DVDizzy Forum

But even if something is for adults, it doesn't mean it is smart. It just bothers me that the only thing that seems to distinguish Belle as smart is that she can read. The evil stepmothers of the Disney's earlier features could. The three good fairies could read the sewing and cook books.

Well, this isn't really an argument for why Belle's smarter than the others, but I think the examples you gave there (the stepmothers and fairies) were all somewhat intelligent. Sophisticated, at least. They were all in relatively high places as well.

Ariel- If she's so smart why didn't she just use her father's trident to turn herself human.

Not that I have a magical staff to practice this theory on, but the movie never really expounds on how the trident works. In fact, I always assumed (based on the original movie and not on the sequels or TV series) that the Trident only works for the ruler of the sea. Ariel would only ever be ruler of the sea if Triton and all her sisters died, so I don't think she'd ever have that power.

I think you also have to consider the fact that "smart" can be one or more of the following: intelligence, education, "street" smarts, cleverness, etc.
For example, Snow White could be very intelligent, but if her stepmother denied her education, she may not be as "smart" as she could be.
Aurora can read and write, as seen in her "Enchanted Tales" episode, and was left in charge of the kingdom, so she had to be seen as either being smart enough to do so or having been educated by the fairies and then perhaps at the palace (if women were given schooling during that time period, but it's a fairy tale, so...).

schoollover, as much as I would like to believe Cinderella knew, or thought the mice would make her dress, that is rather doubtful. Though Cinderella believed good things would happen to her because she did good and believed, and I wonder if she taught the mice to sew...

Oh, and we should never ever bring sequels like Cinderella 3 or Enchanted Tales into a discussion of a character. The only characters we're talking about here are the ones in the original movie, done by the original creators of those movies. I lot of people felt Cinderella and Aurora changed in their sequels, but even if they didn't, it's about the original characters the way they originally were by the original creators.

You know, I thought about it more, and I guess what it is not just that she can read, because many other Disney females can, too, but Belle likes reading and reads a lot. I know, I bet you all told me that already.

So it's probably just this that really bothers me: Reading is something that is supposed to make you smart, and Belle does it. Okay. So she does this thing that supposedly makes you smart. But Belle never shows she is smart, she never shows her smartness. She never says or does anything I would think is particularly smart, or at least smarter than any previous Disney heroine.

Flam-Ham, schoollover, Snow White isn't just a product of her time. She's also meant to be a naive, innocent, pure good girl, 13 or 14 though she may be. She is supposed to be so good, she cannot think a bad thought, it's almost like having no knowledge of evil...I think. Though I really, really hate the part where she suspects the dwarfs of not washing their hands, because then she really thinks something bad of them. Unless when she says "perhaps you have washed" she is trying to think good of them. But then she asks to see their hands so... Hm, maybe someone could even say she's smart from that? Whatever.

Disney Duster wrote:So it's probably just this that really bothers me: Reading is something that is supposed to make you smart, and Belle does it. Okay. So she does this thing that supposedly makes you smart. But Belle never shows she is smart, she never shows her smartness. She never says or does anything I would think is particularly smart, or at least smarter than any previous Disney heroine.

This is what I was thinking too. Belle is probably adored by feminists for appearing to be a reader and non-conformist by not wanting to marry Gaston or do what everyone else does, but does she genuinely display any intelligence or does she just got through emotions like most Disney females?

Wow...talk about a thread that's gonna give me a splitting headache.

Seriously I think you guys are thinking waaaaay too hard.

Dont you find it odd that Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty are being considered more helpless princess compared to say Belle or Jasmine?...um maybe it has to do with the fact that the films were made on completely different sides of the 20th century.

I dont think when Walt produced the films he made that he wanted to focus on his characters development as much as he wanted to get through the full-length time to tell his stories. Seriously why waste so much focus time on dwarves, mice, or fairies when theyre not the main characters? Walt perhaps enjoyed these cartoony aspects/moments of his films. Also note the fairy tale princes had more personality and names in the 90s films than the princes in the films Walt made (Prince Phillip became the most developed human prince Walt ever made).

Note how the 90s Disney films seem more heavily involved in its main characters and pushes its sidekicks to the back. Walt was more push the sidekicks to the front, IMO. Weird irony.

Wow, this reminds me so much of the rants the crazy princess lovers I knew of...

Why is it that Snow White / Cinderella/ Aurora fans are always so overzealous and ready to attack and demean every other character/movie that isn't those three? I've already seen 3 people that act exactly like that.

With me kind of being like that myself, I think it's because all the other princesses are seen as more popular to them. They are seen as better. More complex. More progressive. Better role models. All of that. So they are kind of hurt that their favorite princesses have gotten a bad deal in being the first princesses and being less developed or less good role models. They feel sad about it and are hurt by the comments of not just people always saying how much they love the rest of the princesses, but also how superior they are to the classic three. They didn't need too many comments, just enough, to tip them over the edge. They just percieved the popularity of the rest of the princesses over the first three and a certain betterness they have over them. And they feel they need to really try to fight that back and prove it all wrong.

Yes, I agree with everything the OP said at the very beginning, especially about Cinderella. In fact all three Walt-era Princesses are criticized online for being too passive. But I think each one has her own distinct personality, and you see it in every scene. Sure, they all dream of being saved by a Prince, but there's more to each of them. I'm kinda sad to see people criticizing them, because they're great characters.

Disney Duster wrote:With me kind of being like that myself, I think it's because all the other princesses are seen as more popular to them. They are seen as better. More complex. More progressive. Better role models. All of that. So they are kind of hurt that their favorite princesses have gotten a bad deal in being the first princesses and being less developed or less good role models. They feel sad about it and are hurt by the comments of not just people always saying how much they love the rest of the princesses, but also how superior they are to the classic three. They didn't need too many comments, just enough, to tip them over the edge. They just percieved the popularity of the rest of the princesses over the first three and a certain betterness they have over them. And they feel they need to really try to fight that back and prove it all wrong.

Duster, don't. This person was bitter to the point of hating basically every Disney film that wasn't Snow White/Cinderella/Sleeping Beauty. Hated to moronic levels the Renaissance and called the Dark / Experimental Era movies "overrated". You're much better than that.

There's one thing being obsessive with your favorite film. God knows I am that way towards TLM--and several other things--to the point that I'll nitpick or be annoyed about things nobody else in the world will give a darn about. It's always sad when that transforms into attacking other films and characters to prop your favorite up as better. I remember something similar happening to Frozen from people who liked Tangled better.

I do admit I said a lot of critical things about Tangled while it was being made and after it was released. I was more bitter because it wasn't going to be hand-drawn like initially planned, and then not even involving Glen Keane, and then all the stuff with the directors essentially resenting the fact that their film was a musical--not to mention the horrible title itself, ugh. I had the same resentment towards Frozen while it was being made (that it went from being a cancelled hand-drawn film called The Snow Queen with Alan Menken attached after TP&TF was deliberately sabotagedunderperformed to a 3D film called Frozen with the Lopezes after Tangled did well), but the finished product impressed me anyway. Still, my opinion of Tangled has softened over the years, probably as the death of hand-drawn animation is further and further in the past.

Yes Vlad, the three originals still have their own personalities and there is more to them than being passive and wanting a prince to save them. Actually Aurora didn't necessarily want to be saved, except I guess from her hum drum life?

Oh, thank you thedisneyspirit.

I find it very anachronistic to defend a princess by demeaning other princesses. Why can't we enjoy all the great characters created by Disney over the years. Does everything need to be a competition?

Disney's Divinity wrote:There's one thing being obsessive with your favorite film. God knows I am that way towards TLM--and several other things--to the point that I'll nitpick or be annoyed about things nobody else in the world will give a darn about. It's always sad when that transforms into attacking other films and characters to prop your favorite up as better. I remember something similar happening to Frozen from people who liked Tangled better.

I do admit I said a lot of critical things about Tangled while it was being made and after it was released. I was more bitter because it wasn't going to be hand-drawn like initially planned, and then not even involving Glen Keane, and then all the stuff with the directors essentially resenting the fact that their film was a musical--not to mention the horrible title itself, ugh. I had the same resentment towards Frozen while it was being made (that it went from being a cancelled hand-drawn film called The Snow Queen with Alan Menken attached after TP&TF was deliberately sabotagedunderperformed to a 3D film called Frozen with the Lopezes after Tangled did well), but the finished product impressed me anyway. Still, my opinion of Tangled has softened over the years, probably as the death of hand-drawn animation is further and further in the past.

But eventually, you (Not speaking of you, claiming in general) just don't end up winning. You end up looking like a bitter, hateful person who just lives to create conflict. You think people will end up flocking to your favorite princess just because in order to defend her, you had to go and call X heroine a "slut" to make her seem better? Oh yeah, because I'm sure X fans will now like your princess waifu now, just after you insulted their faves.

And it's slightly ironic how the fans of the "Classics" love them because they consider them "nicer" than those bitchy/Slutty Renaissance/Revival girls (their actual words, not mine), yet so far their fans are the most hateful, bitter people of the fandom. Duster is so far the only nice Classics fans I've met.

thedisneyspirit wrote:Duster is so far the only nice Classics fans I've met.

Aw, thanks, you're awesome too! And I would also say JeanGreyForever is a nice Classics fan! Maybe you didn't know she is a Classic princess fan?

thedisneyspirit wrote:
But eventually, you (Not speaking of you, claiming in general) just don't end up winning. You end up looking like a bitter, hateful person who just lives to create conflict.

Oh, no, I know you're speaking in general. Even if you were talking to me directly, I wouldn't be offended. I know I have been a bitter and/or hateful person over some things. *shrug*

As for the Walt princesses, there isn't anything wrong with Cinderella, imo. And I like Snow White even though she doesn't feel like a real person that could actually exist at all. Aurora, on the other hand... I mean, she has a beautiful design--at its peak in the blue dress--but she's practically a cardboard cutout as far as character goes.

You think people will end up flocking to your favorite princess just because in order to defend her, you had to go and call X heroine a "slut" to make her seem better? Oh yeah, because I'm sure X fans will now like your princess waifu now, just after you insulted their faves.

And it's slightly ironic how the fans of the "Classics" love them because they consider them "nicer" than those bitchy/Slutty Renaissance/Revival girls (their actual words, not mine), yet so far their fans are the most hateful, bitter people of the fandom.

Who have you been talking to and where? I have read stray comments about how bratty the '90s princesses are on this forum in the past and then there's Angeldude..., but I don't think I've ever read anything like that before.