DVDizzy Forum

I don't interpret it that way. And the Bible is still allowed to use more than one definition of the word day.

Day, however...only has one meaning at any given time

So, what's the problem? It only meant "A period of history; an era," during the creation.

I do believe it. there wasnt even a 24 hr day when everything was created. Days didn't exist back in creation. 1,000 years for each phase of creation is very scientific and believable. God might be all powerful but to create universes, stars, sun, humans, atmosphere, animals, plants, water, and then carefully balancing every aspect of creation so it wont go to chaos takes more than seven 24 hr days!

Ugh, what the hell? All these posts in a matter of seconds apart? And then we have the annoying off-topicness from MMB.

Anyway.

Christian wrote:I still think I worded everything correctly but in case I didn't, allow me to clarify. I was simply saying that there are people who believe in the existence of God AND who acknowledge that dinosaurs have been on the earth. They don't think it has to be one or the other.

Ugh. I REALIZE THAT YOU WORDED IT CORRECTLY. IT IS YOU WHO IS NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT I AM SAYING. I am perfectly aware that people acknowledge that dinosaurs and God can both exist. I am one of them. But the people that DON'T acknowledge that are called atheists. And that was what I was explaining in my previous post. Please understand this time.

Christian wrote:And whatever knowledge can be gained from them is good. Are you saying that we now know EVERYTHING that is possible to know about the history of the earth and all the lifeforms that have been on it and that there are no ideas which we hold now that will ever be replaced with more correct and accurate ones and that there is no more room for scientific research and discovery?

There is nothing that makes me more p/oed on a message board than people sticking words in my mouth. I am saying the fossil records help us understand the time in which the dinosaurs lived and when the earliest humans lived. THAT IN NO WAY SUGGESTS THAT IT CAN'T BE IMPROVED OR THAT SUDDENLY EVERYTHING NOW IS SUDDENLY KNOWN! I don't even know how you came up with that. There is always more room for scientific research and discovery. And I think I can say that as science researcher.

Here's to hoping that this discussion doesn't get swayed in the direction MMB and Christian are taking it. If you guys are willing to partake here at least read the whole thread through, and then read a post clearly before replying to it. It's good that there are more people participating, but it is bad if it just creates a flame war.

Loomis wrote:

awallaceunc wrote:Just a technical note. Genesis actually starts out by telling us that the earth existed before what is known as "creation." It was just a dark void. Then God created light and all that jazz, on down to us.

Yes, but all within a matter of 7 days (or 6 actually).
If you believe the scientific version, those events were millions of years apart.

Well, the earth itself existed before those 7 days took place. For millions/billions of years? I don't really know. If that's what science says, then fine, it doesn't conflict with Scripture. It doesn't really matter to me (but then, I was never really fascinated by the subject of science )

PrinceAli wrote:Not only that, but some insects don't live for even a year, a lot of them can only survive a few days...and they still live today.

Who said reproduction didn't occur on the ark?

PrinceAli wrote:Well you wouldn't know how the Tower of Babel was constructed based on Biblical belief. It would require so many miracles...how a population grew so rapidly from 2 people. How so many different tongues were formed within 110-150 years. Again, this to me, was just another fable passed down. The moral to show that arguing and fighting between the different tongues is wrong and they couldn't achieve their common goal of constructing the Tower of Babel.

No, everyone spoke the same language prior to the tower's destruction. It was after the destruction that God instituted the different languages. So they wouldn't have been formed within that time period (and again, your timing doesn't quite take into account the age of people). And where are you getting 2 people from? The moral, if you want to call it that, was that they were able to achieve the tower that reached to Heaven because they were able to unify.

I find the statement "it would require so many miracles..." interesting. So one miracle you can handle, but two or more gets a little too crazy?

PrinceAli wrote:Thanks for listening...

Ditto.

PrinceAli wrote:You are contradicting the very story you are trying to support. You suggest that "all the other animals that were flooded and killed became extinct because of the Flood, while Genesis repeatedly says that Noah was ordered to take a representative sample of all kinds of land animals on the Ark to save them from extinction, and that Noah did as ordered.

No, I didn't say that the species became extinct. Obviously, the animals not in the ark would be killed in the flood.

PrinceAli wrote:And if dinosaurs continued to live after the flood, wouldn't you think people would have some written record about them, besides the biblical Word? And if there is as you claim, please show me some..I can't find anything.

Off the top of my head, Job 40:15. There are others, I'd have to research them (I'm no Jack Van Impe ).

PrinceAli wrote:It is almost as hard to believe no one wrote about them living amongst humans than it is to believe that there is no mention of the Flood in the records of Egyptian or Mesopotamian civilizations which existed at the time.

Well, not a tremendous number of people were writing things then, and what was written was rarely looked after with the care required for surviving millenia. There are countless references, documents, and stories about the global flood, though. I've even read a few of them from different countries/cultures.

PrinceAli wrote:Some Christians believe that the none of the Dinosaurs could make it to the "high ground" with the elephants and became died out then, and you have a differing belief.

Nay. I was offering a common theory. Quite frankly, I don't care about what happened to the dinosaurs, so I don't really side with one over the other.

PrinceAli wrote:Well, I suggest you re-read Dan. 4:10-11, Matt. 4:8, 1 Chron. 16:30, and Psalms 93:1. And no, I am not taking these out of context either.

Daniel 4:10-11 - Daniel clearly states that he was seeing a vision, not reality
Matthew 4:8 - In no way does this suggest the earth was flat. There weren't too many kingdoms of the world at the time. Even if it was flat (though obviously with mountains), you wouldn't be able to see but so far.
1 Chronicles 16:30 - Firmly established and immovable means flat? Don't think so.
Psalms 93:1 - Ditto to 1 Chronicles.

PrinceAli wrote:Aaron, with all due respect...people did NOT live longer back then. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. People are even starting to live longer than hundreds of years ago because of a healthier diet and way of living.

I'm not talking a few hundred or even three thousand years ago. I'm speaking in terms of the time between Adam & Eve to the Tower of Babel. People lived to be hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years old. There is no solid evidence to the contrary for that, and it makes good sense, as well.

PrinceAli wrote:Awwww that's cute. Where did you find this? I don't think it ever really STATES that a day to God is like a million years. That is an interpretation.

It's a thousand years, actually, and it states it twice:

"For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night." - Psalm 90:4

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." - 2 Peter 3:8

But then the question becomes 'does Genesis refer to one day in human years ( ) or God years?'

-Aaron

Christian wrote:So, what's the problem? It only meant "A period of history; an era," during the creation.

The problem is that when God says something means 1000 years, it is 1000 years. You can't change that, it would be denying God his truth. So it clearly meant 7,000 years, not any period of time. Humans however, have adopted the use of day as 24 hours.

Christian wrote:And the Bible is still allowed to use more than one definition of the word day.

Are you suggesting that God contradicts himself? I'm not arguing that he doesn't in the Bible, but many will.

MickeyMouseBoy wrote:I do believe it. there wasnt even a 24 hr day when everything was created. Days didn't exist back in creation. 1,000 years for each phase of creation is very scientific and believable. God might be all powerful but to create universes, stars, sun, humans, atmosphere, animals, plants, water, and then carefully balancing every aspect of creation so it wont go to chaos takes more than seven 24 hr days!

I feel bad for you if you think it took only 7,000 years to create everything. That is borderline insanity right there, that is. But again, believe that if you want.

Quick question: In which book is the story of Adam and Eve? I want to read the story. I also need to read the first book of the Bible. Thanks for the info Escapay.

Words can and do have more than one definition and anybody (Prince Ali and God included) is allowed to use any definition they want at any time they want. It has nothing to do with being contradictory.

Hebrew word "Yowm" use in genesis 1:5 translated as Day

Ge 1:5

God called the light day(1), and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day(1b).




"Yown" has many definitions:

-day, time, year
-day (as opposed to night)
-day (24 hour period)
a. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis (1)
b. as a division of time (1b)
- a working day, a day's journey
- days, lifetime (pl.)
- time, period (general)
- year
- temporal references
a. today
b. yesterday
c. tomorrow


2Pe 3:8

"But do not let this one escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day."


Here the Greek word "Hemera" translated for Day means a literal 24 hr day.

- the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night
in the daytime

- metaph., "the day" is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime, because acts of the sort are perpetrated at night and in darkness

- of the civil day, or the space of twenty four hours (thus including the night)

a. Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression "three days and three nights" does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days.

-of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom

-used of time in general, i.e. the days of his life.

Starion wrote:Quick question: In which book is the story of Adam and Eve? I want to read the story. I also need to read the first book of the Bible. Thanks for the info Escapay.

You're in luck! Adam & Eve are in the first book of the Bible, which is Genesis.! In fact, they are at the very beginning of it (well, you won't actually come across Adam until chapter 2, and Eve shortly thereafter. Hope that helps!

PrinceAli wrote:I feel bad for you if you think it took only 7,000 years to create everything. That is borderline insanity right there, that is. But again, believe that if you want.

Ah, I do so enjoy attacking others' beliefs as borderline insanity and other non-constructive attacks!



-Aaron

Alright, since this really started to spiral out of control, I'll reply to Aaron after I get some sleep. But I need to finish this little quarrel with Christian.

Christian wrote:Words can and do have more than one definition and anybody (Prince Ali and God included) are allowed to use any definition they want at any time they want. It has nothing to do with being contradictory.

Wow, words have more than one definition? Amazing! I think I even said that previously! But let me ask you....Do you know anyone who still uses the term day nowadays (no pun intended) to mean 1000 years? Right now people use the solitary definition of 24 hours.

But it is contradictory for God to say that it means 1000 years, but then say 24 hours.

awallaceunc wrote:Ah, I do so enjoy attacks others' beliefs as borderline insanity and other non-constructive attacks!

It is not an attack, and it isn't a belief either. We know for a fact that animals and plants existed more than 7,000 years ago!

You got me. I'm down for the count.

Christian wrote:You got me. I'm down for the count.

Another one bites the dust!

J/K Christian, you were a worthy contender. But lets not think this as a competition as I just did, it is simply a discussion. Whether you win or lose, it is how you play the game.

I understand. It's just talk. I'm sure everyone here is a peacable person and can keep arguments at the discussion level, without escalating them to physical force or violence.

awallaceunc wrote: Well, the earth itself existed before those 7 days took place. For millions/billions of years? I don't really know. If that's what science says, then fine, it doesn't conflict with Scripture. It doesn't really matter to me (but then, I was never really fascinated by the subject of science )

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." - 2 Peter 3:8

But then the question becomes 'does Genesis refer to one day in human years ( ) or God years?'

-Aaron

first answer for Genesis 1:1 it says "God created the heavens and the earth"

"Shamayim" hebrew word for Heaven in Gen 1:1

-heaven, heavens, sky
-visible heavens, sky
a. as abode of the stars
b. as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
- Heaven (as the abode of God)

God created the universe, stars, atmosphere and earth but like you said the earth was a dark void and creation of living sustaining elements started.

for the second answer. God inspired the bible so what's written in it are his thoughts. The answer is clear to what day God was talking about not a 24 hr day since he letter cleared stated that a human year for him is 1,000. I believe servants of God in that day knew this and believed it too.

Christian wrote:I understand. It's just talk. I'm sure everyone here is a peacable person and can keep arguments at the discussion level, without escalating them to physical force or violence.

I agree. But furthermore, I do hope many of the way off-topic posts coming from MMB will stop soon. They have no place in this discussion. And I think most people know what posts I am talking about. If we can eliminate that, we'll do alright.

I don't get too hung up on the length of the days in the creation. It could mean twenty-four hours, or a thousand years, or something longer . . . or something none of us have thought of yet. There's no problem with believing it to be one thing (or likely to be one of the definitions but possibly one of the other ones) as long as you are prepared to accept the truth whenever you find it out.

PrinceAli wrote:I agree. But furthermore, I do hope many of the way off-topic posts coming from MMB will stop soon. They have no place in this discussion. And I think most people know what posts I am talking about. If we can eliminate that, we'll do alright.

no we don't would you like to point them out?

MickeyMouseBoy wrote:no we don't would you like to point them out?

Cause I am a nice guy, I went through the trouble of doing this. But let me just say this: You speak only for yourself here, and I don't think anyone is going to agree that the following quotes from you in this thread were the least bit useful..except to provide us with laughter until it got to the point where it was annoying, and then it got to the point where people are thinking you went insane.

So here they are "folks"

MickeyMouseBoy wrote:I nominate this Thread as the most controversial of 2004! Now back to your scheduled programming..........

MickeyMouseBoy wrote:Does that mean Loomis World of Horror might make it's come back soon?

MickeyMouseBoy wrote:Now a word from out sponsors:


"less of a masterpiece" - The Loomis Times

"A wondeful religious experience" - Aaron Today

"A bloody bath of blood" - The Herald Netty

"A utterly misleading movie" - The MMB Tribune

Coming on Aug 31st On DVD and VHS "The Passion of Christ" Own it Today!

MickeyMouseBoy wrote:Thank you for joining us in the 2nd annual religion debate here on Ultimatedisney.com! Aaron and Loomis are on the lead. Who will win this debate? Does God really exist or is he a idea that has been passed from generation to generation. before we get back to our discussion here's a word from our sponsors!


Bible o matic

Can't find a scripture? Is a loomis kicking your bum on a debate? Jesuslovesyou interprises has the solution. A voice activated bible! no more wondering, no more flipping pages! are the small letters making you lose your sight? Bible o matic comes with a built in light and magnifier! if that's not enough bible o matic connects to your computer bia USB port! download new ideologies, story and even new verses each month!


you can enjoy the bible 0 matic with just 3 easy payment of $49.99 plus S&H plus wait! if you call within the next 15 min you can get the carrying case absolutely free! call 1-800-jess4all.


Now back to our debate!

MickeyMouseBoy wrote:Duh, that's the whole reason behind this.........


Anyways Round 2 was a very wild round. Loomis Vs Prince Ali was a very hard battle but Loomis always comes out victorious. Aaron join the league of prince ali and paka in attacking MMB. Ms Poco Dearest joined in the discussion will she be the key to stopping all this? Also we see an apperance by Netty2099. Round 3 officially begins now!

Now I hope Luke moves some of these posts or all of them to a different thread.

Loomis wrote:Unless you are starting to have a problem with the content, I think this should run its own course. It is still basically a conversation about the bible and faith, with an occasional aside (which actually stops us from going at each others throats, I think). So far it has been fun and engaging, and should only be stopped at the point of name-calling. It IS an off-topic section, after all.

The fans are raving

MickeyMouseboy wrote:

Loomis wrote:Unless you are starting to have a problem with the content, I think this should run its own course. It is still basically a conversation about the bible and faith, with an occasional aside (which actually stops us from going at each others throats, I think). So far it has been fun and engaging, and should only be stopped at the point of name-calling. It IS an off-topic section, after all.

The fans are raving

Although I haven't been actively posting in this thread, I have checked in from time to time reading what you're all saying, and I know how MMB's posts could become annoying, but I for one find them hilarious. Just like Loomis said, it's like a little refreshing humour break before returning to the discussion; almost like watching an episode of Frasier before returning to work. It's those kind of breaks that brings you back energy, and remind you that it's only a discussion; not Parliament Hill or (?) Congressional session. Sad thing is, it's those breaks that could've saved millions of Star Wars fanboys from being stuck in eternal Lucas "just keep milking" hell behind their comps, editing their SW fan film dressed in a Darth Vader costume.