DVDizzy Forum

ichabod wrote:A lot of you seem to be criticising this wave because the restoration is not up to scratch, and all I would like to ask is "Have any of you actualy been through the previous waves recently in their entirity?"

Actually, yes. Just this week I watched through Mickey in B&W V1+V2 and enjoyed them. I'm a bit more forgiving when it comes to black and white films, so while I agree that there are a lot of scratches, dust and dirt, I think that despite that they are still very sharp and clear. I suppose with B&W film it's also a bit more difficult to restore simply because it's more difficult to discern what is an artifact and what is actually part of the animation. Pretty much the only thing you can reasonably do then is run some kind of digital process to remove the noise, also known as DVNR. (See here why you don't want that and why we should be happy Disney doesn't seem use it.)

Also, a thing to remember is that these cartoons look very grainy, and they should, because the grain is an inherent part of the physical film unlike scratches and dirt, and should therefore not be confused with the latter. My preference is that they not try to remove it either lest they end up at the DVNR mess linked to above. They use more elaborate and complicated processes to remove it from the PEs, but as has been said this is time-consuming and is not really feasible to do for all of the shorts. The PEs have actually also been criticised for looking "unnatural" after having the grain removed, as many people (including me) feel that restoring cartoons should not make them look like new, completely clean and sterile digital animation, but make them look like they did when they were first shown (i.e. trying to undo the deterioration of time.)

So anyway, for the colour cartoons in the previous sets, I have to disagree as I think most of them look very good. I mentioned in a post before that there were some shorts that didn't look as good but they were pretty few and far between. Here's a little comparison:

Shot from Elmer Elephant - Notice, while grainy, how vibrant and clear the colours are and how the entire picture comes across as very crisp.

Shot from a Three Little Pigs short on the SS set - There is just no comparison to the previous shot. Uneven brightness and colours, video artifacts around the rose and back of the hair, almost looks like a cross-hatching pattern over the entire picture. Very muted and dull, just doesn't have any definition.

Here are the intro cards for the same shorts:
Elmer Elephant
Three Little Pigs

Notice how dark the second shot is and the composite video artifacts around the letters (the annoying dot-pattern.)

The problem with these new sets as I see it is not necessarily that they have more dirt and other such artifacts, but that many shorts seem to look a lot closer to my second example than my first, mainly affecting how the colour, brightness and contrast in the overall picture comes across. Probably due to them using inferior video masters and similar, instead of going to the original source. (Someone also mentioned earlier that many shorts on the previous sets probably were video masters too, which I have to disagree on as well because the difference is huge and it's pretty clear that most of the ones that look like Elmer are from film.)

Pyoko, everything on a DVD is from a video master. Cus DVD is a video.

The main difference is the quality of the elements (the art, the program) used to generate those video masters and of course the video master itself and ancilliary equipment.

Originally, Disney short X was done like this on its theatrical release:

Technicolor RGB sequential b/w negative -> Technicolor CYM dye IB print


Now the best DVD would be made from a video master done this way:

Technicolor RGB sequential b/w negative -> Digital RGB Video Master

But a video master can be made with several intermediary steps and of course not be Digital RGB, like lets say a VHS tape made from the air

But this discussion will have to continue later cus i wanna discuss "specs" with Amazing Babe over the phone

Later!

2099net wrote:

Pluto Region1 wrote: I would think that over time if they don't attend to these films, that the damage would become permanent, would it not? (a question for Deathie here?)

I'm sure Disney are working on restoring the cartoons, but as I said before, if you take Bambi as an example, it would take well over 6 years (probably closer to 10) to restore all the animated contents of each wave to the same standard. It's simply not practical to expect it.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it's my opinion that you're trying way too hard to defend Disney on this. Even Leonard Maltin is on our side in this.

I agree. We should expect quality from the treasures series. If Disney doesn't respect the material, who will?

TM2-Megatron wrote:

2099net wrote: I'm sure Disney are working on restoring the cartoons, but as I said before, if you take Bambi as an example, it would take well over 6 years (probably closer to 10) to restore all the animated contents of each wave to the same standard. It's simply not practical to expect it.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it's my opinion that you're trying way too hard to defend Disney on this. Even Leonard Maltin is on our side in this.

I'm defending Disney because I'm sick of reading so much negativity. Not just about the Treasures, but virtually everything. It seems Disney can do no right these days.

I don't know. I just look at threads like this, and ever since wave 3 there seems to be nothing but moaning. Hardly anybody seems actually happy that Disney's is making such material avaliable. Instead all we seem to get is constant complaints about 'cheapening' the line, which seems to grow more and more each year. I bet Disney rue the day they put them in tins, as just like every other Disney DVD release, people seem more concerned about the tins, or the slipcover, or the art than the actual contents. I'm sure everyone would be happier is the damn tins never existed.

People are just to quick to see a conspiracy around every corner. And most of the conspiracies seem to involve "swindling" the collectors. Never mind that the price has remained constant in the face in inflation for five years. Never mind the fact that many people here delight in seeking out the lowest price they can for the treasures each time they are released. If Disney are becoming cheap, what does that make "us", always eager to grab a bargain and spend as little of OUR money as possible on the products?

These are niche products, and not something big mainstream businesses spend time and money on doing these days as a rule. The days of LaserDiscs are over. Releases like this on LaserDisc would cost approx three times the cost of the DVD tins we're getting now, and the mastering would be unlikely to be any better.

Do you think a format change would have any effect on the Treasures?

I don't think so. They've been doing restoration on a lot of this material. And it's already at a pretty high level. The video quality for DVDs. And they're, like all the studios, they're looking ahead to high definition. I think it will be fine.

He does however say "a lot of this material" indicating that there are perhaps some content which hasn't been restored. Either because it's further down the queue, or maybe elements are more degraded than others, and require extra work. He also says "DVD quality", which, is the same as old LD quality, meaning older transfers may have been used. Finally "looking ahead to High-Defination" is a vague statement. Does it mean the shorts are being remastered again in Hi-Def like the features are, or that Disney are planning to do Hi-Def restorations in the near future?

I don't think its likely full-scale restorations could have, or have been done on most of the Treasures contents in past waves. Not to Warner Brother's standard on their Looney Tunes sets, or Disney own standards on films like Bambi. Previous waves haven't had this quality in the past.

The best that could be done would be some digital filtering afterwards, and maybe some manual painting to remove exessive debris on the frame. I think its likely this was done for the bulk of the new 2005 material. Most of it done on transfers already made for previous home video releases or television showings. Basically, I think the bulk of previous waves have been existing transfers with additional digital "magic".

What went wrong this year? Who can say. It could just be the factor that a lot of the "rarities" are, well, rare, and don't have recent transfers available, it could be, as Maltin suggests, a simple mistake was made and the wrong transfers were picked, or it could be a combination of both.

If the wrong transfers have been used, it wouldn't be the first time such a mistake was made, but nobody was instantly screaming at Columbia or Warners that they were being "cheap". Sometimes, despite the best of efforts mistakes happen.

Star Wars has the surrounds reversed on the music tracks, but no one is calling Lucas cheap, even though (to my knowledge) he never issued a recall or replacement. (In fact, Lucasfilm stated it was an "artistic decision"). More people were loyal to Lucas and Star Wars, and the DVD was much more eagerly awaited, but he still failed them.

The Treasures may be marketed as a collectors premium product, but they aren't priced as such. Even stuff like the 3 disc Terminal or 2 disc Ray DVD released at a higher price point. No matter what Disney says in its press releases.

I doubt the limited run Treasures are high on Disney's management's priorities, when DVDs like Cinderella and Bambi sell millions on their first week of release, and this whole wave of Treasures is capped at sales of 500,000 throughout it's entire lifetime.

So yes, Ultimately it does come down to money. But when you're picking up your 3hr 50m Chronological Donald V2 or 6hr, 13m Rarities for $28 or less, just think about how much of that money is actually being put towards the production of the DVDs.

That's exactly what I have been trying to say. Thanks for your posting Netty, it is concise and to the point.

I think we all need to get off this extreme ciritcism venture we are on. Sure we can voice our disappointment in the product, but we don't have to carry it to the point that we want to overthrow the powers that be at Disney.

Sometimes you need to consider that maybe they didn't have the proper amount of time to re-master every frame of every short.

I must be easy to please, because I don't see what all the whining is about. "No Sail" looks good to me, and I have gone through all the WDT's that I own, which is all but the "Tomorrowland" one, and I can see minute differences in the quality of some of the 'toons, but not to the extent that I want to get my money back because I feel cheated.

I think that we should all be happy that we are getting the product, some of these shorts haven't seen the light of day in years, if at all. If these were recently produced shorts and we got the kind of product we got with these current releases then we would have something to scream about.

As Netty said, no one threatened to blow up ILM or Lucasfilm because of the sound screw-up in Star Wars.

Let's all just lighten up and appreciate what we have, and know that there is a lot more out there to come to DVD. If we start screaming and hollering too much, they might just close up shop and say to heck with putting this out, no one appreciates it for what it is.

2099net wrote:I'm defending Disney because I'm sick of reading so much negativity. Not just about the Treasures, but virtually everything. It seems Disney can do no right these days.

I respect alot of what Disney's done, but I'm not going to apologize when I don't bow down and worship the company; even when they do things I don't approve of.

I compliment their work when it's appropriate to do so, and I'll damn well criticize them when I think they deserve it. If they are involved in a continuous restoration project of their old shorts, which makes logical sense to me, then they should've waited on releasing this wave. Even if you can't bring yourself to criticize the lack of restoration on the Donald and Rarities set, you should at least be skeptical about the lack of anamorphically enhanced transfers on the rarities; when is pretty standard these days.

deathie mouse wrote:Pyoko, everything on a DVD is from a video master. Cus DVD is a video.

Yeah, you are right. Of course by "video masters" I meant where the films were scanned and converted into analogue video 15 years ago and then converted into digital, instead of re-scanning them directly into the digital domain.

As for the situation you can basically view it in two ways; either sit down and take it, or try to make a difference. If you are perfectly happy with the sets then good for you, but I don't think everyone else has to be forced to do so as well. And because the quality isn't good doesn't mean one can't be happy the shorts are released, just that the experience could have been so much better. Disney's done a lot of questionable stuff as of late but the Treasures line was one thing that they really did right, until now, which is what I think is so disappointing. (Have to agree though that the price is not really reasonable compared, but I'd be willing to pay a lot more than the $30 they ask for if they could do them like before.)

But I'm going to take dvdjunkie's advice and cool down some. Going to start on Mickey Mouse in Living Colour V1 now and be happy with the knowledge that in 10 years, when they release complete sets of all the cartoons in HD, these arguments will all (hopefully) be moot.

2099net wrote:I bet Disney rue the day they put them in tins, as just like every other Disney DVD release, people seem more concerned about the tins, or the slipcover, or the art than the actual contents. I'm sure everyone would be happier is the damn tins never existed.

You could have a point there, but the most serious criticism in this case actually seems to be about the quality of the contents, not the packaging.

2099net wrote:Never mind that the price has remained constant in the face in inflation for five years. Never mind the fact that many people here delight in seeking out the lowest price they can for the treasures each time they are released. If Disney are becoming cheap, what does that make "us", always eager to grab a bargain and spend as little of OUR money as possible on the products?

2099net wrote:The Treasures may be marketed as a collectors premium product, but they aren't priced as such. Even stuff like the 3 disc Terminal or 2 disc Ray DVD released at a higher price point. No matter what Disney says in its press releases.

You're right and that's too bad. I certainly wouldn't mind paying more if they'd just keep consistently high quality. If these are indeed "niche products", why not?

It's hard sometimes to tell the seriousness of people's aggression and whether or not it's well founded in fact. I'll just speak for myself and say that I'm sure I'll be quite happy with WDT wave 5 (haven't received them yet). I'm not angry. But I still won't say that it's perfectly all right to drop the level of quality they started with. Hope they'll pay attention to that hereafter.

TM2-Megatron wrote:

2099net wrote:I'm defending Disney because I'm sick of reading so much negativity. Not just about the Treasures, but virtually everything. It seems Disney can do no right these days.

I respect alot of what Disney's done, but I'm not going to apologize when I don't bow down and worship the company; even when they do things I don't approve of.

I compliment their work when it's appropriate to do so, and I'll damn well criticize them when I think they deserve it. If they are involved in a continuous restoration project of their old shorts, which makes logical sense to me, then they should've waited on releasing this wave. Even if you can't bring yourself to criticize the lack of restoration on the Donald and Rarities set, you should at least be skeptical about the lack of anamorphically enhanced transfers on the rarities; when is pretty standard these days.

I don't think anybody, and certainly not Netty, said anything about bowing down and worshipping anybody. Instead, he - and those of us that would support his opinion - are rather arguing against all the negativity for something that most fans would appreciate having access to.

The point was Disney seems damned to criticism when they do, and damned when they don't. You said that you would rather see them fully restored for another wave than have them as they are for this wave. That's all well and good, but then Disney would get just as many complaints from people who have to wait years between Waves in order to have the quality that you would see fit to put in your player. From what I have seen so far, these discs are perfectly acceptable for vintage material that you can't get anywhere else.

So what is it you all want? Several years worth of gaps between treasures? $25 price points? High quality footage? Highly collectable tins? Because you can't have all those things. Nobody said Disney should be worshipped for their efforts, but a little gratitude for opening their Vaults for just over $20 a pop with very little benefit to them. As was pointed out, any given title is limited to 150,000 sales or so, as opposed to the millions of copies of Bambis that can be sold.

Loomis wrote:I don't think anybody, and certainly not Netty, said anything about bowing down and worshipping anybody. Instead, he - and those of us that would support his opinion - are rather arguing against all the negativity for something that most fans would appreciate having access to.

So one of the problems here seems to be that some people overdo their criticism - and then others overdo it when they "counter-attack". Discussions sometimes turn into unnecessarily "long and winding roads" this way. Shouting out loud isn't always the optimal way to make a point...

Lars Vermundsberget wrote:So one of the problems here seems to be that some people overdo their criticism - and then others overdo it when they "counter-attack". Discussions sometimes turn into unnecessarily "long and winding roads" this way. Shouting out loud isn't always the optimal way to make a point...

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING!!!!?!!??!




(In other words, I agree with you completely ) I think many people jump on here with their argument already in hand, failing to read what has come before. Most of the time people attack a specific statement, rather than the thread of the argument, simply by not reading what has been said before. (See I said it twice in case people who are skimming missed it the first time).

The crux of this thread seems to be that some people are upset over the apparent mistreatment of the quality of THIS wave of Treasures, while the counter-argument is that we can't have 4 Treasure titles every year and STILL maintain a perfect standard for $20 very limited editions.

We all up to speed now?

So lets stop the fussing and the fighting and get down to some loving.

So what is it you all want? Several years worth of gaps between treasures? $25 price points? High quality footage? Highly collectable tins? Because you can't have all those things. Nobody said Disney should be worshipped for their efforts, but a little gratitude for opening their Vaults for just over $20 a pop with very little benefit to them. As was pointed out, any given title is limited to 150,000 sales or so, as opposed to the millions of copies of Bambis that can be sold.

I'm grateful for having them, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to comment negatively when what I see doesn't match the quality of past releases. I'd gladly wait a bit longer between Waves (sans complaints, from me at least), and be willing to pay a bit more per tin if it meant getting all the shorts in the video quality we've become accustomed to from Waves 1-4.

TM2-Megatron wrote:I'm grateful for having them, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to comment negatively when what I see doesn't match the quality of past releases. I'd gladly wait a bit longer between Waves (sans complaints, from me at least), and be willing to pay a bit more per tin if it meant getting all the shorts in the video quality we've become accustomed to from Waves 1-4.

Once again, see the opinion stated above. NOBODY is saying you CAN'T comment negatively. That seems to be the entire point of the Internet.

They are, however, suggesting that if you are going to maintain a negative stance towards the current wave of Treasures, there are certain factors that need to be considered. They are also saying that not everybody is as patient as you. If your complaint is heeded, and more time is spent on the Treasures, there will be complaints that the Treasures are taking too long (not necessarily by you).

Indeed, this is the crux of the counter-argument: in order for your own complaint to be remedied adequately, a new set of complaints are ready to take their place. Internet fans never seem to be satisfied with the results, and THAT is what is being commented on.

However, far be it for me to defend someone else's comments. I just thought I'd chip in to say that nobody is attacking a single opinion, but rather the negativity that seems to surround these releases.

Indeed, this is the crux of the counter-argument: in order for your own complaint to be remedied adequately, a new set of complaints are ready to take their place. Internet fans never seem to be satisfied with the results, and THAT is what is being commented on.

True, but those complaints would be shorter lived than the actual complaints Wave 5 has generated. You can only complain about a 6 month delay for 6 months; but people can complain about poor video quality forever, or until it's re-released properly remastered on Blu-Ray. And after the first delayed Wave, those who buy the Treasure would realize why the slightly longer wait is necessary. Either that, or Disney can compromise by focusing exclusively on the shorts and material like the Rarities tin had, and hold off on releases like The Adventures of Spin & Marty & Elfego Baca and The Swamp Fox, which admittedly generate less interest.

TM2-Megatron wrote:

2099net wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion, but it's my Even Leonard Maltin is on our side in this.

I am new to this type of heavy discourse at UD, but it seems to me that quite a few agree that there is something going on with the quality and that this is a concern. Others have pointed out there may be very good reasons for why there is a difference in quality, like the type of masters they used, or what the budget is for this type of thing... I think all anyone here is suggesting, of those that are upset with the quality, is perhaps maybe we can inquire with Disney as to what is going on? Everyone agrees that we are more than grateful to have the releases in the first place but certainly there is no harm in saying to Disney, "hey we notice there is some difference in quality from one Treasure to the next or from one cartoon to the next on Wave 5.... is there some explanation we can get about this?"

This seems to me to be a good compromise. I'm sure those of you who are "ok" with the quality would not object to gentle inquiry with Disney on this issue? I think that is all that is necessary. We can't do much else, after all, other than ask....

My feeling is that they should make the restorations of their classic material top-notch but they may be waiting to spend the money to restore for HD as someone here suggested.... who knows. I don't see the harm in asking for an explanation.

As for complaints about Disney packaging.... While we are asking... we might as well also ask them for stronger less dent-prone tins...

Pluto Region1 wrote: How do we know? Did I miss a post about Leonard? Did someone contact him?

Yeah, I had contacted him, and received a reply which I posted a couple pages ago:

Hi...

Thanks for your thoughtful note about the newest Disney Treasures.

The truth of the matter is that the folks at Disney don't allow me to participate in any of the preparation of materials for the actual DVD releases, so I don't get to check which masters are being used, and I am forced to trust their "good judgment." Sometimes, if I know of something I can warn them about, like the aspect ratios on the early-talkie Mickey Mouse cartoons, or not using refilmed end credits for the Disneyland TV shows, I make a point of bringing that up. Otherwise, they consider it their turf, not mine. (I wouldn't think I'd have to remind them that TOOT WHISTLE had already been remastered for the Fantasia disc...)

I do know that they have read some of the negative response to the newest DVDs and I'm hoping that this will send a red alert for preparation of Wave 6, which is now in its earliest stages. And I can promise you that I'll be nagging them about future transfers on the CinemaScope titles.

All I can do at this point is be more demanding for the future releases and hope that they'll stay on the ball.

cheers,

Leonard Maltin

Thanks for posting that, TM2. Wow, I wonder if this means Disney read the complaints here in this thread?! I sure hope not. I would have preferred that we had a chance to "rephrase" our concerns more politely.

On the bright side, at least they are aware now that consumers are noticing the quality issues.

I bought all 4 tins of Wave 5, BTW. (However I had to go to 2 or 3 stores to find "undented" tins!)

Pluto Region1 wrote:I bought all 4 tins of Wave 5, BTW. (However I had to go to 2 or 3 stores to find "undented" tins!)

You and your tins.

Pluto Region1 wrote:

Loomis wrote: So I guess it is the disc. I hope so, and I hope I am able to get a suitable replacement.

This might be just enough to get me to actually open the shrink wrap and try one out.... horrors, I've never actually opened any of my all brand new Tins that I've been collecting since mid-October. I just assumed all DVDs work, I have a whole bunch of DVDs actually that I've never played; some I bought more than 2 years ago. Obviously too late to return any of those.... Just goes to show how little I know about this stuff.

Of course maybe both players are dirty or the disk is just dirty?

Got a replacement disc and BOTH players are having the exact same problem.

I can only conclude that there is a disc problem, but it is isolated to certain players (which happen to my two). I've managed to get it working on my computer via some nifty software, which I will certainly continue to use. At least I am able to watch it. Just had a look at Ben and Me, which I had never seen before, and was thoroughly delighted.

Hopefully at some later date I will buy a new DVD player (more than likely the next generation whenever that happens) and I will be able to watch on a bigger screen then.