DVDizzy Forum

Sorry, but the worst part about your attitude is the “Grow up and take it” aspect. Not everyone has to take it and not everyone has to agree with you--and it doesn't make them immature if they don't. I agree with S2M, that you're just determined to paint them that way. And you’re not being able to see what’s wrong with that is what is bizarre.

Are you talking about me with that post?

No one in here has said anything bad or with attitude, or told anyone to grow up. People in here have only given advice, as far as I see.

Disney Duster wrote: Disney's Divinity and Slave2moonlight...if you thought I was snippy, tough, because I wasn't trying to be, I only spoke again just to make certain things clear. But you two seeing nothing wrong with the picture baffles me, like you're telling me the grass is blue.

Okay, let me get into this one on one, because it seems I've GOT to do it that way.

First, Duster, you (and everyone else) need to understand that the reason I have been increasingly annoyed with you in this thread is not because you gave me criticism on this artwork, but because when I politely rejected your criticism (because it was initially just about being "on-model", and because aside from Belle, you weren't anymore specific about all the "bad parts" you now say it has), you quickly attacked me with the "You need to learn how to take criticism" thing, and that really pisses me off, because you're implying that anytime someone doesn't agree with your criticism, they just can't take it or don't want to improve or whatever. I have been taking criticism for over 3 decades, usually very politely and with an eagerness to improve, including years under very harsh art instructors (the sort of thing E.W. was talking about; you can't understand this until you've gone through it). The same goes for SuperAurora here, just because I do not agree with every bit of criticism I get DOES NOT mean I don't know how to take it, nor does it mean I don't appreciate it. Despite what you think of my art, it would not be where it is now if I didn't know how to take criticism. I don't know what sort of volume of criticism you have experienced yet, SuperAurora, but eventually you must learn to weed through it. Not all of it is good, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. Yes, it can be very helpful, but it also can often be (even from teachers and professionals) a matter of them not liking your style, your subject matter, or anything else. Because Duster opened with an issue about being "Off-Model", it immediately put up a red-flag for me about any nit-picks he might have. Had he addressed the eye issue the way E.W. did, I would have been more appreciative and thought further about it. I can see what she is saying more clearly, and it was more polite as well. It still doesn't look "weird" or "bad" to me, but at least I can understand the issue a few folks are having with it, and it's something I can consider playing with if I decide to take the time. Since it was a commission and the client was extremely happy with it, I may not, because I like it too, but then again, I might.

See, there is a decorum to delivering your criticism if you want it to be taken seriously too, and with Duster, his issues on On-Model/Off-Model, his way of expressing his problem with Belle's eyes, as well as his attacking reaction to my dismissive response, aren't always going to come off well. At least Disney's Divinity seems to have understood this and that this is what increasingly frustrated and angered me, as it just tends to snowball with Duster, which I've seen in other threads with other people, and have experienced before myself. And, I'm not trying to be harsh on you, Duster, I have appreciated a lot of things you have said to me before, but sometimes you have bad reactions to people disagreeing with you, or you say things like, well, like saying that you wish I was still talking about my personal life here, because it was a "good drama". That's not very nice.

E.W., I appreciate everything you said and I agree totally, though I also can be my own worst critic and am not usually inclined to fall in love with my pieces, except on rare occasions. I am the type that sees many things wrong with something I do, and something new everyday, which is why if I can't see an issue that someone else does, I may take some convincing (which just means, explain yourself). Your explanation of why Belle's eyes upset some people was very helpful. I can't say they look weird to me. I thought they gave her sort of a trance-like expression, which I prefer to the freaked out look that is usually shown in a picture like this (the tiny pupils/irises, which I've used myself at times), but I am more interested in dabbling with it now if you feel it actually looks bad, because I have a better understanding of the issue now. My problem with the criticism I've received in this forum on this piece until yours is that it hasn't seemed very constructive to me. Comments like "it looks bad" or "weird" do not give me anything to work with, so they just come off like personal issues with the style the art is done in, or just plain insults.

Super Aurora wrote: First I'll give my opinion on the piece Duster was talking about. What do I think of it? I'm unfortunately going to be very blunt and brutally honest and say that it's bad. Duster point out the think on Belle but Ariel and Aurora also look weird. Even though I hate furries with a burning passion, your drawing of the wolf dude sleeping was much much better. That's why I thought you could of done better.

Case and point, telling me an artwork is "bad" and you thought I could have done better, this is so non-specific it is useless. All the girls look weird? Okay, where, in what way? They don't look weird to me, so unless it's an off-model/on-model issue, I'd be curious to know, or else there's not much I can do about it. It's rather unfair, in my opinion, that everyone is ganging up on me for dismissing critiques of this nature. E.W., can you help me with this? What do you see that makes this picture just plain "bad" besides Belle's eyes (which I still like, personally).

Super Aurora wrote: "it's my style!" "I intend it to be like that", or "People like/enjoy it.", if you can't draw anatomy correctly than figure drawing going to such. Art is subjective on metaphorical level yes, but even art has strong objective rules you need to apply with when drawing no matter what you want to believe. All those people you see with "stylizes" art or drawings, know how to fucking draw- traditionally like. Because they know or understand the fundamental rules they need to follow when drawing. The style in their drawings take years and years slowly over time for it to develop as their own. Mainly drawing them from various influences they have.

So that's my two cents on this. If you want be good artist and improve, start drawing......ALOT and learn. lol

It sounds like you are implying I am some sort of newbie. I realize, SuperAurora, that I probably am not as good of an artist as you, but as I've said, I have been drawing for well over 30 years, and I have been trained in all the fundamentals, so please don't make the assumption that I'm 14 or something and this is one of my first drawings. I do have room for improvement, all of us always will, but if I still had my life-drawing class sketchbooks, I could show you some rather impressive stuff. However, I don't care for hyper realistic cartooning. I don't even buy comics with that style very often. It's just not something that appeals to me. And, no, you do NOT have to follow any rules you don't want to to create art. You need only worry about pleasing the client when there is one.

Responding to E.W. some more:

In regards to my leaving the site, the main reason is, well, I did say it was because I have never felt a sense of camaraderie here, and that is true, but also because things seem to be getting increasingly worse with the general tone in the various discussions and everything, the fights breaking out (I'm no stranger to them myself), etc... I think, over the years, only the really passionate personalities are lingering, and that makes it a bit of a powder keg with all the differing but very resolute opinions, and I'm kinda exhausted with it. I mentioned decorum before, but I sense in the site an increase of personalities who have no use for it, and that's fine, but it is not my scene. I prefer things to be a bit more civil; Less angry, fewer attacks, people saying what they think but without being an ass about it or getting aggressively, sometimes passive-aggressively, defensive if someone disagrees with them. And I guess I feel usually that I am the one who gets ganged up on, so maybe my way of thinking is the least common here, but I would prefer to relax a little, get away from the stress of it, because who needs all that stress?

As for the rearranging of my social stuff online lately, in all honesty, this has more to do with my increase in professional status lately and my desire to nurture that by doing things like using my real name instead of "slave2moonlight", which is a pain to spell out whenever someone asks for my e-mail, ha. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming to be an established illustrator or anything yet, I mean, it is my sole income, but I can't support myself fully on it yet, but I have been getting more real comic gigs, and they have led to other gigs. Will this continue, I don't know, but I'm trying to encourage it with a more professional identity.

First: I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or sounded rude or snippy. As I said before, I was not trying to sound that way, or hurt you, so I would have thought me saying that before would have taken care of that, but since it didn't, I am apologizing now.

Next, you keep taking me the wrong way. I think I do sound mean or rude or snippy on here when I'm not trying to sound that way. And I don't think that can be helped. I'm saying it's a problem of mine that I don't know how to fix. I can't just tell everyone to take me the right way, and I can't act differently because I can't trun myself into another person and write stuff that sounds fake. Since some other people didn't have a problem with what I said, I don't think I'm that bad, but I don't know how to change myself because when I read what enigmawing said, it sounded too long and nice (sorry enigma!). Was it well written and beautiful? Yes. But I thought it was being unecessarily long and careful, and I didn't even agree with what she said about how the eyes should be improved! At least, I don't think I did...you see, I may not get what she means just like a lot of people here don't get my true intentions when I'm talking. It's like enigmawing said things I was trying to say, but she says it in a way everyone gets (this happened once in the religion thread too). This goes all the way to saying your romance sounded like "a good drama". I was joking to make you feel better about the romance as well as show you I was very interested in your life. You took my joke seriously, like I was amounting your life to just a soap to sit back and watch instead of take it as a real, serious part of your life, which was not my intention. Hopefully this will stick to my mind in the future so that I know those jokes don't work, but no joke or situation is the same so I don't know if that can even happen.

Now, I totally did further explain why the picture was bad. I said that it was off-model, but that it also looked bad, and that Belle's eyes looked like a Tarsier's, that they looked too big and creepy. That was totally more than just being vague about it being bad.

Also, if someone tells you something looks bad, and they say "the eyes", then that really is enough for you to at least maybe try to see what they mean and perhaps try to make the eyes better in any way you can imagine.

Look, everything in life, and art, cannot be explained. There's certain details of things that people can't put their finger on or just can't explain in words. So sometimes "bad", "weird", and "creepy" will have to do.

Finally, to address the whole issue of me thinking you wer purposely being blind to your own work and didn't want to take my criticism, okay, so you said you weren't but I HAD TO FIND OUT. EVERYONE HERE DID. How come you're yelling at me and Super Aurora but not at enigmawing who said the same thing but in my opinion she just said it a lot sweeter? And how can we even actually be sure that you aren't being blind to your work no matter what you tell us? If you saw the same picture, done by someone else, I think you would have a problem with it. If you truly wouldn't okay, I'm going to take your word for it NOW, but everytime I look at that picture I can hardly believe there's anyone who couldn't have a problem with it. Like I said, though, I'm going to believe you and take your word for it now, because that's what I should do despite my hard time believing it.

And to defend Super Aurora, he knows your not a newb to this but he too had to find out if you had learned enough drawing principles and stuff, because you are throwing them out the window as you so clearly said you didn't think any art needed that. I agree that in theory art doesn't need to have it - but when you're drawing figures that did have it in their original forms, these princesses, and you're not doing something more different, original, or abstract like a cubist Disney Princess picture, then the rules really probably should apply to this piece, that even includes a certain degree of on-modelness. I saw nothing wrong with what Super Aurora wrote.

slave2moonlight wrote:E.W., I appreciate everything you said and I agree totally, though I also can be my own worst critic and am not usually inclined to fall in love with my pieces, except on rare occasions. I am the type that sees many things wrong with something I do, and something new everyday, which is why if I can't see an issue that someone else does, I may take some convincing (which just means, explain yourself). Your explanation of why Belle's eyes upset some people was very helpful. I can't say they look weird to me. I thought they gave her sort of a trance-like expression, which I prefer to the freaked out look that is usually shown in a picture like this (the tiny pupils/irises, which I've used myself at times), but I am more interested in dabbling with it now if you feel it actually looks bad, because I have a better understanding of the issue now. My problem with the criticism I've received in this forum on this piece until yours is that it hasn't seemed very constructive to me. Comments like "it looks bad" or "weird" do not give me anything to work with, so they just come off like personal issues with the style the art is done in, or just plain insults.

[snip!]

It's rather unfair, in my opinion, that everyone is ganging up on me for dismissing critiques of this nature. E.W., can you help me with this? What do you see that makes this picture just plain "bad" besides Belle's eyes (which I still like, personally).

I'll reply in more detail later, but I'm usually better at showing rather than trying to explain. So if you don't mind, when I have time to take a better look I can do an edit to illustrate? In general the eyes are too large IMO, especially with the tense expressions of Ariel and Aurora. Bigger eyes can work well when going for something more stylized, but this seems to be more of a case of not quite knowing what direction to go rather than a personal style choice. I think Belle's mouth feels a little narrow as well. Again, I'll take a better look in a bit.

Not that it really matters, once again what's important in a commission is the satisfaction of the client. But it certainly doesn't hurt to listen to critiques and get a better feel for what others see in your work so you can continue to improve and grow as an artist.

The thing is that the mistakes in your own work are always the hardest thing to see. Now I'm not saying that anyone is completely immune to seeing their own shortcomings, because hell, I see crap in my own work all the time! But it's more like . . . I'll look at a drawing I did a few years back and think, "Holy crap! Why did I make the rib cage so big, and what was I thinking with that ankle!" Stuff I couldn't even recognize at the time because our artwork is basically a reflection of how we personally see and understand the world around us, and that's something that grows with our observations. We pick up on what we comprehend at the time and our minds fill in the gaps on the rest. For example, if we don't understand the anatomy of how a neck connects with a head and body, that lack of understanding will show up in our work. Now, we can realize that we don't know how to draw a neck and just wing it with the best of intentions, or we can be oblivious and believe we do know and that the neck we put down is good enough. Now this is just a generic example to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, but the reason basic foundations are so important is that we need that knowledge in order to break the rules. Gaining that knowledge and knowing where to bend/break, what to focus/highlight, where to minimize, where to put angles and curves, when to make straight lines, how to foreshorten, what proportions to make . . . it's how we develop our own styles over time. But without a solid foundation of understanding basic structure, anatomy, and design, it all falls flat. You have to have an eye for not only what is interesting, but what is appealing.

Not speaking directly toward you here, but in general, that's the mistake a lot of artists make. They see a particular style they like and attempt to emulate it, which is why we have a lot of crappy anime "artists" around these days. They want to draw in the anime/manga "style" but have no clue about the foundations that the artists they're trying so hard to copy have spent years upon years studying. Now I'm not in any way trying to dismiss your years of education & degree, or your years of experience as an artist. But I feel you could be applying more to pieces such as this one.

I mean, I know from what you've said before that you're not all that interested in doing realistic portraits because cartoons are so much more fun. I'm the same way. But I look at your more realistic work, especially when you capture the likeness of someone so well, and you somehow seem to have a better grasp of that over the toons. I'm not sure if it's due to referencing or what. You do shine with your own characters, especially Monty, but I get the impression that you need to practice more with the flow of simple shapes and overall design when doing toon art. Make long, strong, confident lines that follow the structure of the characters. Make sure the eyes are firmly planted where they should be in the skull, and that they're globes partially hidden by the overlapping flesh. Irises are rarely depicted as perfect circles (as Belle's eyes appear to be) because they reside on a curved surface and are usually seen from an angle, stuff like that.

I get the thing about wanting to get your real name out there, but with the timing I figured there was a catalyst. Well at least, there's always some sort of catalyst in my own life when it comes to that kind of stuff; something that "wakes me up" so to speak and makes me want to change an aspect of my life for the better.

As for Duster . . . as usual, he seems to have trouble explaining things; we've seen that many of the threads he's participated in (no offense, Duster)! I don't think there's ever any malice when he tries to clarify what he means, he just tends to reiterate a lot when he feels other members don't understand and/or agree.

I've learned not to stress about what goes on here. Can't say I've always been like that, lol . . . but I guess I've just learned to relax as I'm figuring out the priorities in my life. There's sort of a balancing act I follow; I'd rather stress about taking proper care of myself in RL than whether or not anyone agrees with me about the current colors of Beauty and the Beast (just a random example that IMO, people around here get way too worked up over). The forum is supposed to be fun! We're supposed to talk about fun things here! And it's totally ok to disagree on things. If people want to rip my head off for it? It's all on them, not me.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough for now. Here's to hoping this thread can calm down some.

enigmawing wrote:

slave2moonlight wrote:E.W., I appreciate everything you said and I agree totally, though I also can be my own worst critic and am not usually inclined to fall in love with my pieces, except on rare occasions. I am the type that sees many things wrong with something I do, and something new everyday, which is why if I can't see an issue that someone else does, I may take some convincing (which just means, explain yourself). Your explanation of why Belle's eyes upset some people was very helpful. I can't say they look weird to me. I thought they gave her sort of a trance-like expression, which I prefer to the freaked out look that is usually shown in a picture like this (the tiny pupils/irises, which I've used myself at times), but I am more interested in dabbling with it now if you feel it actually looks bad, because I have a better understanding of the issue now. My problem with the criticism I've received in this forum on this piece until yours is that it hasn't seemed very constructive to me. Comments like "it looks bad" or "weird" do not give me anything to work with, so they just come off like personal issues with the style the art is done in, or just plain insults.

[snip!]

It's rather unfair, in my opinion, that everyone is ganging up on me for dismissing critiques of this nature. E.W., can you help me with this? What do you see that makes this picture just plain "bad" besides Belle's eyes (which I still like, personally).

I'll reply in more detail later, but I'm usually better at showing rather than trying to explain. So if you don't mind, when I have time to take a better look I can do an edit to illustrate? In general the eyes are too large IMO, especially with the tense expressions of Ariel and Aurora. Bigger eyes can work well when going for something more stylized, but this seems to be more of a case of not quite knowing what direction to go rather than a personal style choice. I think Belle's mouth feels a little narrow as well. Again, I'll take a better look in a bit.

Not that it really matters, once again what's important in a commission is the satisfaction of the client. But it certainly doesn't hurt to listen to critiques and get a better feel for what others see in your work so you can continue to improve and grow as an artist.

The thing is that the mistakes in your own work are always the hardest thing to see. Now I'm not saying that anyone is completely immune to seeing their own shortcomings, because hell, I see crap in my own work all the time! But it's more like . . . I'll look at a drawing I did a few years back and think, "Holy crap! Why did I make the rib cage so big, and what was I thinking with that ankle!" Stuff I couldn't even recognize at the time because our artwork is basically a reflection of how we personally see and understand the world around us, and that's something that grows with our observations. We pick up on what we comprehend at the time and our minds fill in the gaps on the rest. For example, if we don't understand the anatomy of how a neck connects with a head and body, that lack of understanding will show up in our work. Now, we can realize that we don't know how to draw a neck and just wing it with the best of intentions, or we can be oblivious and believe we do know and that the neck we put down is good enough. Now this is just a generic example to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, but the reason basic foundations are so important is that we need that knowledge in order to break the rules. Gaining that knowledge and knowing where to bend/break, what to focus/highlight, where to minimize, where to put angles and curves, when to make straight lines, how to foreshorten, what proportions to make . . . it's how we develop our own styles over time. But without a solid foundation of understanding basic structure, anatomy, and design, it all falls flat. You have to have an eye for not only what is interesting, but what is appealing.

Not speaking directly toward you here, but in general, that's the mistake a lot of artists make. They see a particular style they like and attempt to emulate it, which is why we have a lot of crappy anime "artists" around these days. They want to draw in the anime/manga "style" but have no clue about the foundations that the artists they're trying so hard to copy have spent years upon years studying. Now I'm not in any way trying to dismiss your years of education & degree, or your years of experience as an artist. But I feel you could be applying more to pieces such as this one.

I mean, I know from what you've said before that you're not all that interested in doing realistic portraits because cartoons are so much more fun. I'm the same way. But I look at your more realistic work, especially when you capture the likeness of someone so well, and you somehow seem to have a better grasp of that over the toons. I'm not sure if it's due to referencing or what. You do shine with your own characters, especially Monty, but I get the impression that you need to practice more with the flow of simple shapes and overall design when doing toon art. Make long, strong, confident lines that follow the structure of the characters. Make sure the eyes are firmly planted where they should be in the skull, and that they're globes partially hidden by the overlapping flesh. Irises are rarely depicted as perfect circles (as Belle's eyes appear to be) because they reside on a curved surface and are usually seen from an angle, stuff like that.

I get the thing about wanting to get your real name out there, but with the timing I figured there was a catalyst. Well at least, there's always some sort of catalyst in my own life when it comes to that kind of stuff; something that "wakes me up" so to speak and makes me want to change an aspect of my life for the better.

As for Duster . . . as usual, he seems to have trouble explaining things; we've seen that many of the threads he's participated in (no offense, Duster)! I don't think there's ever any malice when he tries to clarify what he means, he just tends to reiterate a lot when he feels other members don't understand and/or agree.

I've learned not to stress about what goes on here. Can't say I've always been like that, lol . . . but I guess I've just learned to relax as I'm figuring out the priorities in my life. There's sort of a balancing act I follow; I'd rather stress about taking proper care of myself in RL than whether or not anyone agrees with me about the current colors of Beauty and the Beast (just a random example that IMO, people around here get way too worked up over). The forum is supposed to be fun! We're supposed to talk about fun things here! And it's totally ok to disagree on things. If people want to rip my head off for it? It's all on them, not me.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough for now. Here's to hoping this thread can calm down some.

Exactly.

Ok, I've made a handful of simple changes on the faces. Note that I wasn't going for "on-model" or any kind of specific style (including my own), I'm just trying to give the existing drawing more overall appeal. You can see that I was able to leave most of it alone.

• On Ariel, I fleshed out the cheek and redrew the eyes to be lower, smaller, and farther apart. I also moved part of the eyebrow and the hairline around the temple to better match the shape of the new eyes.
  
  For Belle, I widened the mouth, raised the nose slightly, made the eyes a tiny bit smaller, and redrew the irises/pupils to be smaller.
  
  For Aurora, I took in the edges of the eyes slightly (didn't redraw them), reworked the outer cheek, brought the chin up slightly, redrew the nose, and extended the top of her head.

You can see a more direct comparison in this gif (white background is the original, light blue is the edit):



The reason for lowering Ariel's eyes is because on a feminine character such as her, you want to make the eyes about halfway between the top of the skull (not hair) and the bottom of the chin, or lower. The higher you go above the halfway point, the more awkward and masculine a character is likely to look. This is the same reason I brought up Aurora's chin and extended the top of her head. I also set Ariel's eyes further apart, when they're too close together it makes that area of the face feel crowded.

Adding a fullness to Ariel's outer cheek gives her a more feminine look, and taking in Aurora's chin takes out a certain amount of angularity that isn't very feminine; angles like that are usually reserved for older characters, like Maleficent. Pulling in Aurora's nose also makes her feel younger and more feminine, especially at the part between the eyes (which now points inward like it does on the other characters in the drawing).

The reason I widened Belle's mouth was because it seemed rather narrow for it to be gaping so much to feel natural, plus it also felt off-center. Are you using construction lines, and if so, are you keeping the basic shapes balanced and symmetrical? The reasons why I reduced the irises/pupils has already been discussed. Always, always remember that the eyes are the most important part of a drawing like this, whether it be a realistic portrait or a simple cartoon with dots for eyes. If they don't look right, an entire drawing can be ruined.

Now this hasn't been brought up before but I'm also wondering what you're doing for shading . . . are you using the dodge/burn tool or an airbrush tool with B&W gradients? Doing so adds sort of a dull grey to the overall palette and can potentially zap the life out of a drawing that's supposed to be full of color and light. Your shading would be a lot livelier on a piece such as this if you alter the dodge/burn range or shade with actual colors using a more defined brush tool.

I really hope this crit helps you out and gets you to thinking about new ways you can improve upon your art. I know you want to make money with it, and so you owe it to yourself to listen to others, even the advice from people that aren't even artists (after all, non-artists are the ones most likely to want a commission). As you've said yourself, there's always room for improvement! I also hope you don't take any of this the wrong way, as I'm not trying to be nit-picky or anything. I know I'm not an expert by any means but I am genuinely trying to help.

Oh, and don't take any of the other criticism in this thread the wrong way, I know that both Duster and Super Aurora, although very blunt, have a great eye for things and are only trying to help. I'm sure that, like me, they only want to see you do your very best with your work.

Well, I was about to post a reply here, but someone is coming to pick me up, and you know I always reply with novels, so I'll have to do this later.

For now, I will just say that, E.W., your work is amazing, as always, and I'm just wondering how, if I would take the time to make your suggested changes on this piece, I am not simply going to be recreating your work, ha. But, like I said, I will respond to your tweaks more later.

I still have a lot to say to Duster, because frankly, I'm a bit frustrated that he is not (and in all honesty, I'm not sure anyone but D.Divinity here is) registering the fact that I have not been irritated by the critique he or anyone else here gave me, but rather by the fact that just because I did not see the point he was making after his initial post, he instantly went to the "you don't know how to take criticism" attack, which others supported, even though I was polite when I dismissed the criticism due to the impression I got from it.

I may have been a bit hard on SuperAurora though, but I will get into that later.

I feel somewhat compelled to make a few comments in the light of what has happened, so here it goes...

I can understand your frustration with nobody posting in your art thread. You may recall that I, too, like to draw and all that (and a link to my blog is in my signature), and that I created an art thread as well. Though it got a bit of attention when I started back in 2010, an update in 2012 got no replies whatsoever. Ultimately, I took it as an excuse for not updating it (plus, I really dislike the stuff from 2010 ). As I'm not a professional artist, I don't really mind the lack of attention, but I can understand how you may feel as a professional having your work seemingly overlooked. I think as Disney's Divinity may have mentioned, a lot of people would probably not post many comments in the art threads as they feel like they'd be repeating "that's great!" several times over to the point where it would read as semi-meaningless.

As for the greater forum problems, it's sad but also somewhat inevitable. I think lots of people view the Internet as so anonymous that they blow things out of proportion or don't say what they really mean, which is where the problems tend to start. A lot of the time, the people in the middle tend to fade into the background, which is a shame. Equally, I think that ultimately Luke and the mods have come to have less of a direct influence due to other commitments (deleting automated forum trolls, reviews, various real life commitments). Ultimately, I wish that things picked up a bit, but I still come on here as I need a Disney fix (none of my friends in real life are Disney-geeks in the way I am). Regardless, though, the fears that the forum is going downhill have always been there, even back when the forum was genuinely a friendly place. It's a shame that you feel like your posts are not valued at all here; I've personally always liked your posts, for the record.

I won't comment on your princess drawing, as I think it has sparked far more controversy than I think it ever needed to. Nor will I comment on anybody else's comments, nor give a lecture on how to draw, or how to take criticism. What I will say, though, is that I prefer your realistic work and your original creations, mainly as I've never really liked fan-art in general. Part of the reason is that I honestly prefer seeing new creations and new interpretations. The main problem I have with a lot of fan-art, however, is that the artists are essentially conforming to somebody else's style, and it's inevitable that inconsistencies will be encountered. Disney characters are actually harder to draw than one may initially predict. Heck, people complain that the characters don't look on-model enough for DVD and Blu-Ray covers and official merchandise. I have tried recently drawing Disney characters for fun, but I have always found it really quite hard and ultimately unsatisfying.

In all honesty, the best Disney fan arts tend to be those that are either extremely on-model and faithful, or go off and reinterpret the characters differently in a completely different, unique style. Examples of the former would include your Kim Possible drawings or much of Enigmawing's oeuvre, while there are too many examples of the latter to list here. Let me just say, though, that there's nothing wrong with listing Disney as an inspiration; I think that many people do. I would say that it has always been an inspiration to me, though I've acquired an equal if not greater range of influences over the years.

Anyway, I'm sorry that all this has happened, and if you do choose to leave the forum, don't stay away too long.

Enigmawing, that's great. You greatly improved the picture. Rather amazingly, actually. And I would say that you not just made them look better and more feminine but you made them more on-model too. Ariel's cheek and eyes are certainly shaped more as they are in the film. You didn't just make Ariel's eyes further apart, you changed how they are shaped in the film with the corners pointed toward the ears. Though I will say, Aurora's always had too long of a chin which is indeed more masculine, and she was the one I thought looked pretty on-model in the original drawing.

Slave2moonlight, I can't imagine what I did that was worse than what others did except you misinterpreted the way I said it, but if you must, bring it.

Wonderlicious wrote:Let me just say, though, that there's nothing wrong with listing Disney as an inspiration; I think that many people do. I would say that it has always been an inspiration to me, though I've acquired an equal if not greater range of influences over the years.

You mean you've found influences that are greater than Disney? You never mentioned a full range of influences, just one, Disney.

I guess I missed when you last updated your art thread, sorry. I was also going to say, why are you posting your designs? I'm only asking because even though I like them, if you ever want to see them become real some day, I would not show them.

Disney Duster wrote: Slave2moonlight, I can't imagine what I did that was worse than what others did except you misinterpreted the way I said it, but if you must, bring it.

Duster,

I am not trying to "bring" anything, I only want to help you out with some "constructive criticism" too, because the only reason I got upset with you was that you flew off the handle when I dismissed your criticism, and you went straight to accusing me of being "unable to take criticism." That was an attack on my artistic integrity that I'm afraid I do not appreciate, and the fact that others started chiming in didn't help my mood. It was your decision to attack me that ticked me off, not your criticism.

And the only reason I dismissed your initial criticism was because all you said was that:

"the girls are not quite on model. I'd say the bodies and the motion are really fantastic actually, but the faces...Belle's eyes actually look a little creepy!"

That was your initial criticism, and you were polite about it, and I responded politely,...

...and then you attacked me for not thinking much of your criticism, not even stopping to consider I might have my own reasons for that.

For one thing, you started with the on-model issue, which I wasn't concerned about, and that really raises a red-flag with me. Like I said before, I've been through the system, so I've experienced all kinds of criticisms, including those that come from folks who insist things be on-model, those who only like one specific style of art, etc... That's what I mean when I say you have to be careful and not "fix" your drawing at EVERYONE'S request. Some criticisms are very taste-based.

The other part of your criticism was that Belle's eyes look "a little creepy". I was aware of this because I felt they had a "trance like look", and I also have a thing for large eyes, so I get that reaction from time to time, but I do like large eyes, so...

So, like I said, I didn't get very concerned with your criticism, and then you responded with a lecture on my needing to learn to take criticism. That was very rash and unfair, it makes me look bad on a professional level, and it also makes me tune out anything you say after that.

You complain, why did I not get angry with E.W. for saying the same as you? The above is mainly why. I don't expect you to have the expertise E.W. has to be able to explain things in such detail, but this is all you gave me as a criticism and I've detailed why I passed on it. And it didn't help that later you were criticizing it much more, saying things like that I was throwing all my training out the window on this one. That is a strange re-assessment to saying, "the bodies and the motion are really fantastic actually." In fact, there's a good example of how fickle criticism can be and how one really needs to be careful of it.

I could go on and on, but I'm trying to keep this short, because I am pretty tired of this thread already and still intend to have it deleted (as I intended long before this discussion came about) after I copy E.W.'s great info. When it comes to toons, I am entirely self-taught, and I've never known anyone else with an interest in them, so her help is greatly appreciated. I am trained in the realistic stuff, even though it is not where my preference lies. Where I went to school, the option wasn't available, and there certainly was a bias against it.

Bias is one of the main reasons I have learned to be careful with criticism. It's also the main reason words like "bad", "creepy", and "weird" are not enough. They are never enough unless you are specific about it, and sometimes that is not going to go over either if the artist doesn't really see it the same way. For example, I still like my version of Belle's eyes. I like E.W.'s also, and they certainly are more "on model", but I still like mine too. In general, I prefer her other improvements, but I like both versions of Belle's eyes. I can't explain why. I just have a thing for eyes like that to a certain point.

You also ask why I was also annoyed here recently by SuperAurora's comments. Well, honestly, a big part of it is that, while I like SuperAurora (and I like you too, Duster, but you get very upset when people don't agree with you), I have never liked the way he talks about lesser artists who are struggling the way we all have, calling them egotistical because they get defensive sometimes or believe they have or are developing a style, etc... (I was a bit surprised to read E.W. commenting negatively on lesser artists too). We all have to start somewhere, and everyone's experiences are different. We all get bashed, A LOT, and it's not always the helpful kind, so maybe not everyone who gets defensive is necessarily egotistical. It kinda reminds me of when a guy loses a lot of weight and suddenly hates all fat people for not being able to do the same thing, as if everyone's coming from the same place and had/having the same experiences. Besides, you can catch someone on a day when they've had their fill of advice, and it hasn't all been good, or they're frustrated about other issues and the last thing they want to hear that day is anything negative. I understand that it's all to help your art, but because you are always in the mood for it doesn't mean everyone else is, and that doesn't mean they don't generally take criticism well or don't know how to appreciate it. But, the bottom line is that I just don't like to hear good artists talking bad about less accomplished artists, because that's the kind of thing that comes off as egotistical to me. And I'm especially not going to take it well when I'm being lumped in with them or other negative assumptions are being made about me, or I'm just being talked down to in general. The tips I appreciate greatly, it's that other stuff that grates on me. Though, I admit that SOME of SuperAurora's post I may have taken the wrong way, and I'm sorry if I did. I was probably a little frustrated that I was starting to feel ganged up on about the "can't take criticism" thing, because it was an extreme and unjust reaction, and I explained why, but it snowballed.

I gotta say one last thing too, because you asked. Yes, politeness goes a long way, especially with a criticism. You cannot expect people to even listen to you if you are not polite to them, no matter how valuable the information is. You can say it's there loss, and maybe it is, but no one wants to even be in the room with someone who attacks them when they disagree or makes judgement calls on their entire character, no matter who is right or wrong. You are not expected to write an eloquent post detailing the history of your own experiences, nor are you expected to have the knowledge E.W. does when you explain what you see is wrong with a piece of art, but you should be polite (which you initially were, but immediately abandoned) and you should remain polite, and you should know that someone might not "get" what you are trying to say, and they might dismiss you for that reason, or simply because they feel strongly opposite of you, and that's okay too. And it doesn't mean that is their reaction every time they get a critique.

Anyway, I'll stop talking now. But I will respond to E.W.'s help when I get back to Austin tomorrow evening. An interesting thing I noticed yesterday when I took a look back at the rough pencil drawing was that Aurora and Belle in that version looked more like E.W.'s than my final version. Not exactly, of course, I just was thinking about SuperAurora's comments and how they applied to a pencil drawing vs. a Photoshop piece, and I wondered if one issue might be that I'm losing some things (changing them, rather) in the translation, and that does seem to be the case. Aurora particularly came out differently than I had originally drawn her. I know two of my problems are that I still don't know Photoshop THAT well (E.W., I still have no understanding of what the "dodge tool" is or what it is for, I've been shading with the paint brush, lowering the opacity, sometimes with color, but sometimes not when time is an issue; I know that time is usually an issue for me. In pencil I work amazingly fast, but in everything else I work painfully slow, so when I'm trying to do something for a client, I am always in a bit of a rush, especially because I have to do it in spare time), and also that Photoshop at my sister's place lags badly. I draw a line, and it appears somewhere else, so that is a great pain for me. But, I'll go into this later. Not making excuses here, as I definitely needed some of the tips E.W. has offered up to me.

On the other hand, I'm very confused about the issue of the bodies. You have what Duster originally said, that he was quite impressed with that aspect, but then SuperAurora and E.W. implied that they looked bad, but without any detail whatsoever on how. There's that word again, because what the heck does "bad" mean? In all honesty, I still don't think my first version looks "bad", but I do wish it came out more like the pencil version. I do prefer E.W.'s tweaks though. I had noticed the thing about Ariel's cheek myself. Anyway, like I said, I'll respond more directly to E.W. later.

Oh, and Wonderlicious, I appreciate the kind words on the forum issues and your other insights are great too. As for the forum thing, I just generally don't feel like I'm a part of most conversations (starting to feel like I do at parties, trying to talk to people who would rather I stay away from them and keep quiet), or worse, I often feel like I'm a thread killer. Often, my posts seem to completely end threads, ha. Other times, they just get no interaction at all. In fact, this seems to be USUALLY the case. When they do get a reaction, it is usually a fight of some kind, and this goes back all the way to my first coming here, many years back.

slave2moonlight wrote: or worse, I often feel like I'm a thread killer. Often, my posts seem to completely end threads, ha. Other times, they just get no interaction at all. In fact, this seems to be USUALLY the case.

If it's any consolation, I have this same experience with the forums. I usually have to apologize for bombing threads. Overall, like Wonderlicious, I do hope you'll still come back to the forum in the future--if not all the time, at least once in a while.

Disney Duster wrote:

Wonderlicious wrote:Let me just say, though, that there's nothing wrong with listing Disney as an inspiration; I think that many people do. I would say that it has always been an inspiration to me, though I've acquired an equal if not greater range of influences over the years.

You mean you've found influences that are greater than Disney? You never mentioned a full range of influences, just one, Disney.

I don't think I remember explicitly saying here that Disney influenced my drawing style. Of course, it has always been an influence. The fact is, though, that I don't simply exist in a bubble where I watch only Disney films, read only Disney books, or go on only Disney vacations. I have a variety of interests and have a range of exposure to other things. When assembled together, those influences combined easily overtake anything Disney. Some influences will be instantly noticeable, others are merely points of inspiration. I've been meaning to post an "influence map" in the respective thread for that, so I shan't go into my "influences" here any more.

Slave2moonlight, yes, first I was intentionally polite, but then I felt I had to drop that in order to get through to you what was wrong with your picture, and in case you were deluding yourself.

Something has happened to me in my life that may make it hard for me to be more careful with my words, almost like I can't take feeling like I'm being so fake with extra nice words, or like it feels useless, pointless, unecessary. Because as Little Red Ridinghood says about the Wolf in Into the Woods, "Nice is different than good." I've talked about or hinted about what happened to me on the forum before. If that's what has made me get on people's nerves so much with what I said, I'm sorry. But I also wonder if my being blunt really was that bad. I sometimes wonder if its necessary to be that way in order to get through to people. So I really don't know what to do accept say sorry I hurt your feelings and try to figure out what to do the next time it sounds like someone is delusional about their art and I need to know if I should try to help them or just assume they actually like their art which I actually am very sure a lot of people would think is bad if it were professional work.

And I still, still, still do not get why I'm getting the heat for saying you can't take criticism. Because my original criticism wasn't clear enough? That doesn't make sense.

Disney Duster wrote:Slave2moonlight, yes, first I was intentionally polite, but then I felt I had to drop that in order to get through to you what was wrong with your picture, and in case you were deluding yourself.

Something has happened to me in my life that may make it hard for me to be more careful with my words, almost like I can't take feeling like I'm being so fake with extra nice words, or like it feels useless, pointless, unecessary. Because as Little Red Ridinghood says about the Wolf in Into the Woods, "Nice is different than good." I've talked about or hinted about what happened to me on the forum before. If that's what has made me get on people's nerves so much with what I said, I'm sorry. But I also wonder if my being blunt really was that bad. I sometimes wonder if its necessary to be that way in order to get through to people. So I really don't know what to do accept say sorry I hurt your feelings and try to figure out what to do the next time it sounds like someone is delusional about their art and I need to know if I should try to help them or just assume they actually like their art which I actually am very sure a lot of people would think is bad if it were professional work.

And I still, still, still do not get why I'm getting the heat for saying you can't take criticism. Because my original criticism wasn't clear enough? That doesn't make sense.

Um, yeah, it does make sense. How can you expect someone to take your criticism if they don't "get" what you're saying? And even if they assess it and find they don't agree, that still doesn't mean they can't take criticism, which is a pretty broad and serious accusation, in my opinion. It undermines the many years of taking criticism well that I have under my belt, whether you're aware of that or not. And my general body of work would look a lot worse than you suddenly seem to think it does if that were the case, so any artist here should know that I can take criticism, even if they see a lot of need for improvement. I don't think my work is perfect either, but without having taken critiques well in my life, it would be a lot worse, even this piece you guys hate so much, ha, and any artist should know that.

*sigh* Look, Duster, you did not hurt my feelings, so stop trying to put that over. And your problem is you need to stop thinking that being polite has to mean you can't be honest about your opinion; like in your first post, in which you were both polite and honest. But, you immediately jumped into the accusations due to my reaction to only your first comment. A critic really should try to take any rejection of their critique as gracefully as they expect the artist to take their criticism, and if they are going to attack instead, they can't expect anyone to listen to any further critique that comes with the attack or after. Obviously, just being rude about it and attacking my character did not help you make your point. Being more detailed/explanatory about it is what gets a point across, and that can still be done politely and honestly. If you can't get that from E.W.'s posts, I guess you never will. And I don't know what happened to you recently to make you like this, but I'm sorry to hear it.

Look, you are getting heat for saying I can't take criticism because you can't expect people to always "get", or see, or even agree with what you're saying on the first try, no matter whether you are right or not. That doesn't mean they can't take criticism. It is a case by case sort of thing. I cannot agree with any artist who believes all critiques are of equal value, and I've explained why in past posts, so I am cautious about them (to reiterate, there are sometimes personally taste/bias issues). Just because an artist doesn't accept a particular critique doesn't mean he or she can't take criticism in general. It's hypocritical, because it's just as egotistical to expect someone to comply with every critique you give as being someone who ignores them all. And remember that it's a lot easier to give a critique on a piece someone else has made than it is for the person who spent a lot of time and work on a piece to instantly "see" what you're saying is wrong about it or make the decision to "fix" it on the word of someone who has spent a lot less time looking at it. That's why politeness (not dishonesty) and explaining things in better ways than "weird", "bad", or "creepy" are so important, and why jumping to the conclusion that someone "can't take criticism" can be a pretty rash thing to do.

Slave2moonlight, I didn't think I was being rude or attacking you. I just was being more blunt. If you think I was being rude or attacking, that's your and maybe some other people's opinons, but I apologize for making you feel that way anyway. But that's all I can do. You could have asked me to explain more what was wrong with the picture, but you didn't do that, either. So you're not completely off the hook, mister. And I won't always assume someone can't take my criticism. It's a case by case basis. The way you responded made me feel like you couldn't take it. But now because you say you could, I must now think it was just my mistake, so that's this time.

EDIT: By the way, every person on here has always seemed to like you and have interest in what you say. I don't even recall any fights you've had with people other than what happened in the rant threa. Everyone here always seemed to like you and think you were cool. So maybe you just noticed the bad, or are just feeling bad, or maybe I'm wrong, but I know a lot of people liked/like you and your posts at least.

Wonderlicious wrote:I don't think I remember explicitly saying here that Disney influenced my drawing style. Of course, it has always been an influence. The fact is, though, that I don't simply exist in a bubble where I watch only Disney films, read only Disney books, or go on only Disney vacations. I have a variety of interests and have a range of exposure to other things. When assembled together, those influences combined easily overtake anything Disney.

So...you mean Disney is inferior to your other influences? Or everything together, including Disney, is better than Disney? If you mean the latter, that's a weird way of putting it...

^that's not what I read.