DVDizzy Forum

Disney Duster wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:22 pmEric being a collector of sea things is smart! He loves the sea! And Ariel is of the sea! They can share so much with each other.

Eric being a collector robs him of his individuality and makes Ariel less unique and special. You can't copy Ariel's traits and passions and give them to Eric, just so they can have things in common. That's lazy and contrived storytelling.

, Sotiris!

Not surprised to hear F&J don't talk since it sounds like they were CGIed in after-the-fact because of criticism over their absence.

Sotiris wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:35 am Eric being a collector robs him of his individuality and makes Ariel less unique and special. You can't copy Ariel's traits and passions and give them to Eric, just so they can have things in common. That's lazy and contrived storytelling.

And what would Eric "collect" anyway? Seashells??? Idiotic.

A couple more book illustrations featuring Ariel:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CqvIoDvqjvA/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CqvIvHYK7_V/


Also, a Cinemark exclusive promo, which is playing in theaters, includes a couple of new shots:


Source: https://twitter.com/HalleLegion/status/ ... 4108047360

Wait, wait, wait. I must've missed it before for skimming--Grimsby is the Prime Minister? Dafuq?? I assumed Grimsby and the Queen would have a Princess Diaries-esque romance before this (Julie Andrews' Queen ending up with the butler), now I have no idea what this is supposed to be.

Thankfully Asha in Wish was already confirmed to be a princess otherwise I'd almost think Disney was on some new bender to insert another PSA aside about how "royalty is bad" here. Nobody wants to be run by royals or a monarchy, Disney princesses are just fantasy, jeez.

Disney's Divinity wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 7:18 pmWait, wait, wait. I must've missed it before for skimming--Grimsby is the Prime Minister? Dafuq?? I assumed Grimsby and the Queen would have a Princess Diaries-esque romance before this (Julie Andrews' Queen ending up with the butler), now I have no idea what this is supposed to be.

I thought that would be the case too, but now I doubt the two will be romantically involved. Honestly, I don't see the point in having both a queen and a prime minister. Grimsby could have easily been an advisor or part of the royal court. Maybe they did this to show that the queen, being a woman of color, is more democratic and fair by ruling in a system of constitutional monarchy as opposed to Triton, a white man, who is the absolute ruler of Atlantica. So, I think this may be another case of an ideologically-based decision.

Today I've learned that there's a Twitter community created to share spoilers about the movie. I usually try to avoid major ones, but since this is a remake and we already know most of the story anyway, I read some of the leaked text from books posted there and two MAJOR MAJOR SPOILERS are already out there. Both are things that are different from the original, so don't read them if you want to be surprised when you watch the movie:

- In this version Ursula is responsible for Ariel's mother's death.

- Ursula dies the same way as in the original, but it's Ariel the one who kills her.

Disney's Divinity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:15 pm I haven't listened to the song snippets yet, I'll load those and the Menken video later when I have the time.

The song snippets are part of the Menken video; I just posted links to the points where each of them starts so they could be easily accessed. If you prefer to read it, this article contains pretty much all they say in the interview, except the snippets.

Disney's Divinity wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:38 am Just sorted through all the new images. I thought people had been talking about some newly revealed dress. It's just that same ugly one from the "Kiss the Girl" scenes we've already seen.

Yes, it's the same dress. It was just the first time we saw it in full. Before that we had only seen part of it in pictures and the doll version of it. It seems they want to keep the other dresses as a surprise for now.

Disney's Divinity wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:38 am I like Vanessa's actress, but she doesn't look even vaguely like Ariel's actor, which also makes her a miscast. She would be right if Ariel here looked like Ariel in the original.

I understand what you mean, but actually, since this movie has a colorblind or color-conscious casting the fact that they don't look alike is not a problem. The same way we are expected to believe Eric and her Black mother are biological mother and son, we are also expected to accept Ariel and Vanessa resemble each other if it's stated in the movie. I know it may seem weird, but that's how this type of casting works. Anyway, they made the shot where Eric sees Ariel for the first time on the beach very blurry here and she's backlit, so he can't see her very well.

Speaking of colorblind casting, you're right it takes more suspension of disbelief than musicals, which I used as an example the last time we talked about this subject, but that's also partly because we've watched musicals since we were children and are used to them, while this type of casting is relatively new and not very common. Well, at least when it comes to movies; I think in the theatre world it's more popular and has been used for some time.

Actually, I've only seen two movies where this practice was used: 1997's Cinderella and a new adaptation of David Copperfield starring Dev Patel that was released a couple of years or so ago. Also Hamilton on Disney+, but that was a stage recording. It's a bit weird at first, but then you forget about it as the film progresses and you become invested in the story. One of the advantages it has compared to other ways of having diverse casts is that you don't have to mess with history and still be accurate to the times being portrayed, as the characters themselves are not necessarily racebent; they're just played by people of a different ethnicity. I actually prefer this type of casting to other similar ways of adding diversity for that reason, at least when it comes to classic period stories.

UmbrellaFish wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:51 am So the story does look very faithful to the original, at least it seems to follow all the same major beats. What is it with these remakes and making the talking villain sidekicks speechless?

Yeah, Iago, for example, didn't talk either, right? He just acted like a normal parrot and repeated words he heard. And it's true; it seems the film is going to be quite faithful after all. Of course, they've added some things and changed others as we've learned, but at first I thought it would be similar to the upcoming Snow White remake. I didn't even believe Ariel would lose her voice in this version, since that aspect is so criticized. However, it seems it'll be more in line with Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin.

UmbrellaFish wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:51 am Does anyone else think the spikes on Ursula’s costume are a reference to some of the original 1989 concept art?

I noticed that too. I think it's possible. People online have also pointed out that Ursula's lair seems inspired by concept art for the original film as well:


Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/CpvsEU9OsDl/

Speaking of that, the entrance to the lair is full of skulls now, as we saw in the trailer. I wonder if that means the polyps won't appear in this version. Perhaps that was considered too dark?


Source: https://twitter.com/mmdisney200/status/ ... 58/photo/1

Sotiris wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:35 am Eric being a collector robs him of his individuality and makes Ariel less unique and special. You can't copy Ariel's traits and passions and give them to Eric, just so they can have things in common. That's lazy and contrived storytelling.

It's true they've given them very similar hobbies and passions, but regarding collecting stuff, I think Eric won't be at the same level as Ariel. In the leaked book it says the objects he collects are from his many voyages, so I guess they're things he buys as souvenirs in other lands. Telescopes, globes and figurines are some of the things mentioned. And the place where he stores them is the palace's library; he doesn't have a room devoted just for them like Ariel, so I think he's probably mostly an explorer.

Disney's Divinity wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:26 pm Not surprised to hear F&J don't talk since it sounds like they were CGIed in after-the-fact because of criticism over their absence.

In one of the new articles Melissa McCarthy says Ursula sometimes talks to herself in this version because she's been isolated for a long time. I wonder if that's why they decided Flotsam and Jetsam shouldn't talk; so she doesn't have anyone to speak with. Or why they weren't going to be in the movie initially, if that rumor was true. Here's McCarthy's comment:

That includes her performance of "Poor Unfortunate Souls." McCarthy leaned into the reality of Ursula's isolation when approaching the musical number.

"Something that I found really fun was, which of the lines — either talking or singing — is Ursula just muttering to herself?" McCarthy says. "She's been isolated a long time, so it was fun to play around with which ones are her talking to her friends, which ones are her arguing with herself, and then which ones are actually intentionally outward to Ariel? The concept of that suddenly seemed really fun."

Source: https://ew.com/movies/the-little-mermai ... ate-souls/

Sotiris wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:35 amEric being a collector robs him of his individuality and makes Ariel less unique and special. You can't copy Ariel's traits and passions and give them to Eric, just so they can have things in common. That's lazy and contrived storytelling.

But he doesn't have the same passion as Ariel. His passion is the sea, while hers is the land. And didn't you know people usually fall in love when they have things in common? So the collecting thing is what they have in common. It's smart!

According to the spoilers Eric is adopted what even?

So the queen is the only royal by blood and that's why they are pushing the "eric is out of his place" thing?

Oh, wow. Then forget all I said about colorblind casting. Now I understand this comment by the actress who plays Eric's mother in one of EW's articles:

"It's this sense of these babies being two outsiders of their origin story and then finding each other," she explains in EW's Little Mermaid cover story. "That's how I understood it and how Rob described it. So Eric being mothered and grown by a woman who looks like me on an island and you hear that story, and then you look at Ariel and her family and she being the outsider of that — there's that sense of, 'We recognize each other when we know what each other's been through.'"

Source: https://ew.com/movies/the-little-mermai ... ic-mother/


I wonder how they'll explain the diversity in Triton's kingdom. I guess genetics doesn't work the same way in that world and the same way each sister has a different hair color, they are also born with different skin colors? Or maybe there's only a partial colorblind casting? Because how are they going to explain the different accents?

I can't believe they made prince Eric an outsider in his own kingdom, and I thought him being a reverse Ariel obsessed with the sea was already dumb enough

Maybe Ariel and all her non white sisters are adopted too, though Disney wouldn't dare do that and only made it for Eric where it was even more out of place, geez I wonder why

I like how every time someone insists this film is actually faithful--no, really--some new major change is revealed. First the song lyrics, then Eric is now a collector, then Grimsby being Prime Minister and F&J being nonentities, Ursula killed Ariel's mother, now Eric is adopted. That's just in the past two pages.

D82 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:04 amI wonder how they'll explain the diversity in Triton's kingdom. I guess genetics doesn't work the same way in that world and the same way each sister has a different hair color, they are also born with different skin colors? Or maybe there's only a partial colorblind casting? Because how are they going to explain the different accents?

I think they'll just have the audience assume that unlike the human world, principles and rules like genetics or accent acquisition don't apply to fantastical creatures like merfolk. I doubt they'll explain anything. A lot of suspension of disbelief seem to be required in order to watch this movie.

Lele wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:32 amI can't believe they made prince Eric an outsider in his own kingdom, and I thought him being a reverse Ariel obsessed with the sea was already dumb enough

Yeah, it ridiculous. It's one thing for him to be an explorer given the setting, but making him a collector and an outsider too? It's just too much. Two people don't need to have the exact same interests and struggles to form a bond. Of course, that would require a more nuanced characterization and portrayal of their romance and that's not allowed in Disney remakes.

Disney's Divinity wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:00 amFirst the song lyrics, then Eric is now a collector, then Grimsby being Prime Minister and F&J being nonentities, Ursula killed Ariel's mother, now Eric is adopted.

Having Ursula kill Ariel's mother doesn't work narratively. There's no way Ariel would go to Ursula is she knew she did that. If she doesn't know, then why is that? It doesn't make sense that neither Triton nor anyone else would tell her if for no other reason than to warn her about Ursula given Ariel is constantly out and about exploring the ocean. The only way this could work would be if no one knew about this and it's something that's only revealed to the audience or something that Ursula tells Ariel later in the film.

If Ursula dies the same way as in the original, does that mean she will become a giant in the final battle?

Also, I agree that this plot that Ursula kills Ariel's mother is kinda stupid. How will this work within the story?

Sotiris wrote: Having Ursula kill Ariel's mother doesn't work narratively. There's no way Ariel would go to Ursula is she knew she did that. If she doesn't know, then why is that? It doesn't make sense that neither Triton nor anyone else would tell her if for no other reason than to warn her about Ursula given Ariel is constantly out and about exploring the ocean. The only way this could work would be if no one knew about this and it's something that's only revealed to the audience or something that Ursula tells Ariel later in the film.

I don't think it works at all. The only time we see Ursula "murderous" in the original film is after Eric and Ariel try to kill her first (and DO kill F&J). Ursula is a villain who wants to see her victims suffer, not die. Moreover, nothing about murdering the Queen gets her close to throne. If anything, it makes her less intelligent despite the fact that's the character's main trait, because the Queen's death, which would ultimately be no gain to her to be worth the risk involved (even if Triton died after the Queen, Ursula would still have to go through seven daughters to "inherit"), also could be traced back to her. Ursula isn't a dumb or murderous villain.

I could see a story of Ariel's mother being one of Ursula's polyps being a neat addition possibly, with her being revealed at the end following Ursula's death, only Ursula's polyp victims have also been deleted from the story. But murdering Triton's wife doesn't fit the character at all.

I read on that spoiler thread that Ursula killing Ariel's mother is another thing borrowed from the musical. I looked it up and, apparently, that element was introduced in the touring version of the musical and is also part of the junior version. And in those shows it's the third option you mentioned, Sotiris; it's not revealed until the third act and nobody knew about it before, so most likely it's what happens in the remake as well. Here's the info I found:

In the European and Sacramento productions of the musical based on the first movie, Ariel and King Triton learn during the last confrontation that Ursula killed Ariel's mother.

(Source)

In the reinvented version of the musical, Ursula and Triton had multiple older sisters, who were all killed by Ursula out of jealousy. When Ursula became the ruler of the seven seas, Triton overthrew her and became king, which is why she wants revenge. The magic nautilus shell was a gift to Ursula from Poseidon, to ease his guilt because he didn't give her as much attention as his other daughters. At the climax of the show it's revealed that Ursula is also responsible for the death of Ariel's mother.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Littl ... _(musical)

In the revamped version of the musical developed by Glenn Casale in 2012, Ursula and Triton's backstory was changed, making them the seventh and eighth of eight siblings respectively. Ursula killed their older siblings one by one until she became a queen, and she forgot about Triton until he became old enough to depose her and become king. Ursula's motivation for revenge otherwise remains similar to the original book of the musical, with the addition that she was the one who killed Ariel's mother.

Source: https://kids.kiddle.co/Ursula_(The_Little_Mermaid)

In the junior version developed for high school productions, she is no longer Triton's sister, though she did try to stage a coup against him and is also responsible for the death of Ariel's mother.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Littl ... _(musical)

From what I understand, she kills her out of revenge against Triton there because he deposed her. I think I also read somewhere that she makes others believe it was humans who killed her, but now I can't find where.

I knew that the musical had Ursula kill their siblings, later in its run when they replaced "I Want the Good Times Back" with "Daddy's Little Girl." The musical sucked, too.

.

Disney's Divinity wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:00 am I like how every time someone insists this film is actually faithful--no, really--some new major change is revealed. First the song lyrics, then Eric is now a collector, then Grimsby being Prime Minister and F&J being nonentities, Ursula killed Ariel's mother, now Eric is adopted. That's just in the past two pages.

Would you say they're changing this movie more than they did Aladdin? I'd consider that to be a fairly faithful remake, but there were a lot of small changes to that one (remixing the sequence of events in the first thirty minutes, Aladdin goes to the palace before the Cave of Wonders, Genie gets a love interest, Jasmine wants to be Sultan, dropping the "Prince Ali" reprise etc.) that feel mostly in the same vein as the changes we've heard for this one.

tsom wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 1:28 pmI’ve also seen Wish. Asha is not a princess.

Did you like Wish? What did you think of the animation style and the songs? Does Asha have a love interest? Is the character Chris Pine is playing the villain? Is he a real villain or a redeemed/misunderstood one? Were there any references or Easter eggs to other Disney films?