DVDizzy Forum

Alphapanchito wrote:

ok, she looks like princess fiona in the cover photo. :S she looks better in her natural tones.

It's wrong when people White Wash Black Celebrities.. Take the likes of Beyonce and Nicki Minaj, now they are at the top of their games, Labels and Beauty Mags decide to make them right. It just doesn't make sense?
Take Minaj for example she is originally from Trinidad!

Here are some comparisons!
Beyonce

Nicki Minaj
<img height="281" src="http://im.glogster.com/media/8/37/26/11/37261143.jpg" width="550">


Beyonce receives more criticizer than others. It's just a shame I suppose when they are such great black role models, why change?

Thanks Super Aurora. I've never seen that cover before, and she's really beautiful. Wow. But the fact remains, we don't see this often at all. We get white people on the front cover all the time, and once in a while we get a black person, more often than not a whitewashed one. The fact that that issue of Elle is special because it is probably one of the only ones of its kind. There just aren't that many. And I do think that is because of racism.

Super Aurora wrote:Most of so called "whitewashing" blacks as you called them

That's what I always heard other people call it.

Super Aurora wrote:Alicia Keys and such are actually half black and have white linage(though the image you posted isn't but that i'll get to in point #2) in them too hence why their skin isn't as dark as ones like image i post. Also many blacks in America(especially up in north east coast) are slowly getting lighter skin color through generations and this is because they are now living in a northern temperate environment where as if they live in Africa their skin would of remain much much darker.

I'm not complaining about that. I'm complaining about when a black person is in a publication, obviously photoshopped to be several shades lighter than she really is. Now don't get me wrong; the stars can do what they want. People are usually against Beyonce's whitewashing of her own CDs and stuff. I think she can do what she wants with her own image, no matter if the point is to escape racist stereotypes, or just if she likes how she looks better with her lighter skin.

Super Aurora wrote:Most other stuff you complained about involved just lighting and photoshop and this is done one ALL models. White, blacks hispanic etc. All get this. There is no denying that racism exist. but companies would be a fool if they try to, blatant or not, implicate any hint of such. it would hurt their business especially one such like Disney.

Okay, so this is where I disagree. Photoshop is done to models to make them look prettier. To make them look skinnier, have perfect skin/hair/everything. But the when you have a black model, they have to do something extra to make her pretty. Because she isn't as pretty as the white model, they have to lighten her skin. The issue is dark skin is seen as something that can't be beautiful most of the time. And that is racist. The elle cover you posted is a good exception that doesn't happen often.

Super Aurora wrote:majority of the demography who are in to this stuff are 4-7 year old white girls. And because they make up the majority of the demography, as well as the fact that the white girls are more than likely want to be with someone similar to them(a white princess), disney marketer find it much more sense and profitable to expose and promote the white princesses up front. It's all marketing business and what they find make them most money.

Okay. I still think that kids don't choose their favorite princesses entirely on how much they look like said princess. They choose the ones that they think are prettiest. And even if they did, I think something like 13% of americans are black. I don't know much about marketing, but thats a pretty big market to chop off. But it's okay, cause the black girls like the white princesses anyway because they think they are prettier.

I don't know, I still feel like racism is involved here, even if it wasn't intended. Most racism isn't. I guess there probably wasn't much racism on disney's part. They were just doing what makes them more money. But the reason why it makes them more money is because of a racist society. Sure, maybe kids like princesses that look most like them, but it's hard for me to believe that that's the only reason. I just think there is more than one factor at play here.

Alphapanchito wrote:

Super Aurora wrote:Most other stuff you complained about involved just lighting and photoshop and this is done one ALL models. White, blacks hispanic etc. All get this. There is no denying that racism exist. but companies would be a fool if they try to, blatant or not, implicate any hint of such. it would hurt their business especially one such like Disney.

Okay, so this is where I disagree. Photoshop is done to models to make them look prettier. To make them look skinnier, have perfect skin/hair/everything. But the when you have a black model, they have to do something extra to make her pretty. Because she isn't as pretty as the white model, they have to lighten her skin. The issue is dark skin is seen as something that can't be beautiful most of the time. And that is racist. The elle cover you posted is a good exception that doesn't happen often.

Generally speaking, the lightening is done because it helps hide imperfections by lowering the contrast of the skin, smoothing out its appearance and allowing more focus on features such as the eyes. It's more criticized when it's done on blacks though because it makes people believe it's a racist issue. More often than not, I don't believe that's the intention at all. Decreasing the contrast also decreases the saturation, another reason they go with lightening the skin, otherwise the color/life is taken right out. One could argue that the contrast shouldn't be tampered with at all, but as Super Aurora pointed out, it's done on all models regardless of race.

And heck, even when I'm working on a drawing, the less contrast there is in the shading of the skin, the more feminine a character is more likely to look. Darker skin is especially difficult to shade properly because of this. And I'm not saying dark skin isn't feminine, once again I'm referring to the contrast of the skin itself which doesn't always lend itself well to 2-dimensional representations, whether it be a drawing or a photo.

Super Aurora wrote:If I have to explain the explanation for the disney princess thing. In addition to what Mike said, you have to realize that majority of the demography who are in to this stuff are 4-7 year old white girls. And because they make up the majority of the demography, as well as the fact that the white girls are more than likely want to be with someone similar to them(a white princess), disney marketer find it much more sense and profitable to expose and promote the white princesses up front. It's all marketing business and what they find make them most money.

Alphapanchito wrote:I still think that kids don't choose their favorite princesses entirely on how much they look like said princess. They choose the ones that they think are prettiest. And even if they did, I think something like 13% of americans are black. I don't know much about marketing, but thats a pretty big market to chop off. But it's okay, cause the black girls like the white princesses anyway because they think they are prettier.

Maybe it's interesting to note that when *I* was a kid, I wanted to play with dolls that looked like me and made-believe that I was characters that I related with and looked up to.

You know how hard it was to find a Barbie that had brown hair and blue eyes? Or even a cabbage patch kid with those features? That's what I wanted to connect with, and that was a market simply not being catered to. And when we'd all play superheroes on the playground, my best friend always insisted on being Super Girl because she was blonde. She'd tell me I was "stuck" as another character that wasn't as "pretty," but I loved either being Batgirl or especially Wonder Woman because to me, they were powerful characters with interesting personalities. I used to spin around like Linda Carter in my WW Underoos, lol. So I don't think girls always gravitate to the "pretty" characters, I think they're drawn to characters they feel a connection to. It does often involve physical appearance, but I believe it's something that runs deeper.

Besides playing princess and superhero, I was more inclined to play business woman. I made a desk out of a box, folded corners of a paper to put on top, and put on a white business shirt. I'd also put my hair up in a bun while wearing my mom's old glasses, and would pound on my "desk" and demand that work get done! Wish I had photos.

Alphapanchito wrote:I don't know, I still feel like racism is involved here, even if it wasn't intended. Most racism isn't. I guess there probably wasn't much racism on disney's part. They were just doing what makes them more money. But the reason why it makes them more money is because of a racist society. Sure, maybe kids like princesses that look most like them, but it's hard for me to believe that that's the only reason. I just think there is more than one factor at play here.

When I was a kid, we didn't have any Tiana, Mulan, Pocahontas, or even Jasmine so I'm not sure how I might have related to them any differently. Not even sure how aware of race I was, as I grew up in a small community that was 99% white. But I do recall watching the Miss America pageants as a kid and wishing I was Asian because I thought the ladies had beautiful skin, hair, and eyes.

I can certainly speak as an adult now though, and in terms of design, Tiana is one of my favorites. I love her palette and proportions. I love her personality too, and most likely would have loved her as a kid since she's an honest, hard worker that wanted to take herself places (once again, I loved playing "business woman"). But many little girls (like my best friend from childhood) seem to lean toward the fantastic, princessy-type blondes more in the lines of Cinderella and Aurora, dressing up and making pretty poses like in the merchandise. And that's exactly the market Disney is catering to with this merchandising.

Alphapanchito wrote:I guess there probably wasn't much racism on Disney's part. They were just doing what makes them more money. But the reason why it makes them more money is because of a racist society.

^This.

Oh, I see the whitewashing. That's...horrible.

Alphapanchito wrote:Yeah, I mean i'm going to buy the blu ray and try to watch it again, because I haven't seen it in a loong time. So maybe I'll have a different opinion of it this time around. I'll let you know.

Yaaayyy! I hope you like her bits of sarcasticness and anger and determination and hope and warmth and down to earth in charge control and stuff amid all that innocent cheerful princessy stuff in her.

Do you think little girls look at the new Princess makeovers and go "Hmmmm this new hair .... I am just not feeling it!" I don't mean that in a mean way, but I think we may be over analysing this slightly ? A different fringe/a different dress isnt a big deal ..... it is when the essense of the characters change themselves. That's when Disney loses it with me.

enigmawing wrote:When I was a kid, we didn't have any Tiana, Mulan, Pocahontas, or even Jasmine so I'm not sure how I might have related to them any differently. ...

I can certainly speak as an adult now though, and in terms of design, Tiana is one of my favorites. I love her palette and proportions. I love her personality too, and most likely would have loved her as a kid since she's an honest, hard worker that wanted to take herself places (once again, I loved playing "business woman"). But many little girls (like my best friend from childhood) seem to lean toward the fantastic, princessy-type blondes more in the lines of Cinderella and Aurora, dressing up and making pretty poses like in the merchandise. And that's exactly the market Disney is catering to with this merchandising.

Yeah, as a child I would've always picked Ariel because I liked the film and her personality, but, to me, Tiana is just an extremely *pretty* character. Which is why I think it's her skin color that girls aren't liking, considering, with Aurora's popularity, personality is clearly not why they are going for this stuff.

atlanticaunderthesea wrote:Do you think little girls look at the new Princess makeovers and go "Hmmmm this new hair .... I am just not feeling it!"

I hope so! But I doubt it. Still, I think the modern look might backfire because these girls want princesses, and not Bratz dolls. Again, I doubt it, but it's always a possibility.

enigmawing wrote:Generally speaking, the lightening is done because it helps hide imperfections by lowering the contrast of the skin, smoothing out its appearance and allowing more focus on features such as the eyes. It's more criticized when it's done on blacks though because it makes people believe it's a racist issue. More often than not, I don't believe that's the intention at all. Decreasing the contrast also decreases the saturation, another reason they go with lightening the skin, otherwise the color/life is taken right out. One could argue that the contrast shouldn't be tampered with at all, but as Super Aurora pointed out, it's done on all models regardless of race.

And heck, even when I'm working on a drawing, the less contrast there is in the shading of the skin, the more feminine a character is more likely to look. Darker skin is especially difficult to shade properly because of this. And I'm not saying dark skin isn't feminine, once again I'm referring to the contrast of the skin itself which doesn't always lend itself well to 2-dimensional representations, whether it be a drawing or a photo.

Agreed. A lot of people don't seem to understand how many things factor into skin tone regardless of race.

enigmawing wrote: And heck, even when I'm working on a drawing, the less contrast there is in the shading of the skin, the more feminine a character is more likely to look. Darker skin is especially difficult to shade properly because of this. And I'm not saying dark skin isn't feminine, once again I'm referring to the contrast of the skin itself which doesn't always lend itself well to 2-dimensional representations, whether it be a drawing or a photo.

Wow, I never knew that because I never experienced that, having no artistic talent (when it comes to visual arts, anyway). I feel a little better about it now, but the thing is, I'm not black, so it doesn't really matter how I feel. I know a lot of black people that are really hurt and think of it as a racist remark on beauty standards when they see it. So, even if the intent of whitewashing isn't meant to be racist, if an oppressed group takes offense, I really think something should be done about it. But what you are saying makes a lot of sense, and thank you for explaining the possible reason behind whitewashing.

enigmawing wrote:You know how hard it was to find a Barbie that had brown hair and blue eyes? Or even a cabbage patch kid with those features? That's what I wanted to connect with, and that was a market simply not being catered to. And when we'd all play superheroes on the playground, my best friend always insisted on being Super Girl because she was blonde. She'd tell me I was "stuck" as another character that wasn't as "pretty," but I loved either being Batgirl or especially Wonder Woman because to me, they were powerful characters with interesting personalities. I used to spin around like Linda Carter in my WW Underoos, lol. So I don't think girls always gravitate to the "pretty" characters, I think they're drawn to characters they feel a connection to. It does often involve physical appearance, but I believe it's something that runs deeper.

Yeah, I know how hard it is because i have brown hair and green eyes. I noticed that there really weren't many dolls that looked like me, but I was totally cool with that because i felt more connected to characters i liked in their respective movies, like ariel and aurora (i always had a thing for blondes anyway, and i'm a blonde today, so yeah). However, here I was talking about the current princess line, which i think pretty much relies on appearance rather than the actual personality of the princess. I thought one of the main attributes of the princess line was how it pretty much strips the princesses of their personalities, making them pretty much the same "perfect princess" except their appearances are different.

Aurora seems to be pretty popular among kids. How many of those kids do you think even saw the movie? I may be wrong, but I don't think Sleeping Beauty is a really popular film for children. Sure, kids will want a doll of the character they most connect to. But because we see aurora so popular, I kinda think a lot of kids also just choose based on looks. Because the merchandise doesn't really tell you much about the princess.

enigmawing wrote:Besides playing princess and superhero, I was more inclined to play business woman. I made a desk out of a box, folded corners of a paper to put on top, and put on a white business shirt. I'd also put my hair up in a bun while wearing my mom's old glasses, and would pound on my "desk" and demand that work get done! Wish I had photos.

Awww. Can't say I did that. That's really precious =').

enigmawing wrote:But I do recall watching the Miss America pageants as a kid and wishing I was Asian because I thought the ladies had beautiful skin, hair, and eyes.

I did the same thing with blonde white women. Asian women are fetishized a lot because of those features, which isn't cool. Nothing wrong with envying those features though.

enigmawing wrote: But many little girls (like my best friend from childhood) seem to lean toward the fantastic, princessy-type blondes more in the lines of Cinderella and Aurora, dressing up and making pretty poses like in the merchandise. And that's exactly the market Disney is catering to with this merchandising.

Oh, i see. So they don't like Tiana as much not because she's black, but because she is a hard worker. And that makes her not super princessy. That's a really cool way to look at it, and you worded it really well. Again, i still think there are many factors here, but I totally see where you are going with this.

Like omg, she looks like a bimbo now.

MickeyMouseboy wrote:Like omg, she looks like a bimbo now.

Who dear?

universALLove wrote:

MickeyMouseboy wrote:Like omg, she looks like a bimbo now.

Who dear?

So many choices to answer with.

All of the new Cinderella dolls feature her new design:
http://d-princesses.livejournal.com/1364854.html

You would think they could just use the silvery blue material of the prince doll and the silvery material on the Holiday Princess doll to make Cinderella's dress colors accurate.

Hey all,

Ok, is it just me or does the Cinderella doll's face has morphed into Barbie's face? Seriously...

I remember when the Belle doll came out in 1991...my cousin got it, and i remember looking at it and thinking "damn, she REALLY looks like she does in the movie!" (unlike her Ariel and eventual Jasmine counterparts...)

I would say that Cinderella looks like Barbie in not just the dolls but also a lot of Disney Princess images. It's sad.

Only at UD could a topic about the Disney Princess merchandise line could turn into an issue of race, demographics, society and the mechanics of digital illustrations. Keep it classy, UD .

But since we are at it, I love Tiana, regardless of color or race (though I find women of color to be stunning), same with my top five princesses. They tend to be the ones I relate to the most in terms of personalities, goals, dreams and ideals, which would be as follows (in no order):

1. Belle: She was the first princess I fell in love with as a kid, and had a crush on her ever since (though, technically, the very first princess ever was Aurora, and I loved her voice more than anything). I relate to her in that we are stuck in a seemingly provincial town that tend to limit our potential due to traditions, and wish to be free from it.

2. Rapunzel: I just love her energy and desire for a better life, and again like Belle, the desire to be free and see a dream come true.

3. Cinderella: To me, she represents the faithful, idealistic side of me, the kind that tries to be happy even when things are at their worst.

4. Tiana: Tiana represents the grounded in reality, but still idealistic, side of me, the side that knows that nothing will ever get done if all you do is dream about it. Yet, it still remembers to take time to have fun and dream a little.

5. Jasmine: She represents my own desire to be free from a lot of things. Plus, she is stunning (like I said, I love women of color).

Here they are, in no order, and hopefully doesn't speak about my own issues of race

Sotiris wrote:

No Tiana, Jasmine, Pocahontas or Mulan. What was the point of making Tiana at all when you're going to pretend that she doesn't exist at all Disney ?