passes for Batman films nowadays.

Danny DeVito is good as the Penguin, but other than that, I don't think the cast is that good; as it is a Burton film, the visuals are wonderful, but you need more than good sets to create great atmosphere.

Mooky wrote:I understand you may dislike the film, but putting it on the B&R level of awfulness has no basis in reality whatsoever.

Okay, I was a bit harsh (and Batman and Robin is much worse), but the fact that you see it as better than the Nolan Batman films has no basis in reality either.

Lazario wrote:Bullshit it is. You must think the world of Batman Forever then.

Batman Forever is poorly-made, but at least it's an effort; Schumacher tried to add depth to the character of Bruce Wayne through the flashbacks, whereas Batman Returns not only made Batman uninteresting and one-dimensional, but a killer, which goes against everything Batman is supposed to be. Burton's horrendous trashing of the Batman comics allowed Joel Schumacher to fuck them up even more.

Dr Frankenollie wrote:Danny DeVito is good as the Penguin, but other than that, I don't think the cast is that good; as it is a Burton film, the visuals are wonderful, but you need more than good sets to create great atmosphere.

It's not just the sets, there's music, there's cinematography, dialogues, make-up... I could go on and on. And I'm surprised that outside of DeVito, you don't find any of the cast good. Maybe you thought Michelle Pfeiffer or Christopher Walken were too outlandish, but there's no excuse in ignoring Michael Keaton's performance - even the most ardent BB/TDK fans agree that Christian Bale's Batman left much to be desired and that Keaton's Batman is the definitive movie Batman, second only to Kevin Conroy's.

Dr Frankenollie wrote:Okay, I was a bit harsh (and Batman and Robin is much worse), but the fact that you see it as better than the Nolan Batman films has no basis in reality either.

I never said it was better, I said it was "more entertaining, enjoyable, memorable and influential". I don't deny Nolan's ingenuity (I quite liked both BB and TDK - enough to own them on DVD and enough to be mildly excited about TDKR), but, at any moment, I'd rather spend my time watching a refined fusion of pure escapism, fantasy and art than the movies that are essentially cop/gangster action dramas (not my preferred genre) that take themselves way too seriously and that just happen to feature a guy dressing as a bat.

But enough with us hijacking this thread, can we just get on with the game?

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 12 Points (+2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 8 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 10 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 12 Points
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 6 Points (-2)
Sleepy Hollow - 10 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland

Mooky wrote:It's not just the sets, there's music, there's cinematography, dialogues, make-up... I could go on and on. And I'm surprised that outside of DeVito, you don't find any of the cast good. Maybe you thought Michelle Pfeiffer or Christopher Walken were too outlandish, but there's no excuse in ignoring Michael Keaton's performance - even the most ardent BB/TDK fans agree that Christian Bale's Batman left much to be desired and that Keaton's Batman is the definitive movie Batman, second only to Kevin Conroy's.

For me, the cinematography is only really good in the opening scene, and when the camera revolves around the snow-capped, abandoned Gotham zoo. The dialogue isn't spectacular, but in all fairness, the sets, the music and the Penguin's make-up are all good. However, a lot of this - sets, music, cinematography - is to do with the style of the movie rather than the substance. I think the important parts (characters, story and plot) are awfully weak.

Pfeiffer is good at conveying this angry and hateful person trapped inside a timid, self-consciousness character, but after she wrecks her apartment, I find her acting poor in comparison to the rest of it. Christopher Walken is hammy and I only like Keaton in the first Burton Batman film.

Also, even though Christian Bale's 'Batman voice' is somewhat silly, you can't deny that he excels at doing unique personas for each part of Bruce Wayne's life; in Batman Begins, he plays him as an arrogant playboy, a naive bum, Batman, and the real Bruce Wayne.

Mooky wrote:I never said it was better, I said it was "more entertaining, enjoyable, memorable and influential". I don't deny Nolan's ingenuity (I quite liked both BB and TDK - enough to own them on DVD and enough to be mildly excited about TDKR), but, at any moment, I'd rather spend my time watching a refined fusion of pure escapism, fantasy and art than the movies that are essentially cop/gangster action dramas (not my preferred genre) that take themselves way too seriously and that just happen to feature a guy dressing as a bat.

I'd rather spend my time watching a movie which isn't style over substance (and regardless of genre, features an original story driven by well-developed characters and stellar direction) than something like Batman Returns, which is nothing more than poorly-structured style over substance.

For me at least, the Nolan films are much more entertaining, enjoyable and memorable than the Burton films. They're nowhere near as influential as Burton's Batman films, but in all fairness, they are recent.

Mooky wrote:But enough with us hijacking this thread, can we just get on with the game?

I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of discussion alongside the game play, especially as it isn't 'off-topic.'



Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 10 Points (-2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 6 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 10 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 8 Points (-2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 6 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 10 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 10 Points (+2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 6 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 10 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland

[quote="Lazario"]Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 10 Points
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 4 Points (-2)
Sleepy Hollow - 10 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 10 Points
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 4 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 8 Points (-2)

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 8 Points (-2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 4 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 8 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 8 Points
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 2 Points (-2)
Sleepy Hollow - 8 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland

Dr Frankenollie wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of discussion alongside the game play, especially as it isn't 'off-topic.'

I agree in general, but I thought mods might have a problem with it, especially since there already is a 'Batman' thread in the Movies, Music & TV section of the forum.

Dr Frankenollie wrote:For me, the cinematography is only really good in the opening scene, and when the camera revolves around the snow-capped, abandoned Gotham zoo. The dialogue isn't spectacular, but in all fairness, the sets, the music and the Penguin's make-up are all good. However, a lot of this - sets, music, cinematography - is to do with the style of the movie rather than the substance. I think the important parts (characters, story and plot) are awfully weak.

Pfeiffer is good at conveying this angry and hateful person trapped inside a timid, self-consciousness character, but after she wrecks her apartment, I find her acting poor in comparison to the rest of it. Christopher Walken is hammy and I only like Keaton in the first Burton Batman film.

Also, even though Christian Bale's 'Batman voice' is somewhat silly, you can't deny that he excels at doing unique personas for each part of Bruce Wayne's life; in Batman Begins, he plays him as an arrogant playboy, a naive bum, Batman, and the real Bruce Wayne.

I'd rather spend my time watching a movie which isn't style over substance (and regardless of genre, features an original story driven by well-developed characters and stellar direction) than something like Batman Returns, which is nothing more than poorly-structured style over substance.

For me at least, the Nolan films are much more entertaining, enjoyable and memorable than the Burton films. They're nowhere near as influential as Burton's Batman films, but in all fairness, they are recent.

And you have every right to your opinion. I just find it funny how people give way too much credit to Nolan films for being supposedly deep (don't make me laugh) and true to the character. Well, if being true to the character means stripping him down to banality and subduing him to 'realism' so he'd be easier to sell to today's cynical mainstream audiences that find more fantastical elements of Batman mythos childish and absurd (or to put it more bluntly - sucking out every bit of fun out of the character), I'll just stick to Batman Returns. And to be honest, BB/TDK seem more guilty of being 'style over substance' as you put it.

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 10 Points (+2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 2 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 8 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 10 Points
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Mars Attacks! - 0 Points (- 2 Points) ELIMINATED
Sleepy Hollow - 8 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland
Mars Attacks!

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 12 Points (+2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 8 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland
Mars Attacks!

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 12 Points
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 6 Points (-2)

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland
Mars Attacks!

Mooky wrote:And you have every right to your opinion. I just find it funny how people give way too much credit to Nolan films for being supposedly deep (don't make me laugh) and true to the character. Well, if being true to the character means stripping him down to banality and subduing him to 'realism' so he'd be easier to sell to today's cynical mainstream audiences that find more fantastical elements of Batman mythos childish and absurd (or to put it more bluntly - sucking out every bit of fun out of the character), I'll just stick to Batman Returns. And to be honest, BB/TDK seem more guilty of being 'style over substance' as you put it.

The Nolan movies do have depth, and they're most certainly not more guilty of being style over substance than Batman Returns. The best parts of Batman Returns are the production design, the cinematography and the make-up (aka 'style'). The best parts of the Nolan movies are the scripts, the performances and the compelling characters (aka 'substance').

I think you slightly dislike the Nolan movies simply because you compare them to the more fantastical adaptations of the Batman character, when you should view them as a separate entity altogether.



Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 10 Points (-2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 6 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland
Mars Attacks!

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 8 Points (-2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 6 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland
Mars Attacks!

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 8 Points
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 4 Points (-2)

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland
Mars Attacks!

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 6 Points (-2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 4 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland
Mars Attacks!

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 6 Points
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 2 Points (-2)

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland
Mars Attacks!

Pee-Wee's Big Adventure - 10 Points
Beetlejuice - 10 Points
Batman - 10 Points
Edward Scissorhands - 10 Points
Batman Returns - 4 Points (-2)
Ed Wood - 10 Points
Sleepy Hollow - 2 Points

Big Fish - 10 Points
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street - 14 Points

ELIMINATED:
Planet of the Apes
Tim Burton's Corpse Bride
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Alice in Wonderland
Mars Attacks!