DVDizzy Forum

Well old studio/talent relationships were much different than they are today.

Even though I'm not sure he could ever reach the creative heights of his earlier works (because of how great they were), I'd still like to see Menken get the chance to do another Disney film someday. Being so obsessed with that idea to the point of treating every other composer like a talentless nobody is what bothers me, especially when the songwriters in question are actually celebrated and fresh voices in the industry. Disney isn't risky or stupid enough to hire some random off the street because of some sort of nepotism.

Everyone just wants everything to be like the 90s, even though that formula becoming stale to audiences helped lead to the dire string of Disney films in the 2000s :shudder: It could happen again, so I'm glad it seems they're trying something new and original for the music in Moana (Miranda's other work is distinct from an average Broadway show).


As for the Lopezes, they were OBVIOUSLY going to do another film after Frozen's success. It seems people are disappointed because they expected the Lopezes would do Moana and maybe Menken would get to do this? Was that based on anything or are we upset over nothing?

Lady Cluck wrote: Everyone just wants everything to be like the 90s, even though that formula becoming stale to audiences helped lead to the dire string of Disney films in the 2000s :shudder:

Yeah, but the music was not the problem with those films. And it looks like every new movie from Disney is going to be a Broadway-esque musical, too. Even Pixar's Coco is a musical now. Well, there isn't much of any difference between the studios now that one person runs them both.

I, personally, had already resigned myself to the fact that Menken is persona non grata at Disney a while ago, so I didn't expect him for anything. I think it's more likely to see Newman again because Lasseter LOVES him. I've settled myself into snarky comments.

Moreover, I still think everyone's haranguing Sotiris over a moment's quick choice of words, mostly exaggerated (in another thread). I personally didn't know who the guy working on Moana is myself right off, although I've heard of In the Heights.

Frankly, I'm tired of this contrived conspiracy theory that the Big Bad John Lasseter has a personal vendetta against Alan Menken and is the only force stopping him from working on every Disney film. For God's sakes, Alan Menken has had more projects with the company in the past 5 years than he had in the ten years prior. I mean, why are people taking it so personally that other songwriting teams are being brought in over Menken?

I mean, Menken scored my childhood, too, but the plotline people are attempting to string together is enough to be its own Disney fairy tale.

UmbrellaFish wrote:Frankly, I'm tired of this contrived conspiracy theory that the Big Bad John Lasseter has a personal vendetta against Alan Menken and is the only force stopping him from working on every Disney film.

I don't think it's contrived or a conspiracy. Besides, Disney doesn't have to issue a statement for things to be understood. Sometimes the writing's on the wall. Nobody's painting Lasseter as a Dark Lord and I'm sure his decision isn't personal (even if misguided).

UmbrellaFish wrote:I mean, Menken scored my childhood, too, but the plotline people are attempting to string together is enough to be its own Disney fairy tale.

I found this picture of Alan Menken watching on as John Lasseter and the Lopezes destroy the Disney Company:

Hear. An image every Disney Renaissance fan can't stand! The mere sight of this image disgust them!

http://41.media.tumblr.com/bb5f40ced478 ... 1_1280.jpg

Disney's Divinity wrote:I disagree that they are comparable. For one, the Sherman Brothers more of an exclusivity at Disney in their day that Menken didn't have. For another, the Sherman Brothers didn't really fit with the change to a Broadway sound found in O&C, TLM, and onwards. The new films are still Broadway, so the change doesn't really make sense. I don't think there's anyone who thinks Disney shouldn't explore new composers like the Lopezes (who I was happy to see were involved with Frozen when they were first announced) or other new talent, but that there's no reason Menken can't still occasionally do a film here and there either. I guess I could understand them not using him if he doesn't fit the sound they're going for (like Moana going with the Polynesian vibe, for instance), but on the whole they aren't going for a different sound, and he could do score even if not songs. It feels more like, "You're leftover from the old regime so we don't want you."

There've been some strange ageist overtones to this discussion about Menken. I guess most of you think regular workers should basically be fired for no other reason than management decides "they've had their time"...

My thoughts exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Lady Cluck wrote:Being so obsessed with that idea to the point of treating every other composer like a talentless nobody is what bothers me, especially when the songwriters in question are actually celebrated and fresh voices in the industry.

Except that I didn't say he was talentless or that he won't do a good job. Disney didn't hire a seasoned Broadway veteran but someone who's (relatively) new to musical theater with only a few projects under his belt. Hence, why I used the hyperbole of "nobody". I didn't realize that would cause every Broadway fan in a 5-mile radius to come out of the woodwork to attack me.

And I would be more OK with it if, let's say, the directors saw one of his musicals or somehow were familiar with his work and wanted him to come on board instead of the Lopezes recommending him.

UmbrellaFish wrote:Frankly, I'm tired of this contrived conspiracy theory that the Big Bad John Lasseter has a personal vendetta against Alan Menken and is the only force stopping him from working on every Disney film.

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's pretty clear that Lasseter doesn't like Menken. Here are the facts:

• Menken was developing an animated musical at WDAS before the Pixar acquisition. When Lasseter took over the studio, he canned it.
• He replaced Menken with Randy Newman for The Princess and the Frog.
• He replaced Menken with Robert Lopez for Frozen.
• He hired Menken to do Tangled because Menken had a reputation of writing songs quickly and they were pressed for time after the movie was retooled.
• On Tangled he was not allowed to do a full-blown musical and had little creative freedom. He was instructed to execute the directors' ideas and had little to no input. Comparatively, the Lopezes were given the go-ahead to do a traditional musical, and were afforded a creative carte blanche. The filmmakers rewrote the entire film based on their ideas for the character of Elsa.
• The studio didn't use the end credits song he wrote for Tangled and instead went with a song that wasn't even an original piece.
• He wasn't brought back to score the short Tangled Ever After even though John Powell was brought back to score Super Rhino and Christophe Beck to score Frozen Fever.
• Every commercially successful film at WDAS under Lasseter is getting a sequel except for Tangled.
• He hasn't been offered any other animated musical even though Tangled was the first successful film under Lasseter and it ushered a new interest in musicals as well as a string of successes for WDAS. Without Tangled, there wouldn't have been Frozen.
• Every other composer or songwriter who worked with Lasseter was offered at least one more project afterwards.
• Lasseter is a notorious micro-manager and every little detail requires his approval. If he wanted Menken, he would have gotten him.

UmbrellaFish wrote:For God's sakes, Alan Menken has had more projects with the company in the past 5 years than he had in the ten years prior.

That's because Lasseter has no authority over Disney's live-action and TV divisions.

DisneyEra wrote:Hear. An image every Disney Renaissance fan can't stand! The mere sight of this image disgust them!

http://41.media.tumblr.com/bb5f40ced478 ... 1_1280.jpg

Not me, I like this!

Sotiris wrote:It's not a conspiracy theory. It's pretty clear that Lasseter doesn't like Menken. Here are the facts.

Oy vey. None of that proves Lasseter has a personal vendetta against Menken. It only proves that Menken has not been hired since Tangled, for whatever reason. Or reasons. You don't know why. You take sound bites and tweets and make them paint this picture, but it's all based on supposition. Why all the vitriol? It's folly to take business decisions and art so personally.

DisneyEra wrote:Hear. An image every Disney Renaissance fan can't stand! The mere sight of this image disgust them!

http://41.media.tumblr.com/bb5f40ced478 ... 1_1280.jpg

You know, you're right. Looking at it DOES disgust me.

The only thing inaccurate about that picture is that Princess and the Frog shouldn't be in it, because that and Winnie the Pooh were the only true revivals of Disney animation.

Everything else has been a farce.

I wouldn't say Tangled piqued much interest in musicals in general. It barely even feels like a musical, but rather a movie with some songs, and the songs didn't even come close to reaching the cultural phenomenon status of the music of the Renaissance films and Frozen. The soundtrack peaked at #44 on Billboard and then fell off the map so there wasn't much interest in that part of an otherwise successful film.

Now maybe it increased interest in traditional Disney fairy tale films again, I'll give you that, but Frozen is where Disney took that extra step to make the music a fully engaging centerpiece of their films again. (And yes, I KNOW Menken wanted to do more with Tangled than he was ultimately allowed but the finished product is what it was)

It did win a Grammy award though !

Looking at what it was nominated against in that category, I'm glad Seth MacFarlane and Diane Warren will never write songs for a Disney film

Atlantica wrote:It did win a Grammy award though !

And was nominated for an Oscar. Whatever everyone here's thoughts may be (myself included), the soundtrack for Tangled wasn't exactly panned.

UmbrellaFish wrote:You don't know why.

And neither do you. Everyone has a right to their opinion. *shrug*

DisneyEra wrote:An image every Disney Renaissance fan can't stand!

I don't think that's true. The only things I hate about that picture are Flynn and Zootopia.

Disney's Divinity wrote:

UmbrellaFish wrote:You don't know why.

And neither do you. Everyone has a right to their opinion. *shrug*

I never said I did, and I never said otherwise.

UmbrellaFish wrote:Frankly, I'm tired of this contrived conspiracy theory that the Big Bad John Lasseter has a personal vendetta against Alan Menken and is the only force stopping him from working on every Disney film. For God's sakes, Alan Menken has had more projects with the company in the past 5 years than he had in the ten years prior. I mean, why are people taking it so personally that other songwriting teams are being brought in over Menken?

I mean, Menken scored my childhood, too, but the plotline people are attempting to string together is enough to be its own Disney fairy tale.

I couldn't agree more with you, I'm bored to tears with the Lasseter stuff.

I enjoy Menken's work but I also enjoy seeing new talent come into the fold and try to make their own mark at Disney.

UmbrellaFish wrote:Oy vey. None of that proves Lasseter has a personal vendetta against Menken. It only proves that Menken has not been hired since Tangled, for whatever reason. Or reasons. You don't know why. You take sound bites and tweets and make them paint this picture, but it's all based on supposition.

Of course this is only my own assessment of the situation. It's merely an educated guess based on the information available. What did you expect? A press release from Disney? Actions speak louder than words. If you collaborate with someone on a successful product, you'd naturally want to work with them again. If you don't, there's obviously a reason. And I never claimed Lasseter has a "personal vebdetta" against him. I just said he doesn't like him. Either he doesn't like him as a collaborator or he doesn't like his work. Maybe he thinks Menken's style is old-fashioned and doesn't have anything new to offer. In any case, it's clear he doesn't want to work with him again.

New, simpler concept art of Spain:

http://thedisneyblog.com/wp-content/upl ... cept-1.jpg

Hear. An image every Disney Renaissance fan can't stand! The mere sight of this image disgust them!

You know what? It might be naive to say this, but I thought the Renaissance fans appreciated the Revival era well, considering the similarities. Though I could be wrong.

disneyprincess11 wrote:New, simpler concept art of Spain

That one was actually more true to real life Spain.

its ok...its a little too cutsey looking...looks like theyre gonna Barbie movie-cize this version of Spain. Like how they did Norway in Frozen.

I would prefer something more like the Spain scenes in The Road to El Dorado. Now that was SPAIN!