DVDizzy Forum

Disliking a race-swapped character is definitely not racist. People need to stop throwing this word around, because it's beginning to lose its meaning.

It's a complex conversation, in my opinion. I don't think there's anything racist about expecting a character to have the same race in adaptation that they had their source material, but after the decision for race-swapping has been made, this can also leave the window open for commentators to make claims about how it's not racist to say that a POC actor should not be playing a certain character on the sole basis that they are not white, which ...

While I won't deny that studios see inclusivity as a marketing tool more than an ethical necessity, I also don't think it's as simple as "going woke." There's a measurable dearth of POC representation. That's not something that Disney like invented to sell seats. And while I don't think that race-swapping is the ONLY way to combat that problem, I do think it is uniquely equipped to tear down certain barriers. It's one thing to "give black girls their own princess." It's another to say that this princess can belong to them too. Even if it opens certain Pandora's boxes for some viewers, I think there is a measure of responsibility owed by audiences who are well represented in the media to look past their own conceptions and acknowledge that this is bigger than them.

Anyways, I think that the racist stuff definitely contributed to this film's limp box office, but I actually think that the biggest factor was the way that Disney has herded its entire market base onto Disney+. As has been pointed out, the billion-dollar remakes were all before Disney+. I'm not even entirely sure what Disney's biggest theatrical sweep has been since launching their service. Avatar 2, I guess, but its theatrical design goes beyond even other "tentpole films," and I'm not even sure that most people really see it as a "Disney product" anyway.

Remake fatigue might also be an issue here. Even if you were only ever watching them ironically, you can only be burned so many times before you just give up on the practice. Which is tragic, in my opinion, since this is one of those rare remakes that actually stands on its own.

Oh, PatchOfBlue.... VERY GOOD POINT: I didn't realize all their billion dollar remake releases were pre-Disney+. I am sure that is a MAJOR contributing factor to the lower box office.

I'm not sure I would have gone to the theater to see some (if not all) the remakes had I known they'd soon be available "for no extra cost" on Disney+....

TBH, I think most people diverted to racism because it's easier than admitting that people simply wanted a character known for red hair to have red hair. For me a lot of the conversation around the movie felt like people co-opting it and talking around it to what they want it to be about instead of what it actually is because they know "racism" is easy fodder for character attacks. I'm not sure for example how you think someone is saying a Black woman can't be a princess or people of color aren't beautiful or whatever when you hear someone say a red-haired character should have red hair? And a lot of that crazed discussion was amped by Disney themselves as a defense maneuver, imo. It turns out that trying to mischaracterize people's expectations doesn't translate to a strong marketing strategy, who knew?

I think this film absolutely could have hit a billion or very close to it if Super Mario Bros can; TLM is quintessential '90s. Even GOTG3 from Disney made around 800 million a month earlier than it and Avatar 2 a billion last Fall, so it's not the Disney name specifically or streaming that's a problem here. They just messed up this film, from Ariel not having bright red hair to middling choices for Eric, Ursula, Triton, and Sebastian, too, to changing a song that didn't need it like "Poor Unfortunate Souls," cutting several songs and characters, cutting the undersea palace, etc. Thankfully the cast as whole managed to uniformly all do decent in the film which they needed to do to make it watchable since there were no perfect casts in the main roles to lift the movie like with Aladdin, B&tB, TLK, TJB, or Maleficent.

Oh, well, you could be right, Marce82. That is probably a factor.

And yes, sorry carolinakid and Vlad, it is not racist to dislike race-bending. I personally don't like it.

Hello!! I am a 27 year old woman and a long-time lurker here. I am also Caucasian for context. I just wanted to share my review though it's very long lol

The Little Mermaid by HCA has always been my favorite fairy tale overall even though I've hated the sad ending always where she doesn't get the prince. Similarly the 1989 TLM adaptation is my FAVORITE Disney movie ever since I was a little girl and always will be. Ariel is my favorite Disney princess and Eric is the best Disney prince to me and my favorite. As an adult he's still hot lol but he has a fantastic personality. They are my favorite Disney couple too.

I was very excited for the live action but saddened for the race bending just because I wanted Ariel to look like Ariel. I accepted the race bending and was still very excited for the movie. From all accounts test screenings reviewers were all saying the film was fantastic and Ariel's personality was still Ariel.

No offense to Halle Bailey intended, she is very talented, seems very sweet and is pretty. But her Ariel just didn't work for me sadly, though I suspect it was Disney that altered Ariel's personality so drastically

Live action Ariel felt like Ariel in name only to me. Live Action Ariel DID have sweet and kind moments but they were few and far between and her Ariel was just very sassy, cold, outspoken and angry/fierce for me

Examples include how she calls Flounder a guppy rudely (where 1989 Ariel says it lovingly), how she says she'd love to see human's hairstyles with a sassy smirk where I feel 1989 Ariel would have said that wistfully, and I felt her first fight with Triton was cold on her part unlike the original. Also it was strange to me that she felt so compelled to say "We don't have to be afraid of humans; I know that now" in the LA when 1989 Ariel always knew that

You either like 1989 Ariel or hate her, and I think 1989 Ariel was a good person with a lot of positive qualities her haters overlook. She also is one of the kindest and sweetest Disney Princesses and while I do contend even animated Ariel had sassy moments, they are few and far between and don't define her entire personality. In the live action sassiness and snark was dominant and the kind moments were few and far between. I also don't think live action Ariel had too much of Ariel's wistfulness and innocence either really. Not much excitement either. Like when she asks what the fork is, there's no bubbly excitement or anything like the animated film


But I suspected this from the first teaser trailer description that said Ariel is the most "defiant" of Triton's daughters. Also I feel they had to make Ariel a "girl boss" I feel almost and it just didn't work for me. Maybe it was Halle's decisions to make her sassier but I just didn't care for it.

Too, I also feel like 1989 Ariel is more sympathetic and likable all around (and had they cast a white woman with the same line deliveries/inflections as Halle/same script I would be saying the same thing) and I never truly BOUGHT that 2023 Ariel wanted to be human and loved that world to the point of pain. I also feel you get a better understanding of who Ariel is in the animated film. Ironic, right?

Anyway I DID love Jonah as Eric. He was just perfect. Very talented and good looking to boot. His song was the best hands down though I don't think Eric needed to sing. He just needed his iconic flute. Eric was the only character who I felt truly was kept intact personality wise. Though I hated Eric being adopted. I'm so happy Harry Styles turned the role down, even tho I do like him. He's just not Eric

But even before casting searches began I was REALLY hoping Jack Huston, Milo Ventimiglia, or Jake Gyllenhaal even would have played Eric. I do think all are gorgeous lol but they are good actors too. A girl can dream right? Lol

Moving on, my final nitpicks and likes:

Not seeing Atlantica the palace or kingdom was sooo disappointing

I would have liked to have seen more of Ariel's sisters

I thought Javier and Melissa did good as usual but Triton and Ariel didn't seem as close as the original and Melissa had some "un Ursula" moments like the part where she lost her potion and then meekly said she found it. I couldn't see 1989 Ursula doing that

Again, I hated Eric being adopted. In the original film he is an orphan but of royal blood and Grimsby and Carlotta are clearly his de facto parents/family. I liked Selina but the actress could have been a fancier dressed Carlotta instead and the film would have been better for it

I liked Grimsby, Lashanda the maid, and of course Max

Little Flounder was so cute

I hated they made Ursula and Triton siblings. They don't NEED to be siblings for her to want his power. It was wisely eschewed from the original film and it was for the better. Also it just makes Live Action Ariel dumb. Also how Ursula says "Pathetic" right out in the open

All the underwater scenes were very dark, cheap, and bad looking sadly for all the money Disney has

During PUS Disney REALLY couldn't have given Ursula a little magic bubble where we actually SEE Eric, the merfolk she is talking about, and Ariel as a human and then a mermaid?
I also missed the hands taking her voice and I was let down by Halle's voice relinquishing singing

I didn't like how they made Ariel's mom killed by a human. I don't consider TLM 3 canon but I've read actual pristine fanfictions that incorporate Athena getting killed by pirates into the backstory of the 1989 film that still keep Ariel's sympathetic personality intact and missing her mother desperately while still, yes, wanting to be a human even though one killed her mother. There seemed to be no emotion in the live action about Ariel missing the mom at all or nuance of grappling with guilt over seeing good in humans. They could have done a flash back of the mom or the moment itself of the killing, I would have liked that (like in the third film)

I was very excited to see the iconic dinner scene, the ballroom dance scene, and that birthday celebration for Ariel the one test screening viewer said was in...as well as the wedding dress.

Ariel should have missed a concert instead of a Coral Moon meeting

It was dumb not having Sebastian be a composer

I hated Ursula calling Ariel 'Red'; it was just annoying

I feel the film lost a lot by not having Eric find Ariel on the beach after she's first turned human. I love that scene and all land scenes in the 1989 film and it would have made much more sense than a nice old man taking her to the palace

I liked For the First Time but awkward placement

I felt production values were cheap across the board compared to other live actions. Sets, costumes for Ariel, etc. I liked her dresses and the pink boots but yeah...Cinderella (the BEST Disney live action!) this wasn't! Eric has the best castle in the Animated film and they could have replicated it exactly! It was so dreary inside and dark

I liked the land scenes in the live action but they were rushed

Flotsam and Jetsam should have talked

It was out of character for Ariel (I felt) to drop the mermaid figurine Eric gave her when she thinks he jilted her. 1989 Ariel would 100% have kept such a figurine and kept loving Eric even if he married another woman had he given her such a gift in that film.

Vanessa's actress did a great job but I thought it was so dumb not having her be able to lip synch to Halle actually singing words. I obviously get the unfortunate reason WHY they didn't have a white woman singing with a black woman's voice but still...then Halle could have played Vanessa too then in a dual role if they felt that strongly

I hated Ariel defeating Ursula. It was so contrived and dumb. It should have been Eric. In the 1989 film Ariel saves Eric twice. It doesn't make her weak for needing help at the end

Moments that should have had great emotional impact are ruined: In the animated film Ariel is panicked and sad when Sebastian says he will get Triton to reverse the deal. Here in the LA Ariel just gives him a glare when he says "You'll just be miserable for the rest of your life." The destruction of the grotto is sooo much better in the animated. Too, the moment where Ariel thinks Eric is going to marry her and then finds out it's not her is so emotional in the original. Here we get none of that, no Ariel kissing Sebastian in thanks and flying down the stairs. Here we get Scuttlebutt and Ariel rolling her eyes at her friends after all their help

They should have made it a wedding, NOT an engagement party, and Eric should have fully been under a spell like the animated

Parts of the narrative were just clunky getting stuff in from the original film (like Ariel awkwardly running up the stairs to stop an engagement party) and having Ariel use the "dinglehopper" in town during the tour

Her taking a nap right after being turned human was dumb. Also the mom not inviting her for dinner was dumb too

Ariel isn't allowed to say she loves Eric in this film because Disney is stupid

Ariel has no moment where she says she'll miss her father and sisters when making the deal. Not cool

Monstified Ursula/the final battle was so poorly lit you couldn't see anything

There was no emotion from Ariel whatsoever after, you know, seeing Triton DIE and then come back to life...like they couldn't both hug emotionally and apologize to each other?? Lol. She just didn't seem to care either way. 1989 Ariel you KNOW felt guilty about the deal without seeing an apology on screen but people just couldn't let it go...and this was supposed to "rectify" that bogus "Ariel never learned anything" rhetoric people always like to spew off?? Lol

Finally, Triton should have given Ariel a new dress, and they should have shown them getting married and then the final shot should've been a kiss between them.

Oh, well. I did like parts but maybe I'm just so disappointed because I wanted a faithful adaptation of my favorite Disney movie: Ariel looking like Ariel and having her personality intact, Eric not being adopted, Grimsby being a sweet old man with sass, it being set in a European kingdom, (Ron Clements and John Musker have confirmed the 1989 film was a European kingdom, and it's obvious)

Oh, well :/ I would have enjoyed a mermaid movie/possibly a new adaptation of TLM by Disney with Halle playing an ORIGINAL black mermaid princess and it being set in the Caribbean or an African country much more, complete with her getting her prince. They just shouldn't have called this film 1989 TLM in live action, because it just wasn't

I think Emma Stone, Amanda Seyfried or an unknown Caucasian actress would have made a great Ariel, too

And finally regarding the live actions Cinderella is the best on all fronts and the crown jewel of all Disney's remakes. The overall cast, the acting (Lily James isn't lifeless or wooden like many have said here, IMO, and I've seen her in more movies than just this. She has range and is talented), the dresses, the production design, the script...it's perfect. I honestly like it better than the 1950 Cinderella. And it's not boring at all. I would have loved all deleted scenes to be included EXCEPT the alternate childhood scene and The Mourning; I didn't care for those two. I loved the rest though

I would put TLM into the good category though I have a lot of issues with it; I did enjoy Aladdin, too, but that's not perfect either

I hate 2017 Beauty and the Beast but truthfully the animated BATB is one of my least favorite Disney movies too lol. I also hate Belle in the 1991 film and Beast; she's snobby and rude and so is he lol

I hated Maleficent but liked the sequel, The Jungle Book had good visuals/a good villain but I didn't like it overall, I enjoyed the human characters in Dumbo but wouldn't watch it again, and Cruella was good but not a remake to me

Also The Lion King was decent but the animated is better

These are just my opinions, sorry if I offended anyone LOL

But Cinderella is the only one worth owning to me. Richard Madden made the perfect prince and Ella is strong but ALLOWED to be smitten with him. She's allowed to say she loves him. It shows them getting married

No rewriting to make her a girl boss who would be weak if she loved a man...which is another reason why it's so good. It kept the characters intact and just expanded them

I think Cinderella goes the opposite direction and actually makes Cinderella more passive than she was even in the 1950 version--Cinderella being the only one of the Walt princesses that had any personality or bite to her at all. I do think James is wooden and bland having seen her in 4 or 5 different things at this point, but she's not the only one (MIa from Alice, Elle Fanning from Maleficent). Thankfully Halle Bailey wasn't that bad of an actor which made her more bearable when watching the movie, she just didn't really look or sound the part is all (as far as sounding more like Ariana Grande than Broadway). Oh, I would've loved Harry Styles as Eric! What a shame, but the actor here grew on me as the movie went along.

I actually thought Cate Blanchett was a better pick for Lady Tremaine back when the cast was announced than McCarthy was for Ursula when this film's cast was announced despite being a fan of both women generally--I was really only grateful it was McCarthy v. someone like Lady Gaga--and in fact Blanchett was the only reason I had looked forward to seeing that film, but I did end up enjoying McCarthy's Ursula more than Blanchett's Stepmother in the end. I thought the remake's version of the stepmother attempted to combine elements from every version of the stepmother out there into one and it didn't work for me; the trashiness of, say, Bernadette Peters' take just doesn't work with the elegance of the animated version, for example. I would've rather they'd stuck to imitating the animated stepmother specifically, Blanchett definitely had the elegance / refinement and gracefulness I associate with Walt's version of the stepmother; Lady Tremaine has always been my second favorite Disney villain after Ursula.

I do want the steelbook, but $40...! I get it's 4K, but jeez... I hope it might come down to $30 near release day (before it goes out-of-stock, since BB exclusives never last long or is it just me?).

Hey HarryPotterGirl! Welcome!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I actually agree with most of your opinions on the film.

I do think Halle comes across too sassy/aggressive at times, like during POYW when she says "I got 20"... her inflection and mannerisms read like "are you stupid? DUH".

I don't know who Jack Huston is, but your other picks for Eric would have worked... 15 years ago. They are in their 40s now, and really too old to be paired with a late-teens girl (the new movie doesn't state Ariel is 16, and she acts way older... which is also a problem. I don't buy that this older-girlboss would make such an impulsive deal with Ursula...)

You think Belle is rude and snobby??? EXPLAIN!!!

Vlad Sicoe wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 3:59 am Disliking a race-swapped character is definitely not racist. People need to stop throwing this word around, because it's beginning to lose its meaning.

The problem that society have right now is that the word racist is used for everything. Sometimes I am affraid of say anithing because of people. They were crazy and very aggressive against the people that didn't like Halle's before the movie was released but as you can see the movie didn't get much box office. I'm pretty sure that big part of the people that deffended Halle too much didn't see the movie in the cinema and they are waiting to watch it on Disney+. They are very hypocrit because they are deffending representation and race-swapped but at the same time they don't support the products that are doing it. You only have to see the percent of the afro-american people that came to the cinema to watch the movie. In my country for example there's no much black people and black characters are less popular here so the movie didn't worked so good as it could.
If representation is so important then go to the cinema to watch the movie as much as you can and show the companies how good is for them to change things on the movies. If you don't do it then don't cry on the future because all the characters are white.

Welcome, HarryPotterGirl100! Is the "100" in your name for Disney's 100th anniversary this year? If so, so cool! I am sorry this movie disappointed you in so many ways. However, I did enjoy reading all your thoughts, and though I think Halle was close to her own version of Ariel for some parts, I agree I didn't "feel Ariel" from her all the way through. However, I am so glad to hear another person agree Cinderella is the best of the remakes! I think it improved on the animated one in being more focused on the humans instead of giving half the film to the animals, as well as giving more attention to the love story, and actually making it believable and palpable with what they showed instead of a song and a montage! Divinity, I think Blanchett was trying to be a character who's elegance and sophistication were a disguise for her true, ugly, "trashy" inside.

I did want to let you know, HarryPotterGirl100, that actually Halle's pink and white dress in the end of the movie is her actual wedding dress for that film. I like it more than the animated one because it is more original than the Aurora-borrowed peplum of the animated one. Had it not borrowed that element, only then would I prefer the animated one, but the live-action one I have grown to think is pretty, too.

First post...I used to have an account here along time ago under the username "Jay". Not sure if anyone would remember but glad to be back haha.

Overall I enjoyed the remake. I thought Halle was good as Ariel. I disagree with people saying she was "cold" or "aggressive". Some of her line reads were a bit bland, but I blame that more on the direction. They could have done another take. Overall, I felt she captured Ariel's free-spirited, rebellious personality. As well as her kindness. And she has a lovely voice and sang the songs well.

Melissa was fine as Ursula. Angela Bassett would have been the ultimate perfect cast for me. But McCarthy was enjoyable. Some moments felt a bit too goofy. Most notably the transformation into Vaness scene. It should have been way more sinister. But when she was good, she was very good.

Jonah was very good as Eric. He was super cute. He and Halle had really good chemistry. I think the scenes where he and Halle were on land after her transformation were the highlight for me. Javier underplayed Triton it was OK for me. He wasn't bad, they took the character in a different direction. But I missed the intensity of Kenneth Mars' performance.

All the voice actors were good. Daveed Diggs was a surprise as Sébastien. His singing was fine, but I think he really shines in the speaking parts. Especially when on land. Aqwafina and Jacob Tremblay were also good. "Scuttlebutt" was..fine. Not the worse thing Disney's ever done lol.

All the other actors(Grimsby, The Queen, LaShawna) were also great. Special shout out to Jessica Alexander as Vanessa. She nearly stole the show in her small role and her expressions were great. I actually found her more menacing than McCarthy.

The singing was solid across the board. Halle was the star in that regard. Melissa and Jonah performed their songs well. I would say the 3 things I would have changed overall.

1. Ursula's transformation into Vanessa. As I mentioned the scene was too goofy. I LOVE the original scene it's so creepy with the laughs changing. I would have loved to hear Halle's evil laugh.

2. Triton turning Ariel into a human. Missed opportunity not showing Ariel's reaction..it's so adorable in the original.

3. Where was the sparkle dress? Max "fetching " Ariel was cute. But having her wear that tired blue dress was lame. It could have been such a moment.

Overall I enjoyed it. I'd give it a 7.5/10. Definitely one of the better live action remakes.

Jay999 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:33 pm

3. Where was the sparkle dress? Max "fetching " Ariel was cute. But having her wear that tired blue dress was lame. It could have been such a moment.

I agree. Their reunion with Max was adorable, but Ariel's sparkle dress has always been my favorite for the three seconds it's onscreen, and I would have loved to see them canonize that it was made out of sea foam the whole time.

I think that when they decided the last scene would have Ariel and Eric on shore, they thought it would just be double-dipping to have them meet again on the same location, so they restaged it to happen in the castle courtyard.

Anyways, welcome (back) to the crazy train.

Jay999 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:33 pmFirst post...I used to have an account here along time ago under the username "Jay". Not sure if anyone would remember but glad to be back haha.

Hello, Jay. Is this your old account? Our longstanding policy here to only have one account per person, so please continue using your original account instead of this one. If you have trouble accessing your old account, let me know so we can get the issue resolved.

PatchofBlue wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 2:45 pmTheir reunion with Max was adorable, but Ariel's sparkle dress has always been my favorite for the three seconds it's onscreen, and I would have loved to see them canonize that it was made out of sea foam the whole time.

I think that when they decided the last scene would have Ariel and Eric on shore, they thought it would just be double-dipping to have them meet again on the same location, so they restaged it to happen in the castle courtyard.

Anyways, welcome (back) to the crazy train.

I never realized it, but if the dress was made of sea foam, it is like a flipping of the mermaid's body turning into sea foam at the end of the original tale.

Anyway, I would think Disney would use what the original did so well, with having Ariel and Eric reunite on the shore sine it is a call back to when she saved him on the shore (that is where you meant they "meet", right? Because the other time they meet was inside a castle room in the remake).

Your "crazy train" comment is hilarious!

Sotiris wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 9:10 pm

Jay999 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:33 pmFirst post...I used to have an account here along time ago under the username "Jay". Not sure if anyone would remember but glad to be back haha.

Hello, Jay. Is this your old account? Our longstanding policy here to only have one account per person, so please continue using your original account instead of this one. If you have trouble accessing your old account, let me know so we can get the issue resolved.

Hey I was able to log back into my old account. Thanks a lot!

Welcome back, Jay! Yes, Angela Bassett would've been a great Ursula, too.

And, yes, Ariel's sea foam dress is her best.

I have seen at Instagram that Mattel has cancelled the whole doll's line. They are going to sell the dolls that are produced but the dolls that were planned to be released are not going to be made.
This was something that I thought that could happened. They created so many dolls in a short period of time. It is impossible to sell all the models. Live actions are products that people consume when they are released and they forgot the movie in a few weeks. They thought that they could sell live action Ariel as well as the classic one and they saw that it's impossible.
Another proove that the movie is not as susscess as Disney wants us to believe.

Thumper_93 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:48 am I have seen at Instagram that Mattel has cancelled the whole doll's line. They are going to sell the dolls that are produced but the dolls that were planned to be released are not going to be made.

Do you know what dolls were supposed to come out but never did?