DVDizzy Forum

I'm a little disappointed to not see Mormonism on here. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or the LDS Church. But anyway, yeah, that's my religion.

Cheers,
JM

I was born and raised Roman Catholic, but I don't follow their views to the letter.

The Bible itself, while being a very inspirational book, was written during a time when women were subservient to men, religion was practically a requirement, and by people under the belief that one God was superior to others, and thus, those who believe in a certain God was superior to those who don't. I don't put much stock in the Bible except in common sense passages (i.e. The Ten Commandments, The Beatitudes, etc.) and parables with life lessons. It takes a lot of faith to actually believe that everything in the bible is true, and I prefer to think of the books and stories in the bible as...well as a stylized view of Biblical times. It's not necessarily 100% true, but there are elements of truth within the stories.

It makes sense that people shouldn't kill other people, and it's normally a belief in every religious sect.

It makes sense that honesty is better than lies and deception. I have yet to come across a religion that says "It's okay to lie so long as the lie doesn't hurt someone".

It makes sense that we should appreciate, respect, and love whatever Higher Being created the universe and gave us Life. But we shouldn't fear them, we shouldn't use them as a crutch. We shouldn't use the Higher Being as a reason why Catholic Joe goes to Heaven and Hindu Bob doesn't.

I'm against abortion, for the simple fact that life is life, and taking life is a sin (and yet I eat meat...so I guess I'm a hypocritical Catholic like everyone says we are...)

I'm against contraception because I believe sex is a sacred and passionate act of love that should be shared between two people who are mature enough and willing enough to own up to the consequences (pregnancy).

However, I have no problem with homosexuality in that love is love, regardless of gender.

Marriage in its simplest form is two people proclaiming their love for one another in the company of friends and family. Just because it's been Man and Woman for the past thousands of years doesn't mean it always has to be.

People often ask "Where is God?" whenever something horrible happens to them. My belief is that God mostly stays out of the way so that we can discover ourselves what went wrong, and our actions and choices in the aftermath determine if we learned from it or not. Free will is perhaps God's greatest gift next to Life.

I also believe that there's life beyond Earth. It's too arrogant of mankind and of every religion to think that a Greater Being created such a large universe only to have one speck of a planet be the only one with life. Perhaps on another planet, people are having the same discussion.

Escapay

Aladdin from Agrabah wrote:but what happens when an adult tells you that he's in love with a 7-year old boy?

Is that a serious question? Why would you ask that, except to say you are somewhat confused about what it means. We both know what this situation is, no 7-year old can return the "love" of an adult, and for asking me that, seriously, you are either insulting my intelligence or are very sheltered. I hope you were asking that non-seriously. That's like asking, "you think people are capable of breathing right(?)"; everyone who knows what's going on has to answer the same way or there's something wrong with them. So if you meant that question to be even the slightest bit serious and you still have it, rephrase it.

Aladdin from Agrabah wrote:So love is not a sin, but the question is what do we call love??? Maybe many more meanings are hiding behind the thing we so easily call love. Maybe things are a LOT more more more complicated.

That - I can agree with.


And for SpongeBob SquarePants - I already stated that I don't feel religion is very necessary in my life. And I have been through an incredible amount of tragedies and soonsoforth. My beliefs have remained the same as the day I founded them - I don't care if God exists or not, and I try my best to be tolerant of those who have more specific beliefs. That's all the work I'm doing

Escapay wrote:I'm against abortion, for the simple fact that life is life, and taking life is a sin (and yet I eat meat...so I guess I'm a hypocritical Catholic like everyone says we are...)

I'm against contraception because I believe sex is a sacred and passionate act of love that should be shared between two people who are mature enough and willing enough to own up to the consequences (pregnancy).

The absolute most hypocritical view related to abortion is that taking a human life is any worse or more serious than that of an animal. Especially since humans cause the most damage / bring on the most destruction, and therefore, are a much higher threat to the environment via overpopulation. But when animals overpopulate, it's okay to hunt, shoot, and kill them. I have already completely come to terms with my view on eating meat. It's a tradition with people who like meat, the meat I eat doesn't necessarily have to come from an overpopulated species or area of land. So when a human embryo is aborted, there is no cause for me to say - wait, ho - hey, that's not okay, that's much worse than shooting an animal with survival skills and a working-sense of it's own instinctive behaviors. That's why overall, I consider the termination of embryos and fetai (spell?) to be a private matter. If it wasn't the mother's decision, via- miscarriage, it's sad or tragic. But still, no one should take the right away from the woman, for any reason. That is one of life's most basic, elemental truths. Since we can't vote on forcing men to have or not have vasectomies, we can't force women to not have abortions. It's as simple as that - you don't want someone telling you what you have to do with your body. And that right can never EVER be taken away. No argument, no discussion - period. And no pro-life anything can mess with that. Some things must always be considered on some level sacred. This is that.

As for sex being sacred... Only in a perfect world. As for contraception, it's okay to be against using it yourself, but we can't prevent others from using it - again, we cannot control how some people live their lives. Sexual activity cannot be regulated, if it follows the basic rules of not being in public, etc. Sex is a private thing, and when people start making moral judgments because some people looking for sex rather than look for love and stable one-person exclusive relationships, we have an upside-down and improper society. Remember, are we that comfortable with people making excessive and hasty judgments about us without knowing the how and why. Some people just like sex, there's no problem with that. Period. Even if that sounds a little cold. I still happen to think sex is a warm and celebratory thing. And some people are slutty but still very good, smart, and decent people.

Lazario wrote:I consider the termination of embryos and fetai (spell?) to be a private matter. If it wasn't the mother's decision, via- miscarriage, it's sad or tragic. But still, no one should take the right away from the woman, for any reason. That is one of life's most basic, elemental truths. Since we can't vote on forcing men to have or not have vasectomies, we can't force women to not have abortions. It's as simple as that - you don't want someone telling you what you have to do with your body. And that right can never EVER be taken away. No argument, no discussion - period. And no pro-life anything can mess with that. Some things must always be considered on some level sacred. This is that.

So, I'm guessing you don't believe a fetus is a living person that should not be killed, either? It's true that a woman has a right to do what she wants with her body...but I believe that once she has a fetus inside her, that fetus is a person, and even though having the baby will stretch out the place on a woman's body that a baby comes out of, that's about it, other than getting fat and possibly getting stretchmarks from being pregnant. But I believe the fetus is a person, and it shouldn't be killed because it is a person. A woman has rights, but the right to LIVE overrides the right to SPARE YOURSELF OF A FAT BELLY.

The real issue, of course, is not so much about what happens to a woman's body because of a baby, but what happens to the baby. Women either don't want to, or can't care for a baby. That makes complications, especially with rape, which is why I definately approve of contraception, and the "morning after" pill. But I believe a fetus is a person whose right to life is above all other rights of the woman. It's a shame it's limited to women, because it makes me sound sexist. Of course, if a woman will die because of having a child, I'm fine with an abortion because it's the right to live I hold above all other rights(well, actually, maybe the right to happiness, but that's very complicated). It's just that in cases where the fetus/baby doesn't endanger the woman's life, the fetus/baby should keep it's life.

I thoroughly enjoy the discussions in this thread, and welcome anyone to open my mind and debate with me. Just make sure you're making sense and take note of what I've said.

Lazario wrote:Is that a serious question? Why would you ask that, except to say you are somewhat confused about what it means. We both know what this situation is, no 7-year old can return the "love" of an adult, and for asking me that, seriously, you are either insulting my intelligence or are very sheltered. I hope you were asking that non-seriously. That's like asking, "you think people are capable of breathing right(?)"; everyone who knows what's going on has to answer the same way or there's something wrong with them. So if you meant that question to be even the slightest bit serious and you still have it, rephrase it.

I was just trying to point out that, what through our eyes is extremely sick and abnormal, through a sick person's eyes it seems to be love, even if it's only from his side.

Hey guys, I know this is a discussion and all, but can we please not go into abortion. I think that is one topic that is doomed to be locked eventually. I have found that this is one topic people will never, ever agree on. Why? Because a man of science will not believe a fetus is a living thing until a certain point (when it has arms, legs, a beating heart), while a man of faith has no doubt that from the moment of conception this is a human body that needs to be protected. There is no middle ground on this, and I'd hate to see such an interesting thread get locked up.

Disney-Fan wrote:Hey guys, I know this is a discussion and all, but can we please not go into abortion.

I agree, we'll all have our views on abortion, but everytime we venture into a topic like that, people argue, the thread gets locked and it doesn't result in anything constructive.

I hadn't even noticed this thread yet.

same ol' same ol'

I have my own kinda of religion I guess. I do believe in God. I believe in a God who gave us the common sense to tell right from wrong. I don't need books, churches, popes, you name it to tell me how I live my life. I know what I do wrong and what I do right. I live my life everyday trying to do what is right. I believe that's what matters.

And when I look at all the religions, I feel it all comes down to that very thing. The bible is filled with rich stories from wich we can learn, but there's some ugly pages that put me off BIG time. That's why I decide for myself what to believe in and what not to believe in.

The most poweful statement I ever read and will continue to explain to people is this one:

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Ghandi

It's SO true. For me, that is the ultimate and only real truth. It sums up everything.

Anyway, with the exception of the usual heated discussions of some people, it's great reading about different religions, not attacking eachother.

Enchantress wrote:

Disney-Fan wrote:Hey guys, I know this is a discussion and all, but can we please not go into abortion.

I agree, we'll all have our views on abortion, but everytime we venture into a topic like that, people argue, the thread gets locked and it doesn't result in anything constructive.

I agree with both of you. I don't wanna see some the start of a large unending debate, that would become way off topic.

Technically I'm Hindu, but in reality I'm more of an Agnostic.

I don't believe in agnosticism---but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Disney Duster wrote:I thoroughly enjoy the discussions in this thread, and welcome anyone to open my mind and debate with me.

There's no "debate"ing with me on this subject. Just so you know. I also refuse personally to take this topic off-topic. My opinions on this subject have been well documented on at least 2 other topics, wherever they may be.

I'll just say, in a nutshell, that the only issue with abortion is that it's never okay to make a person's decision for them or to take that right away. Never. Regardless of personal beliefs, which are really only supposed to affect each person's own singular course of action.

It's truly that simple. You can disagree all you want, but we can't take anyone's right to their own body away from them. Abortion must for the sake of civilization always remain legal.

Lazario wrote:It's truly that simple. You can disagree all you want, but we can't take anyone's right to their own body away from them. Abortion must for the sake of civilization always remain legal.

Lol, you call what we have here a civilization? I'd say we're still at least a few millenia away from that lofty status. On topic with what you're saying though (and please note I do agree with you on the legality of abortions), people holding the opposite viewpoint would simply point out the contradiction when you said this...

Lazario wrote:I'll just say, in a nutshell, that the only issue with abortion is that it's never okay to make a person's decision for them or to take that right away. Never. Regardless of personal beliefs, which are really only supposed to affect each person's own singular course of action.

... that abortion is, in essence "making another person's decision for them" which, in this case, would be making the child's decision not to exist; which of course his or her future self may or may not go in for.

[quote="Lazario"]I voted other, because I have no religious affiliation whatsoever. And I've never been to church (). But my family has never been very religious, at all. Not even my grandparents were very religious, nor were my last-living grandfather's (passed away back in, I would say, '99) girlfriends (one of which married him in the very early '90s) very religious. That I know of. So that means I don't even know what my parents' religions are.

But look at me, talking as if any of this makes any difference whatsoever - almost every religion tries to tell all of you that gay people are evil just because of things they feel that they cannot change, so therefore if they fall in love = sin. That's why I believe more than anything, that all religion is basically false, unless it deals with actual love and recognizes psychology to be real. But I also don't do research on it - what good would that do? Once they know I'm gay, I get lectures that I don't deserve to hear. Why does tolerance always have to be political?

So I still see religion as something elitist, excluding, and just not necessary. Besides, I don't know anyone who has actually ever been comforted by religion. I don't doubt that it could happen, I know it happens and helps some people - but it's not necessary for all, or even most people, so that's why I feel it should be kept private and never used to make laws or to justify laws that deal with love and 2 people making a life together, whatever their choices and decisions are (and this of course pertains to children, home, and everything else - sexuality itself is not a choice - it's either an orientation or a disease, and it's only a disease when the person craves sex with a partner that isn't human or alive - it's that simple; desiring someone underaged isn't a crime either, it's just a very bad decision, and non-plutonic love doesn't necessarily include sex, so the other person has the choice to wait for sex until their young partner grows up a little).

I basically decide religion is not necessary because people tell us all the time God chooses not to intervene, ever. Can we agree on that? Because that irrefutably explains a lot. And that doesn't mean God doesn't exist. But, it does mean that if he/she/it/they can't save lives, they can't destroy lives, bless us when we pray at night, recognize our unions (civil or otherwise), or take any mercy upon us whatsoever. This does not mean though that I'm some freak who actually believes we should remove Christmas from Kids' school calenders, banners, decorations, and lunch menus.

I'm just another totally average and normal person that many religions take advantage of, ignore, or don't understand. I actually have many issues with most religions. For instance, the idea that women were made in the image of men or that a woman's job is to only take care of her husband and kids, even to the point where she practically neglects and abuses herself, not leaving any time for herself. I do know people here are smart enough not to believe that themselves, but many preachers still preach that way, and the books they read from still say those things. What image does that present to children? Why do children need to be brought up to believe things they can't understand yet? And the pictures in these holy books, pictures of women and blacks practically depicted as slaves - again, a bad image for our society and children. Where do we think the Ku Klux Klan got all their ideas that blacks are subservient to whites from?

So many people say - read the book. Like the Bible has all the answers in it. Like any religious book has all life's answers in it. Nothing explains everything in life. And no book ever will. No life philosophy will ever explain everything. So religion acts as a sort of mop, to clean things up, organize thoughts in a somewhat sloppy, makeshift fashion. The book doesn't predict how we live our lives, it only takes a look at us and comments on what it sees. So why should we believe it knows everything? Especially given all the differences between the world now and then? Every preacher is just playing catchup to the times. We listen to so many holy people look around and claim this is a sin and this is not... But religion can't understand everything. Religion is just damage-control for a section of the population who don't like to figure things out on their own.
quote]

Lazario,it doesn't matter if I say the leaves on a tree is green,your gonna come back and say their blue. Nothing anybody says on this board seems to please you. So I'm just going to stop trying to disagree with you about something because it lingers on. You don't won't me be to PM you because it takes up too much space. Well we're suppose to send each other messages time to time. Are you afraid of God? So you just keep running away? It's pretty silly that you don't believe that Satan is real too. Another lame exuse. How long did it take you to come with that one? No wonder your head hurts,you've tried to come up with so much stuff to shield yourself from God. Some people on here I just don't understand who live in this country. I often wonder what our fore fathers would think if they could see the U.S. now. They came over here to have Christianity without being ruled without a king. They went through hardships for this country. How do you think America started? On Christianity! If you read that Lazario,it probably doesn't apply to you anyways since you don't like the history of this country. Then we have to make up our religion just so it just suits best. Let me tell you folks,God gives us a chance to accept him. He's not gonna just strike us down if we don't believe him. That's for him to decide where we go when we die. He's giving us chances. The Bible,Church,movies,etc. People are just shunning the oppurtunity and doing what they want to do. People just want to go out and pretend there isn't and God and go with thier sinful ways. There may be stuff you like doing,just becuase your a Christian doesn't mean that you still can't do what you like to do. We are going through the end times right now,Revelations. Don't believe me? Look in the Bible and see! Jesus loves all of us on here! Luke,Aaron,Isidour,dvdjunkie,JustMyself,MickeyMousePals,castleinthesky,Tashiegirl and the list goes on and on! Stop trying to look with your eyes. Fill it in your heart.

AwallaceUNC wrote:Well, I voted for Protestant, but I don't believe in denominations. I'm a Christian and generally leave it at that.

That statement would describe me as well. I had a Baptist upbringing, and I attended a Christian elementary and high school.

Everyone, I apologize for starting to go off topic and getting into an abortion discussion. I suggest that the maker of this thread, Julian Carter, declare if this thread can discuss religions, debate religions, or just list our religions, to get better views of how much we have in common, and how much we don't(which is a good thing, differences that is). Actually, maybe this thread should have been in Polls and Games, if it was meant to be a poll and not a discussion. I think debating over why people should beleive in something should be in another thread. But it's up to Julian, I'd say.

Spongebob Squarepants wrote: Some people on here I just don't understand who live in this country. I often wonder what our fore fathers would think if they could see the U.S. now. They came over here to have Christianity without being ruled without a king. They went through hardships for this country. How do you think America started? On Christianity! If you read that Lazario,it probably doesn't apply to you anyways since you don't like the history of this country..

Give me a f**king break. Our forefathers came here to have freedom from the oppresion of having their religion chosen for them. Something you seem to be pushing for pretty hard. If Laz or anyone else chooses not to believe what you believe, leave them alone for Christ's sake. THAT IS WHY OUR FOREFATHERS FOUNDED AMERICA, to be free to believe what they CHOOSE TO BELIEVE and NOT BE HARASSED ABOUT IT.

Forefathers? You mean like Ben Franklin? He said "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Chrisitian assemblies." Thomas Jefferson is variously described as both a deist and a propnent of Unitarianism; he had great respect for Jesus's moral philosophy but he did not believe in miracles or in Jesus's divinity---and he was an absolute stalwart for the separation of church & state. George Washington supported religious pluralism and has also been described as a deist; the record shows he had far more enthusiasm for Freemasonry than any particular Christian denomination.

Then there's the troublesome example of the Native Americans---those people who were already here when our forefathers came to "settle" this land. As James Loewen writes, John Mohawk argued that Native traditions are responsible for the public-meeting tradition, free speech, and democracy: "Do you really believe that all those ideas would have found birth among a people who had spent a millenium butchering other people because of intolerance of questions of religion?" Certainly the Albany Plan of Union---the failed forerunner to the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution---owed its existence to the Six Nations of the Iroquois League. Those Native Americans occupied this land in the millions before being all but wiped out by Christian folk of European descent.

No, there's a LOT I don' t care for in the history of this country. The institution of slavery was supported by a lot of Americans who'd call themselves good Christians, as was the subsequent social philosophy that kept black Americans second-class citizens (and is still supported by various white-supremacist groups that find Scriptural justification for their positions).

Back to Jefferson. In his time there was a law in effect in Virginia that anyone brought up a Chrisitian who denied the being of a God or the Trinity would be punished: unable to hold public office, denied the right to sue or to receive any legacy, and subject to three years' imprisonment---this was at a time when the Anglican church was being supported in part by Virginian tax dollars. (I'm sure Roy Moore would love to see the same situation in my home of Alabama...but I wouldn't. Moore's accepted campaign money from people who believe that folks who engaging in gay sex should be subject to punishment by theological tribunal---up to and including execution.) In his <i>Notes on Virginia</i>, Jefferson wrote:

I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature.....Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make half the world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world.

Me, I'm a mutt. Born & baptized Catholic, brought up half Lutheran and half Jewish. Theologically I try to be very open-minded, although I find that the individuals in charge of organized religion have done much more to tear the world apart than to bring us together. Just don't go dragging American history into it.

I really don't understand how something so good and well-meaning as religion can cause so much trouble. It's a fact of life the world would be better off without it - as Escapy said, most of the teachings of the major religions are nothing but common sense and politeness.

Personally, I'm a rational man, and as a rational man, I cannot see one single shred of proof (any) God exists. But I can see suffering exist. True, most of it is man-made suffering leaving open the argument for the "true nature of free will", but not all of it is.

Was the Boxing Day Tsunami a result of man's folly? About a quarter of a million people died - for no good reason. There was no divine lesson to be learned, no inspirational bookend to the suffering of those who survived without family and friends. No ultimate truth for those left without homes or possessions. Like I said, I don't believe in any God, but if there is a God, I can see no sane or rational reason for him allowing such tragedy to exist.

As for the other suffering, there's untold suffering in this world we could stop in an instant (metaphorically speaking).

We could feed the poor - a fraction of the money the West spends on arms could feed the whole of Africa.

We could ensure everyone has clean, sanitised water.

Heck, we could stop polluting the environment and (possibly*) creating climate change which will only make the situation worse in Africa - through no fault of its population's own.

We could stop child labour, prostitution and slavery.

We could actually do something about all cruel and unjust dictators in the world (not just Saddam) - the fact that Mugabe is still ruling Zimbabwe and Britain and other Commonwealth countries do nothing to aid the former Commonwealth member shames me greatly.

Yet I see no Christian country or government, including "Born Again" President Bush doing this in anything less than a half-hearted manner.

It appears the main reason for people believing in God is that they fail to believe how something as complex and diverse as creation "happened". They say, there must be some form of divine intervention. But again, as a rational man, how can I accept this argument? If we are to complex to have been created without guidance, who created the infinitely more complex god(s) who shaped and guided our formation?

I am however, a firm believer in the Human Race. I think that in today's world, where ironically we seem more isolated and adrift then ever before, even though some of us live in communities of thousands upon thousands, we sometimes need a little push to snap us out of our safe, enclosed little world. But whenever major tragedy strikes, the human spirit has always ultimately triumphed, with stirring stories of courage, sacrifice and generousity. I don't need to believe in a god, because I believe in mankind, and I believe it will ultimately do the right thing.

* No matter what your opinion is on climate change (and I'll admit I'm not 100% convinced, but close to being), don't you think it would be a good idea to try and do something about it now rather than just endlessly debate the evidence? Even if the scientists are wrong, isn't it better to be safe rather than sorry when you're gambling with the future of the entire planet?