DVDizzy Forum

carolinakid wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:07 pm Regarding the lyric changes....these woke people must really think young people are stupid. Really... did any young girl or boy when listening to Ursula ... URSULA!...sing Poor Unfortunate Souls think they shouldn’t speak out of turn? Or in Kiss the Girl that Eric was gonna “force” himself on Ariel?

Yeah, it's ridiculous. I knew there would be lyric changes to Kiss the Girl back when the Princeton controversy broke out. I'm more surprised about the changes to Ursula's song considering she's the villain and like Menken said Ursula is clearly lying to Ariel in order to manipulate her. Honestly, this extreme PC culture is suffocating art.

Disney's Divinity wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:25 pmI couldn't help sensing a lot of sardonic shade in some of this... "He didn't even tell me. ... I'm used to that." "even though Ursula is clearly manipulating Ariel" "I like to be in the room with whoever I'm working with"

I thought his tone came off more sad and resigned than anything else, especially with the "I'm used to that" remark. I think it's incredibly dismissive and disrespectful of Disney to not even consult him in selecting lyricists for the remakes. I'd be one thing if it was for a brand new project, but we're talking here about previous work of his with an established musical vocabulary. He should definitely have a say in selecting a collaborator who he considers to be compatible with each project and has the right musical sensibilities. The fact he gets informed of that in press releases, without even being given a courteous heads-up, adds insult to injury.

If it's any consolation, "PUS" never had much chance being good in this anyway, and that's no shade to McCarthy. Even "Be Prepared" was pretty bad in the TLK remake, and that remake clearly had better people in charge than this film (good, googly moogly, they're terrible) and "PUS" is a superior and more complex song in its structure than "Be Prepared" at that, so...

Only way it would've been great is if they'd got someone like Bette Midler in the role. Well, I suppose it would have still been possible to ruin it even with someone with singing talent in the role. The version of "Poor Unfortunate Souls" in the Broadway show is completely unlistenable, Scott just screams the whole way through with no nuance at all. The only song she has in the show that I can bear to listen to at all is "I Want the Good Times Back" since her screaming at the top of her lungs at least suits the ending of that song very well ("The trident, crown, the throne--the whole damn works!!" and then the last line of determination that they will come back). I mean, you have a similar situation with Bailey, I guess, since she's loud with no nuance through POYW (Reprise). Like Sherie Scott there, Bailey will probably be better on the original song since it's written specifically for her and her way of singing since they don't cast people for the part but change the part for the actor they want in most cases these days. Just like how they cast skinny PYT Scott as old and overweight Ursula there, or how so many WDAS films change the character to suit the voice actor they cast rather than finding actors who suit their vision of the character. A lot of that's because they want big celeb names or someone inside the game that Disney already knows rather than letting creativity drive the process.

As for "Kiss the Girl," I wasn't expecting expecting much out of Miranda's friend as Sebastian on any of that character's songs anyway. If I felt Menken had much control at all anymore, I'd think most of the lyric changes or additions might be done in a tasteful way. But Miranda trends towards cringey, so IDK how those will go.

I was aware of the Princeton controversy, but I've never actually interacted with anyone who was personally offended by "Kiss the Girl" whereas I have had to go to bat for Ariel over the "changing herself for a man" nonsense. A couple of lyric changes aren't going to sate that crowd, and giving them more attention is only going to invite more scrutiny.

I don't know if Alan was throwing shade at Disney or not, but I was also surprised by how honest he was in this interview. I'm glad he was, though; especially regarding the unnecessary lyric changes. I also agree with Sotiris he should have a say in selecting a collaborator and Disney shouldn't have called Miranda without asking him first.

Regarding the lyric changes, I'm not surprised by that. At least they didn't cut "Kiss the Girl" altogether. If I remember correctly, some people here thought at first that might happen. I wonder how they're going to "fix" it.

As for the new songs, I thought "For the First Time" would probably be the one they plan to submit for the Oscars, but after hearing more about Eric's song, I now think that sounds like an even more likely candidate. I'm surprised Sebastian and Scuttle's song takes place so late in the movie. And that doesn't seem like a good or important enough moment for a song. It sounds like another "The Morning Report" to me. I hope I'm wrong, though, and the song is good.

By the way, I was reading the interview again, and I have a doubt. Does the phrase "for the first time" (in bold below) have a literal meaning here or is it referring to the title of Ariel's new song and they just forgot to add the quotation marks?

Each of the songs were a different formula of the two of us together. “Wild Unchartered Waters” was very much in my wheelhouse as a composer with lyrics set to the music. I think it was probably the most intimidating for Lin because he felt like it was really stepping into Howard [Ashman’s] shoes. For the first time, I took the essence of a piece of music that had been in the underscore of the original Little Mermaid. It was a very lilting feel to the moment. Lin asked to make it more edgy and more a two against three tempo-wise, if you know what that means. So we gave it a lot more edge and then wrote to that which took on this incredible excitement. It's a real combo of the two but he had really influenced the musical field. On “Scuttlebutt,” I wrote a piece of music with an implied melody line. Lin took that piece of music and brilliantly rapped over it musically. So there's this whole new creation.

It's the latter; he's clearly talking about the song. It's a shame Triton's song got cut, but hopefully it will get a clean, studio recording release like "Dessert Moon" did in addition to it being released on home video as a deleted scene. If you ask me, they should have cut Scuttle's song instead. It sounds the most unnecessary and pointless one. A Triton song would have contributed to his characterization; what does Scuttle's song add aside from a minor plot point that could have been replaced by a couple of lines of dialogue?

Anyhow, I wish they would release the fifth song that was cut too, but given it wasn't at all mentioned that seems unlikely.

As for which song will be submitted to the Oscars, I think it will be "For the First Time". It would look bad not to submit the only new song performed by Halle. They should just submit all of them and let the Academy decide, I always say. Personally, after Menken's comments, I'm more interested in Eric's song than the rest.

Sotiris wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:11 pm It's the latter; he's clearly talking about the song.

That's what I suspected. I think they made the same mistake here, earlier in the article:

We discussed with Rob Marshall what he wanted. One was the Prince Eric song, called “Wild Unchartered Waters.” Then, there was the song for Ariel when she has her legs (doesn't have a voice), and she's singing her thoughts about all the firsts she is noticing for the first time. Then, there was a number called “Scuttlebutt” for Scuttle and Sebastian.

It's interesting that Menken used a piece of music from the original film's underscore as the basis for the song. That's the same thing he did with "Beyond My Wildest Dreams", which was also for the same moment in the film.

Sotiris wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:11 pm It's a shame Triton's song was cut, but hopefully it will get a clean, studio recording release like "Dessert Moon" did in addition to it being released on home video as a deleted scene.

I hope so. And I agree Triton's song sounds like it would've been more relevant to the story than Scuttle's. Do we know who was going to sing the fifth song? I don't remember now if that was ever revealed or not.

Sotiris wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:11 pm As for which song will be submitted to the Oscars, I think it will be "For the First Time". It would look bad to not submit the new song sung by Ariel.

Well, that's true. They could submit both, but I guess that's unlikely. Eric's song is also the one I'm more interested in now.

PatchofBlue wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:58 pm I was aware of the Princeton controversy, but I've never actually interacted with anyone who was personally offended by "Kiss the Girl" whereas I have had to go to bat for Ariel over the "changing herself for a man" nonsense. A couple of lyric changes aren't going to sate that crowd, and giving them more attention is only going to invite more scrutiny.

I've seen many people online who had issues with the lyrics since 2018, I even theorized about it back in 2020:
viewtopic.php?t=32365&start=1280#p732477

He says he takes a bit of music from the original score and uses it for the song and it's "lilting." I wonder if it's actually the same exact bit of score they used for "Beyond My Wildest Dreams" (that one's in the "Miss Manners" track) or if it might be the part they took from "Crab On a Plate/Bedtime" that provided the basis for "One Step Closer"?

If it's something entirely new that he hasn't used for a song in the past, then, listening to the other tracks of her on land (before Vanessa enters) for possibilities, I personally think it's probably "Tour of the Kingdom" (the same melody in a slightly different form that's at the :48 second mark of "On Land" before it goes into a POYW variation). I could sort of picture that melody as a song with the right lyrics.

I was also listening to the soundtrack right now to see if I could guess which piece of music is the one he's chosen. I think it'll be one he hasn't used before. "Tour of the Kingdom" is a very likely option; I agree that one could work. I think it has the right tone for that moment, which is not strange since it'll be basically the same sequence but featuring a song instead of an instrumental piece. Come to think of it, if it's very evident the music is adapted from the score of the original, will it be eligible for the Oscars? Or could the Academy disqualify it?

Wow, I agree with your whole post above, D82! You and Divinity could both be right, it would make sense that scene with just lyrics set to that music. And what about the Academy, yeah? And I am most interested in Eric's new song, too. A song about what Ariel means to him? Awesome!

To be honest, I'm not a fan of taking a piece of score and forcing lyrics into it, they did the same thing in the Beauty and the Beast musical and all those new songs sounded awkward in my opinion.

The "kiss the girl" controversy is so stupid...

For that matter, I could argue that the animals/song (and maybe even Ariel) are trying to coerce Eric into kissing her. Putting pressure on him. SHE is the one with the agenda in this scenario.

In the real world, if you lean in to kiss someone... and they lean in as well... they clearly want to be kissed. There IS such a thing as body language. (not quoting Ursula)

I sadly have met some girls that took the "you've got your looks, your pretty face and (...) body language" a little too much to heart and did find it (somewhat) harmful.

More merch and new images of Mattel's "Ariel on land" doll.

There are also some Ariel doll reviews on Youtube. Here are the links, for anyone interested:

Live action little mermaid doll review
Live action little mermaid Ariel on land doll review
Live Action Transformation Ariel Doll

Sotiris wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:11 pm As for which song will be submitted to the Oscars, I think it will be "For the First Time". It would look bad not to submit the only new song performed by Halle.

I forgot that Halle might have another new song in the movie; the one written by Diane Warren, which could be an end credit song. If "For the First Time" wasn't deemed eligible for the use of pre-existing music, perhaps that's the one they're planning to submit instead. If that was the case, then I think they would also submit Eric's song so Menken and Miranda could compete for the award too.

Sotiris wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:11 pm They should just submit all of them and let the Academy decide, I always say.

I'm of the same opinion. If they had done that last year, "We Don't Talk About Bruno" most likely would've won the Oscar.

Farerb wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:41 am To be honest, I'm not a fan of taking a piece of score and forcing lyrics into it, they did the same thing in the Beauty and the Beast musical and all those new songs sounded awkward in my opinion.

Well, it's true that some of them sound a bit like a "collage". "If I Can't Love Her", for example, features music from two different pieces of score, plus new material. I guess it's partly an artistic choice, but also in many cases the parts of the score used are quite brief and need to be expanded with new music. Sometimes it works better than others, though. I think in the case of "Beyond my Wildest Dreams", for instance, it works quite well. I like "If I Can't Love Her" too, but I usually prefer when songs don't have too different melodies within them; they feel more cohesive to me that way. I think Menken said he uses this practice so the new songs feel like they belong to the same world as the rest.

Marce82 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:40 pm The "kiss the girl" controversy is so stupid...

For that matter, I could argue that the animals/song (and maybe even Ariel) are trying to coerce Eric into kissing her. Putting pressure on him. SHE is the one with the agenda in this scenario.

In the real world, if you lean in to kiss someone... and they lean in as well... they clearly want to be kissed. There IS such a thing as body language. (not quoting Ursula)

Exactly. I don't understand the controversy either.

D82 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:40 am Well, it's true that some of them sound a bit like a "collage". "If I Can't Love Her", for example, features music from two different pieces of score, plus new material. I guess it's partly an artistic choice, but also in many cases the parts of the score used are quite brief and need to be expanded with new music. Sometimes it works better than others, though. I think in the case of "Beyond my Wildest Dreams", for instance, it works quite well. I like "If I Can't Love Her" too, but I usually prefer when songs don't have too different melodies within them; they feel more cohesive to me that way. I think Menken said he uses this practice so the new songs feel like they belong to the same world as the rest.

Do you prefer "If I Can't Love Her" to "Evermore"?

No, "If I Can't Love Her" is not bad, but I much prefer "Evermore".

D82 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:07 am

Farerb wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:58 am Do you prefer "If I Can't Love Her" to "Evermore"?

No, "If I Can't Love Her" is not bad, but I much prefer "Evermore".

I do too.

I also love "Evermore" and "Beyond My Wildest Dreams."

See The Little Mermaid come to life in 10 exclusive photos
https://ew.com/movies/the-little-mermai ... on-photos/

These look really nice. Especially that one with Ariel and Eric on the beach, as she's singing to him.

Here are also some new articles from EW:

Making a splash: A deep dive into the live-action Little Mermaid with a new generation's Ariel
https://ew.com/movies/the-little-mermai ... ver-story/

The Little Mermaid's Rob Marshall reveals why Harry Styles wasn't cast as Prince Eric
https://ew.com/movies/the-little-mermai ... -marshall/

Meet Harry Potter and the Cursed Child star who plays Prince Eric's mother in The Little Mermaid
https://ew.com/movies/the-little-mermai ... ic-mother/


And new videos:

Lin-Manuel Miranda and Alan Menken On Collabing In 'The Little Mermaid' | Entertainment Weekly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoaF0PP7Fzs

Noma Dumezweni and Jonah Hauer-King on 'The Little Mermaid' | Entertainment Weekly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUlSo58SjPw