DVDizzy Forum

When I saw The Lion King in the theatre at around 5 years old, the "it's a small world" bit did make me laugh. I was also always a fan of the Spielberg-produced Warner Bros animated shows from the '90s, like Animaniacs and Tiny Toons, which were heavily dependent on reference humour. Even if I didn't get the reference (I would obviously have no idea Goodfeathers was spoofing a Martin Scorsese movie), there would be something else happening on screen like slapstick that made the bit land.

I often think about something Dan Povenmire and Jeff Marsh would say about using reference humour in "Phineas and Ferb." Even if a piece of meta humour went over a child's head and was intended more for parents, they always knew there would be a gag five seconds later that a child would understand. So meta humour has never been something that has bothered me personally. But everyone finds different things funny.

Jules wrote: Those who constantly whine that a project is "unDisney" or anything of the sort are the very people undermining the creativity and diversity of the films the studio creates (and often they are the same ones who complain about sameness!)

Nah. Big Hero 6 and WIR were unDisney and, worse than that, turned out to just be plain bad films (regardless of whether they felt Disney or not). Maybe they should aim for making something good. I say if you want to see PIXAR films, look to PIXAR. If you want Marvel films, look to Marvel. Etc. Let Disney be Disney. I see myself not as a conservative Disney fan so much as a mixed bag of opinions on where they should go with their films. I don't rant about female protagonists becoming more powerful in Disney's newest films, for example, but I notice many don't seem to mind railing against that kind of change. If it's fine to hold that particular antipathy to change, why is it more wrong to hate films that attempt to be like another studio for heaven's sake?

Sotiris wrote: It's been happening for a while. WDAS' identity is being chipped away little by little. It was bad enough with all the foreign elements in their stories such as the buddy road trip formula, stock characters like the obnoxious male lead, meta humor, and even subject matter in certain cases. Recent developments such as hiring outside directors, especially ones who have no background in animation and want to tell personal stories, making co-productions with other studios, and expoiting their library with series and shorts, make me believe things are going to get worse. I understand that some don't see this as an issue, but I do.

I don't know if it'll get worse. At worst, it might stay the same. Zootopia for example is mostly like PIXAR, except Judy feels like a Disney protagonist for sure. I suppose it's the "impossible dream" aspect to her. BH6 has the brothers' relationship and even WIR imitates to some degree the Renaissance idea of being an outsider and rulebreaker. I say that to say that while they felt generally very un-Disney, there were still elements there. I suppose it could get worse and even those scarce elements could disappear, I don't know. It's possible. Right now, I'm thinking Mirabel could be very Disney-esque in her attitude... Nothing else about the narrative really shouts Disney. The one thing to be hopeful for is that this might be the first time they may try to slowly step out of the shadow of the buddy roadtrip structure, finally finally finally.

Moreover, nobody gets to decide what films people decide to put on a pedestal (if any). People like what they like. I don't necessarily think many of Walt's films deserve to be on a pedestal either. It's a person's prerogative to think the Walt Era was the cream of the crop or not, or any other era for that matter.

Sotiris wrote:I understand that some don't see this as an issue, but I do.

Don`t worry, Sotiris. You`re not the only one who dislikes it. So do I.

farerb wrote:The reason I'm saying this is that it seems that you have been extremely negative about this specific film, even more so than others, why?

I don't feel I'm being "extremely negative" as you put it. If I come across as more critical, it's because I care more about this project than other ones. I don't particularly care about Pixar films or animal-led films from WDAS, so naturally I'm not going to bothered much about something I have little interest in to begin with. I do care about princess-led musicals though and I want them a certain way. I know you believe I'm against this movie because LMM's involvement, but that's not true. If it had the elements I liked, I'd be all for it.

farerb wrote:Not saying that I liked these particular two jokes and they are the weakest parts of the movie to me, but they are not enough to ruin the movie for me as a whole.

I didn't say that the meta jokes "ruined" Moana. I just meant the movie would have been better without them and you seem to agree, so why do you take offence when that's pointed out? It makes you seem like you enjoy this type of humor and you want it present in Disney movies.

farerb wrote:Anyway, that was Hercules, what are The Lion King, Mulan and Tarzan excuses of having a very dramatic and serious first act and then come the comedic sidekick at the start of the second bringing their out-of-place humor like fart jokes, mentioning sleeping beauty or playing dress up? What are the gargoyles excuse of ruining a serious dramatic operetta?

What makes you think I like the humor in those cases? If it were up to me, I wouldn't have included plenty of those. All of the Disney movies have humor in them. I don't have a problem with comedy as long as it's tastefully done, doesn't feel forced or out of place.

Disney's Divinity wrote:Nobody gets to decide what films people decide to put on a pedestal (if any). People like what they like. I don't necessarily think many of Walt's films deserve to be on a pedestal either. It's a person's prerogative to think the Walt Era was the cream of the crop or not, or any other era for that matter.

Yep. People feel personally attacked if someone criticizes art they enjoy or if they praise art they dislike. At the end of the day, it's all subjective and everyone's entitled to their opinion. People need to be more cognizant and tolerant of that.

Sotiris wrote:I know you believe I'm against this movie because LMM's involvement, but that's not true.

Even if someone were to dislike the movie because of that reason, I don't think that's anyone's business? I admit his involvement is one huge minus to the project for me personally, although I still plan to see this in theaters unless the advertisements look absolutely horrendous. It's more his involvement + the story details combined that leave me very skeptical about this project, tbh.

I imagine there would be several dreading this project (yourself included, Sotiris ) if Beyonce was the composer, so I'm sure they can understand the reaction.

Sotiris wrote: I don't feel I'm being "extremely negative" as you put it. If I come across as more critical, it's because I care more about this project than other ones. I don't particularly care about Pixar films or animal-led films from WDAS, so naturally I'm not going to bothered much about something I have little interest in to begin with. I do care about princess-led musicals though and I want them a certain way. I know you believe I'm against this movie because LMM's involvement, but that's not true. If it had the elements I liked, I'd be all for it.

Okay, that's more understandable, though why are you forgiving of Raya not being a musical and why were you more interested in Soul?

By the way, regarding LMM's involvement, it's okay to not like him or his involvement. I understand he's not everyone's taste and it's completely valid. It just seemed like his involvement clouded everything else, I'm glad that that's not the case.

Sotiris wrote: I didn't say that the meta jokes "ruined" Moana. I just meant the movie would have been better without them and you seem to agree, so why do you take offence when that's pointed out? It makes you seem like you enjoy this type of humor and you want it present in Disney movies.

I don't take offense when it's pointed out, but that's basically the only thing that is being pointed out while there are many other excellent things in this film as well, and I never got the feeling that people here were fine with a film that is not so different than what Disney used to do in the 90's, either because of that one stupid line or because of the way Moana (the character) was marketed. Seems like this one in particular has more resentment than others, not just from you but from 4-5 others as well, I think the only ones who like this film as much as I do are D82 and rodrigo_ca. I don't really mind that, everyone should like what they like, I've given up discussing Moana in here and I didn't really want to resurrect it.

Sotiris wrote: What makes you think I like the humor in those cases? If it were up to me, I wouldn't have included plenty of those. All of the Disney movies have humor in them. I don't have a problem with comedy as long as it's tastefully done, doesn't feel forced or out of place.

It just that their humor didn't seem to bother you at all, at least I didn't get the sense that it did and I tried to understand why.

Sotiris wrote:

Disney's Divinity wrote:Nobody gets to decide what films people decide to put on a pedestal (if any). People like what they like. I don't necessarily think many of Walt's films deserve to be on a pedestal either. It's a person's prerogative to think the Walt Era was the cream of the crop or not, or any other era for that matter.

Yep. People feel personally attacked if someone criticizes art they enjoy or if they praise art they dislike. At the end of the day, it's all subjective and everyone's entitled to their opinion. People need to be more cognizant and tolerant of that.

I don't feel personally attacked and this is true for all my posts and comments. I agree it's subjective and everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it seems to me like it's true for others? Like when I have criticism towards Frozen or Hercules?!
No I don't care what others have to say about Moana, or Beauty and the Beast, or whatever, especially not about LMM which I don't in particular care for. What I do care about is when I am personally being attacked, like when I'm called anti-feminist and being compared to a Trump supporter for only voicing a displeasure with the way Disney reinterprets their female characters in the remakes. I'm one of the only here who admire WDAS for their female protagonists and dare I say that I find Moana to be much more interesting than Ariel but I know I'll get flak for such heresy as well.

And I said that I don't put the latter 90's on a pedestal, never said that anyone else isn't allowed to do it. I thought this is a discussion forum and what we do here is discussing and sharing opinions, but sometimes I just regret ever going into this and posting in the first place.

I’ve read it before, but I still don’t know who at the forum actually dislikes Moana though? I think it’s one of the few films from Disney that has received little to no criticism. Even Zootopia has probably been more criticized. Tangled, TP&TF, Frozen, WIR, and BH6 have all received their share of strong hatred at one point or another. Maybe there aren't many "huge" fans of Moana that I know of here, but there aren't any "huge" haters of the film either.

Disney's Divinity wrote:I’ve read it before, but I still don’t know who at the forum actually dislikes Moana though? I think it’s one of the few films from Disney that has received little to no criticism. Even Zootopia has probably been more criticized. Tangled, TP&TF, Frozen, WIR, and BH6 have all received their share of strong hatred at one point or another.

I didn't want to name people because it's rude but since it's always being put in doubt then fine:
Disney Duster, DisneyFan09, Clindor, RyGuy, JeanGreyForever, Atlantica, Mooky, Sotiris and you have shown displeasure with Moana. Which is fine - like what you like, dislike what you don't like, I'm just pointing this out. That and the fact that whenever I did try to discuss this film I met with negative reaction, so I'm not making this up.

Hmm. *shrug* I personally don't hate Moana though. I have mostly a "meh" feeling towards that film. I guess it's my least favorite of M&C's films, but that's not really that damning a statement since I enjoy all their films.

DisneyFan09 wrote:Don't worry, Sotiris. You're not the only one who dislikes it. So do I.

I'm glad I'm not alone in this. I think that most fans are fine with whatever Disney throws at them and I often feel like the odd one out for not going along with it and speaking out.

Disney's Divinity wrote:I imagine there would be severaldreading this project (yourself included, Sotiris ) if Beyonce was the composer, so I'm sure they can understand the reaction.

I hope I didn't come across as a Beyoncé hater or something. There are plenty of songs of hers that I like. I didn't like "Spirit" but there were two others credited for that song and we don't know how much and in what way she contributed. I also feel she shouldn't have inserted herself in a soundtrack she didn't originate, although the blame on that falls more on Disney than her. In general, I'm against pop stars working on musicals because they usually don't have the necessary skills or appreciation for the art form.

farerb wrote:Okay, that's more understandable, though why are you forgiving of Raya not being a musical and why were you more interested in Soul?

I'm really disappointed Raya isn't a musical, but I've already complained about it like 5 times. There's nothing more to say or add to it. I was never that interested in Soul. A bit more than usual for a Pixar film because of the human characters and the music, but not by a lot.

farerb wrote:Seems like this one in particular has more resentment than others, not just from you but from 4-5 others as well, I think the only ones who like this film as much as I do are D82 and rodrigo_ca.

Well, I can only speak for myself here, but I don't resent Moana. There are elements in it I don't care for and have no problem expressing how I feel about them, but that doesn't mean I dislike the movie as a whole. In fact, it's my third-favorite CG film after Tangled and Frozen.

farerb wrote:I agree it's subjective and everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it seems to me like it's true for others? Like when I have criticism towards Frozen or Hercules?!

Of course! Even though I love Hercules and quite like Frozen, I don't have an issue or take offence when you criticize them.

I guess I just like what I like, and don't mind what WDAS makes as long as it's of interest to me. Some of my favorite films from the studio include Princess and the Frog, Lady and the Tramp, The Emperor's New Groove, and Hunchback of Notre Dame, while I'm more lukewarm towards Tangled, The Aristocats, Hercules, and Pocahontas, for instance. All I know is that I don't want to see the same thing over and over again.

Sotiris wrote: I hope I didn't come across as a Beyoncé hater or something. There are plenty of songs of hers that I like. I didn't like "Spirit" but there were two others credited for that song and we don't know how much and in what way she contributed. I also feel she shouldn't have inserted herself in a soundtrack she didn't originate, although the blame on that falls more on Disney than her. In general, I'm against pop stars working on musicals because they usually don't have the necessary skills or appreciation for the art form.

Oh, no, I was just trying to use an example of someone many people would probably react negatively to being chosen as composer for a WDAS film to help make the point, since everyone's opinions are so divided.

For me, what I've never quite understood (and I'm not criticising anyone for this) why Disney Animation has to follow specific rules when it comes to making their films. I think, at the end of the day, the filmmakers and artists there mainly focus on making a crowd-pleasing family friendly film with appealing characters, a compelling story, winning humour of all types (whether slapstick, verbal, meta and even occasionally gross-out), stunning animation, heart without getting too schmaltzy and a strong message that hopefully resonates with audiences. If it's a fantasy film, they will add that extra dosage of enchantment and magic. If it's a musical, they will make sure the songs are memorable and plot relevant. Maybe the studio's legacy comes up in pitches, but they don't try and tether themselves to it. Even Walt always had the idea to "keep moving forward."

Sotiris wrote:I'm glad I'm not alone in this. I think that most fans are fine with whatever Disney throws at them and I often feel like the odd one out for not going along with it and speaking out.

Well, that`s a pity. But I honestly think that true Disney fans are not fine with whatever Disney throws at them and appreciates what`s true, classic Disney.

farerb wrote:DisneyFan09 have shown displeasure with Moana.

Really? Well, if that`s the case, I apologize. I may have shown my displeasure with Moana, but I certainly don`t hate it. I just don`t find it as great as a whole (just like her Revival counterparts) and therefore I may have addressed my displeasure. But if I seemed like I was hating it, then I`m sorry.

DisneyFan09, you don't have to apologize. It's completely fine not to like (or not be enthusiastic) about a film. It wasn't really about pointing fingers. More to show that the people in the forum in general are not really Moana fans, and that's completely okay, it was just about where I'm coming from regarding why I don't bother discussing about Moana here anymore. Not about shaming anyone.

estefan wrote: Even Walt always had the idea to "keep moving forward."

I always took that quote more to mean try new techniques, technology, and so on. Modern Disney isn’t doing that… They’re very well-settled into “the same.” If they cared about moving forward, they’d be exploring the Paperman technique for example or infusing a more stylistic aesthetic in their films.

farerb wrote:DisneyFan09, you don't have to apologize. It's completely fine not to like (or not be enthusiastic) about a film. It wasn't really about pointing fingers. More to show that the people in the forum in general are not really Moana fans, and that's completely okay, it was just about where I'm coming from regarding why I don't bother discussing about Moana here anymore. Not about shaming anyone.

Okay, thanks. And you`ve right. In retrospect, Moana has various of good moments and frankly I find it to be a superior film to a certain phenomenon about a snow queen.

DisneyFan09 wrote: Okay, thanks. And you`ve right. In retrospect, Moana has various of good moments and frankly I find it to be a superior film to a certain phenomenon about a snow queen.

I think Frozen has its own strengths, but to me Moana was the only film that took me back to my childhood like no other Revival film did (not even Tangled). And while I might enjoy future WDAS films, I don't think they'll make me feel the same way, mainly because M&C won't ever be involved with them, who I think were the main reasons of why I felt that way with Moana.

DisneyFan09 wrote:I honestly think that true Disney fans are not fine with whatever Disney throws at them and appreciates what`s true, classic Disney.

Can we not gatekeep like this? You can have your own ideas for what you prefer in your Disney movies, but let's not categorize others into "true Disney fans" and "not true Disney fans." The Star Wars fanbase does this, too, by saying those who like the sequel trilogy aren't true Star Wars fans.

If you greatly enjoy something or you're passionate about something (while still occasionally being critical of it at times), you're a fan.

In my opinion Moana is the best modren Disney animated movie !

It’s certianly my favorite at least !!

I really love it !