DVDizzy Forum

Perhaps cynical was not the right word.

I'm aware of what's going on at Disney, don't get me wrong, and it certainly doesn't look hopeful.

But then again, when Disney shut down their studio after the failure of Home on the Range, things were hopeless then, at least until a major shakeup happened.

I'm not saying a shakeup will happen again in the near future, but one shouldn't discredit that possibility either.

It's fine if you don't agree with me, I'm not trying to impose my views over anybody else.

I just don't think things will stay as hopeless or gloomy as long as people say. There MAY come a day when one of these indie 2D animated films does well, depending on if its a great movie or not. Will it be easy? No. Can it be done overnight? No. But I do admire the hand drawn animators who have chosen to not abandon this form of art (particularly Don Bluth's Dragon's Lair Movie), and I will be rooting for their works to inspire interest in studios again.

Go ahead, call me nonsensical or delusional, but on the other hand, even Walt himself was called similar names when he started work on his feature films. A lot of people thought Snow White was going to be a failure. It wasn't.

I know it doesn't happen every day, but I'm one of the few who has stubbornly chosen to cling to my burning candle of hope no matter what. I'm not saying I'm sure that that's what will bring 2D animation back, and I'm not trying to set myself up for disappointment, but I just don't see it the same way. Again, I side with ce1ticmoon and milojthatch on this, and it's perfectly understandable to be doubtful. I don't blame anyone here. But I feel that it just doesn't do me any good to think that way.

Disney's Divinity wrote: I don't agree with ce1ticmoon or milojthatch on much of anything either, so kudos.

Aww, your breaking my heart!

Seriously though, over the years I've become cynical about a lot of things myself and not just about animation or Disney. In regards to Disney and animation however, seeing the things the studio has done in the last decade and even meeting former (and current) employees from Disney TV Animation has left a sour taste in my mouth. Let's be blunt, in 2016 Disney is a major corporation who follows industry trends. Funny enough I was just reading the latest quarterly report on the company stock (Frozen and Star Was merchendice are on the decline, the parks and cruse ships are down but the films are doing well despite a few set backs, over all strength of the stock has taken a dip), and it's just a reminder that Iger and Lassiter and all the folks at Disney are going to green light and produce what they feel will make the investors the most money, which right now in feature animation that trend is CG films. That's how it works, end of story.

Here is the thing that I've finally realized: who cares? No seriously, who cares? While yes, I whole heartily feel that hand drawn will make a come back at some point (read my other posts), I don't feel I need to hold my breath until it does. In the case of Disney, frankly if Disney never makes another film that I like ever again, I'm going to be OK. They have made so many from the past that I do full enjoy and love, I'm good just watching those. And honestly, there is a bit of Disney hand drawn animation that has gone missing. Things like Sport Goofy in Soccermania or Scrooge McDuck and Money need to see the light of day again! And if/when they ever do see the light of day, it will almost feel like "new" stuff because it's been gone so long.

Further, Disney isn't the only game in town. The last month I've been watching The Real Ghostbusters (amazing how that show has held up all these years!) and the classic Looney Tunes shorts, and have been full content with both. When you keep in mind also how much of our time we spend working or with family, and that's not counting the time we spending eating, sleeping, transporting ourselves from place to place or using the restroom, there is only so much time to even spend watching movies or TV. If you are the kind of person that just wants to be entertained and it has to always be "new" (PS, there's no such thing), then I can see how this situation could be distressing for you. But for the rest of us, there is so much back catalog filled with classic animation, I don't see how anyone could get board just enjoying the classics over and over again (which IMO are way better than anything from today anyway).

Lastly, not all CG films are bad. I do feel that a lot of modern animated films get really lazy with the writhing, but that's not necessarily the animator's fault. I know a guy at Blue Sky, and he's an amazing animator. Trouble is he doesn't write the scrips, he just follows orders on what he's supposed to animate. While I love my friend, I don't feel a lot of the film's he's worked on are that amazing. However A.) he's doing way more than I have and B.) it's not up to him what the scrips say. It's just a job he does. I would argue that what we really should be more up in arms over so far as films are the hack writers that seem to populate much of the cinema today. If the writing is good enough, you can entertain an audience with nothing more than a paper sack. So, when a CG film comes along where the animation is the best it can be AND the writing is amazing, I have no issue with it. IMO, films like the Toy Story trilogy or Tangled are worth watching over and over again along side such classic as The Lion King or Peter Pan.

But, as always, you are free to disagree with anything and everything I've said. It's just my two-cents for what it's worth. I've always felt however that if someone doesn't like how something is going, they should stand up and take the initiative to do something different. Point being: we should all just go out and make new animation ourselves.

milojthatch wrote:

Disney's Divinity wrote: I don't agree with ce1ticmoon or milojthatch on much of anything either, so kudos.

Aww, your breaking my heart!

Seriously though, over the years I've become cynical about a lot of things myself and not just about animation or Disney. In regards to Disney and animation however, seeing the things the studio has done in the last decade and even meeting former (and current) employees from Disney TV Animation has left a sour taste in my mouth. Let's be blunt, in 2016 Disney is a major corporation who follows industry trends. Funny enough I was just reading the latest quarterly report on the company stock (Frozen and Star Was merchendice are on the decline, the parks and cruse ships are down but the films are doing well despite a few set backs, over all strength of the stock has taken a dip), and it's just a reminder that Iger and Lassiter and all the folks at Disney are going to green light and produce what they feel will make the investors the most money, which right now in feature animation that trend is CG films. That's how it works, end of story.

I don't like what Disney's doing either, and I HAVE gotten into other animation aside from them, but I still believe that there will come another 2D animated film that proves to be another game changer from one of these new studios, to the point that it will set a new trend, to the point that other studios, even big ones, will jump in, and I stand by that. I'm not really looking forward to what Disney is doing at this point, but in the 2000's, when it seemed as though they were serious about killing hand drawn, I was already into Anime to really notice. Then along came The Princess and the Frog, which reminded me why I liked Disney films to begin with.

If Bluth's Dragon's Lair or any of these other indie animated studios produces a film that sets a trail, then it'll be up to Disney to aspire to be better, not the other way around. I'll keep hoping that one of these indie films makes a difference.

B.) it's not up to him what the scrips say. It's just a job he does. I would argue that what we really should be more up in arms over so far as films are the hack writers that seem to populate much of the cinema today.

why do I get the feeling that a lot of these writers who write these CGI comedies would rather write for live action, but just cant get their scripts made in live action. B/c I swear alot of these CGI films feel like Im watching bro-comedies or Adam Sandler or Seth Rogan movies, just replace the CGI character casts with Sandler/Rogan and their pals and it would be the same thing. And of course now we have Sausage Party...

milojthatch wrote:Aww, your breaking my heart!

For realz?

I skimmed the rest, but, no, really, that has nothing to do with anything I said, which was: hand-drawn animation is dead at Disney. Which has been the case for a while. That doesn't require being cynical or pessimistic (which I may be about other aspects of Disney in its current form), it just is.

Well, as far as agreeing on something, as it stands, hand-drawn animation is dead at Disney. I mean, like you say, that's not really up for debate. I also don't see hand-drawn animation happening there in the foreseeable future (i.e. for at least a long while). I think the only point that I made in regards to this issue is summed up pretty well in the post that JTurner quoted--I'm not predicting or anticipating a triumphant return for hand-drawn animation at Disney at all; all I'm saying is, as a future development, it can't be ruled out, and the cyclical nature of trends in various aspects of life and culture is one reason I say that. That's all. I think that's very different from being delusional or irrational about it. But again, that said, I'm definitely not holding my breath. Honestly, I don't even think about it when I'm not on these boards.

And actually, I find that I do agree with you on a lot of things. I just feel much more compelled to respond to something when it seems there is a sorta "pile-on" (for lack of a better word) discussion happening and I don't agree with that consensus. When I agree with the arguments, most everything I would have said has already been said. When I disagree with something, it usually seems to be a minority opinion, so I just want to add that counter point to the discussion.

And I don't care what you guys say, Randy Newman's songs for Princess and the Frog are GREAT!
(mostly anyway)

JTurner wrote:
I don't like what Disney's doing either, and I HAVE gotten into other animation aside from them, but I still believe that there will come another 2D animated film that proves to be another game changer from one of these new studios, to the point that it will set a new trend, to the point that other studios, even big ones, will jump in, and I stand by that. I'm not really looking forward to what Disney is doing at this point, but in the 2000's, when it seemed as though they were serious about killing hand drawn, I was already into Anime to really notice. Then along came The Princess and the Frog, which reminded me why I liked Disney films to begin with.

If Bluth's Dragon's Lair or any of these other indie animated studios produces a film that sets a trail, then it'll be up to Disney to aspire to be better, not the other way around. I'll keep hoping that one of these indie films makes a difference.

That's kind of my point though, that while I agree with you that sooner or later something will come along, maybe we shouldn't be so focused on it. Let it come when it comes and until then enjoy what we have. Otherwise the wait is going to drive us nuts!

unprincess wrote:

B.) it's not up to him what the scrips say. It's just a job he does. I would argue that what we really should be more up in arms over so far as films are the hack writers that seem to populate much of the cinema today.

why do I get the feeling that a lot of these writers who write these CGI comedies would rather write for live action, but just cant get their scripts made in live action. B/c I swear alot of these CGI films feel like Im watching bro-comedies or Adam Sandler or Seth Rogan movies, just replace the CGI character casts with Sandler/Rogan and their pals and it would be the same thing. And of course now we have Sausage Party...

I can so get behind that. It just furthers when you think about how many animated roles Sandler and Rogan have taken over the years.

There's a new 2D video game coming out called "The Little Acre" produced by the Pewter Games studio in Dublin. It looks neat! More info in the articles below. You can watch the trailer, here.


Source: https://www.facebook.com/pewtergamesstu ... 229890076/


Articles

Curve Digital to publish Charles Cecil's The Little Acre
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/curve-di ... re/0171046

The Little Acre: A love letter to Broken Sword
http://www.alphr.com/games/1004345/the- ... oken-sword

The Little Acre features hand drawn animations
http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/468733/T ... nimations/

It really does look neat! There doesn't seem to be any mention of the game's genre, though. Is it a platformer, or is it an RPG? I don't even know if the footage in the trailer is gameplay footage or clips from the cut-scenes.

Jules wrote:There doesn't seem to be any mention of the game's genre, though. Is it a platformer, or is it an RPG?

It's a point-and-click game. You can find more info on the official website.

Sotiris wrote:There's a new 2D video game coming out called "The Little Acre" produced by the Pewter Games studio in Dublin. It looks neat! More info in the article below. You can watch the trailer, here.

Curve Digital to publish Charles Cecil's The Little Acre
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/curve-di ... re/0171046


Source: https://www.facebook.com/pewtergamesstu ... 229890076/

The design on that poster looks very familiar to the Secret of Nimh's theatrical poster.

Sotiris wrote:

Jules wrote:There doesn't seem to be any mention of the game's genre, though. Is it a platformer, or is it an RPG?

It's a point-and-click game. You can find more info on the official website.

Oh goody! I like point 'n click! But then I suppose it's not a natural fit for the PS4 and Xbox One systems, even though it's being released for them too. You'd definitely need to purchase a compatible mouse for use with those systems to play comfortably as you would on a PC or Mac.

Ooops! Double post!

DisneyBluLife wrote:

Sotiris wrote:There's a new 2D video game coming out called "The Little Acre" produced by the Pewter Games studio in Dublin. It looks neat! More info in the article below. You can watch the trailer, here.

Curve Digital to publish Charles Cecil's The Little Acre
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/curve-di ... re/0171046


Source: https://www.facebook.com/pewtergamesstu ... 229890076/

The design on that poster looks very familiar to the Secret of Nimh's theatrical poster.

I actually remember reading that many of Don Bluth's movies were made in Dublin.

jazzflower92 wrote:I actually remember reading that many of Don Bluth's movies were made in Dublin.

I believe that is correct, though I think it excludes The Secret of NIMH. To my knowledge, the Sullivan-Bluth Studios films encompass everything from An American Tail to The Pebble and the Penguin. After that, Bluth moved to the US at the short-lived Fox Animation Studios.

I just read an interview with Laika's CEO Travis Knight over at Cartoon Brew where he speaks about the possibilty of Laika producing a hand-drawn feature.

Travis Knight: I hope within the fullness of time, before I shuffle off this mortal coil, I absolutely hope that we do a 2-D film. They’ve always been a part of what we’ve done. I guess I just have a fixation for moribund art forms. Because nobody is working meaningfully in 2-D feature films anymore. [S]ome of the most beautiful animation ever in existence was done in 2-D. As I was telling you earlier, that’s effectively how I learned to animate. By studying the great 2-D animation. It’s a real shame for me to see this beautiful art form that gets neglected, when you could still so beautifully tell a story. We just don’t see it done very often. I would love to take the same prism that we apply to stop motion—take what we love about this medium, and try to do find a way to do something new with it. In the fullness of time, I would absolutely love to do that.

He also said this:

Travis Knight: I take a firm stand against sequels. My industry brethren are a little shocked at how firmly I’m committed to not doing sequels. Of course there are great sequels. Godfather II, The Empire Strikes Back. But I think if you look at where our industry is going, it’s dominated by franchises and brands, re-dos, re-makes, sequels and prequels, where all these old presents are re-wrapped and offered up as new gifts. The pendulum has gone so far in that one direction. We used to go to movies to see stories about ourselves. It would transport us to new worlds and we’d see aspects of ourselves reflected back. As TV has become more like movies, movies have become more like TV. It’s gone the other way. There are these serials, these continuing stories that are a regurgitation of the same things we’ve seen over and over again. And I have no interest in doing that.

You know how hard it is to make these things. You put so much of yourselves into these movies. It does come at a cost. You give and give and give to these movies. If we’re going to do that, it needs to matter; it has to mean something. I don’t want to tell the same stories over and over again. The way we approach our stories is we imagine each film as if it’s the most meaningful experience of our protagonist’s life. If that’s your point of view, your sequel is automatically either going to be (A) a diminishment of that – is it the second most important experience of your protagonist’s life? Or, (B) you’ve got to crank up the volume so much, everything’s sensory overload, and becomes comical how much you have to ratchet it up to justify its existence. I’m not interested in that. I don’t want to do that. I want to tell new and original stories.

This is what you get when a person running a company is emotionally invested in its output, its impact and legacy, and isn't there just for the profits. Disney executives could learn a thing or two from this guy.

Full article/interview: http://www.cartoonbrew.com/studios/excl ... 42586.html

^yeah but keep in mind the reason he can do whatever he wants is b/c his dad owns Nike and basically bought the studio for him. the guy can be as risky with his choices and not worry about how well their films perform at the B.O. which is good b/c I read Kubo isnt doing well. I do think he's got a cool attitude about animation though, and wish there were more like him in higher positions at the other studios.

I must admit I didn't know anything about his familial relationships, but I don't see how possible nepotism and privilege in his case could negate what he said about the industry as a whole. Disney is a huge corporation; they can allow themselves an occasional risky endeavor in the form of a hand-drawn feature (or one done using an experimental technique) every five years or so. They'll always have Star Wars and Marvel money to fall back on, not to mention multiple revenue streams from countless merchandise deals. I also find it extremely hypocritical they're not shying away from using and abusing their hand-drawn characters and exploiting their legacy (and fans' wallets), all the while repeating there's no market for hand-drawn films or "waiting for a right story" to tell.

but I don't see how possible nepotism and privilege in his case could negate what he said about the industry as a whole.

it doesnt, and I agree... Disney has no excuse for how theyve handled their hand drawn legacy. Its really shameful.

Didn't The Boxtrolls and ParaNorman both do about the same amount of business though? (ie, breaking even with some small profit) They both had budgets of 60 million and raked in 110 million. Even accounting with advertising, etc. they should've recouped all their costs, right? Coraline only did 10 million more than those two with the same budget. They seem to be pretty steady.

Btw, looking at how their other films panned out, K&tTS doesn't look to be doing any differently than their other three films (for worse or better). Where did you read it was doing badly, unprincess?