DVDizzy Forum

Chaz wrote:I can't believe it's 2011 and people still believe that homosexuality can be "cured."

rediculous isnt it?

i used to work with a born again guy. he was a real nice guy til i moved in with my then girlfriend. within minutes of hearing the news, he became a right ass who made my work life near impossible, i ended up quitting after nearly smacking him over the head with a 9kg lpg bottle.
he would refuse to allow me breaks, or time off the till. 12 hour shifts, so bathroom and food "breaks" were far and few between. it took me 4 hours to eat one sandwich, and that was the first food id had since 7am and the last i would get till 7pm. hed also scream at me from across the petrol station and put me down every chance he got. it was like "i am man! im right, even though im actually wrong. you are woman, you are wrong even though youre right."

i now work with a born again woman at a different job. ive got caught up in several debates [she truly believes humans didnt exist until 2000-odd years ago, never mind the human remains from 10,000 years ago. i found that out after saying i wanted a tail, hehehe] but at least she doesnt preach and try to convert me, and she doesnt put me down about my sexuality. equally i dont knock her beliefs. we know they are a part of each other and no amount of hatred/arguing will change either of us. its probably easier since ive not had a partner for several years, but even if i do find one i wont be flaunting her at work.

Linden wrote:

Goliath wrote:You're insulting a great many people on UD, by saying they're sinning.

Just because I believe homosexuality is a sin, it doesn't mean anyone else has to. It shouldn't be offensive.

Goliath wrote:You know what's going on in South-Africa? Lesbian women are getting GANG-RAPED by men who believe they will "cure" these women this way. I'm *obviously* not saying this is something you condone, but your reasoning is *exactly* the kind of reasoning used by these men and the people 'Jack' has to fear. You and your religion are providing them with the ammunition they need.

WHAT? With my religion, I'm giving South Africans ammunition to gang-rape lesbian women?? I really don't follow your reasoning there. How is my reasoning the same? I haven't even said anything on my opinions of "curing" homosexuals. Just that there have been instances of GLBTs giving up homosexuality.

You're the reason many people consider Christians to be stuffed prudes. It really is people like you who put give Christianity a bad name As a Christian, I'm ashamed that my own religion that prides itself on helping others has caused little more than pain for billions of people over a couple thousand years. i learned a long time ago to take everything the bible says with a grain of salt, cuz if those stories weren't altered, but weren't in a book called "the Bible", they'd be labelled as fiction.

I'm no atheist, and I'm not even gay, but none of your posts on this have an ounce of common sense. it's the same reason most adults act like children. making fun of and hurting other kids that arent like them.

grow up.

and I wont even mention some of the things I heard about Jesus. He is a subjective topic as well.

Linden wrote:

Goliath wrote:You're insulting a great many people on UD, by saying they're sinning.

Just because I believe homosexuality is a sin, it doesn't mean anyone else has to. It shouldn't be offensive.

Goliath wrote:You know what's going on in South-Africa? Lesbian women are getting GANG-RAPED by men who believe they will "cure" these women this way. I'm *obviously* not saying this is something you condone, but your reasoning is *exactly* the kind of reasoning used by these men and the people 'Jack' has to fear. You and your religion are providing them with the ammunition they need.

WHAT? With my religion, I'm giving South Africans ammunition to gang-rape lesbian women?? I really don't follow your reasoning there. How is my reasoning the same? I haven't even said anything on my opinions of "curing" homosexuals. Just that there have been instances of GLBTs giving up homosexuality.

It's obvious that those people use the same reasoning that you do to justify their crimes and violations. YOU alone didnt have a hand in it. That's stupid. Only that those rapists have a similar view of gays.

One thing I want to point out that it seems people here hardly bring up is that Islam fundamentalist are more cruel, brutal, and harsh towards gays than you would find from a Christian in this time. small riots or backlash probably worst gays would receive(in general) if in America or UK. But in Islamic countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc, you'd get stoned, brutally killed or some other capital punishment. Jack Skellington's dilemma he's facing, is an example.

Linden wrote:Just that there have been instances of GLBTs giving up homosexuality.

you can stop the act of you know, same sex relationships, but you can never stop actually being gay. Even if people claim they changed or are cured. Society forces people to do this. It's their way of surviving (our #1 instinct). To some, a life that includes judgement and ridicule every single day is unbearable.

You are not gay, stop pretending you know what you're talking about and move on. There are many gay people on this forum and talking about 'instances of people giving up on homosexuality' is very offensive to those who've struggled coming to terms with something they couldn't change in a million years.

Linden wrote:Just because I believe homosexuality is a sin, it doesn't mean anyone else has to. It shouldn't be offensive.

WHAT? With my religion, I'm giving South Africans ammunition to gang-rape lesbian women?? I really don't follow your reasoning there. How is my reasoning the same? I haven't even said anything on my opinions of "curing" homosexuals. Just that there have been instances of GLBTs giving up homosexuality.

If you don't get this, I give up...

Super Aurora wrote:One thing I want to point out that it seems people here hardly bring up is that Islam fundamentalist are more cruel, brutal, and harsh towards gays than you would find from a Christian in this time. small riots or backlash probably worst gays would receive(in general) if in America or UK. But in Islamic countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc, you'd get stoned, brutally killed or some other capital punishment. Jack Skellington's dilemma he's facing, is an example.

Once an extremist muslim joins this board and starts saying the same shit Linden is saying, you bet I'll smack his ass. In this thread, we're discussing with fundamentalist Christians about whether or not there should be a gay couple in a Disney film --that's mostly about the reactions of the American audience, which is on average, Christian.

Allah says you are all a bunch of sinners! Down with homosexuality!!!




j/k

But back on topic, if you want to see a gay/lesbian couple in a Disney movie go into a theater and look around. If you don't see a gay/lesbian couple, keep going to see Disney movies until you actually see them.

Prince Edward, thank you for defending me. I didn't like and don't agree with what you said about the Bible, I still hold something from it, but thank you for all the rest.

Goliath, you just need a big thank you from me for everything you said. Well, okay I didn't agree with every single thing you said, either, but that doesn't change that you deserve a huge thank you. I especially liked when you said you can't disagree with how someone is, that's a really good, revealing way of putting it.

Linden, when someone brings up important things related to a topic, it is perfectly fine to discuss it, and some issues we feel are too important not to address. Maybe you didn't read the other things I said, but if I must say them here I will. From the time I was little, I felt a certain wya about boys that I couldn't explain, only now that I'm older do I know it was because I was born gay. When I told my cosuin and aunt, who helped raise me when my mother couldn't, they laughingly said "they knew since I was 5". And my aunt is a rather devout Christian.

Do you have a favorite color? You just like that color, right? And you can't change it? Do you like the opposite sex in a romantic way? If you do, you can't change it, right? That's the same it is for me. I didn't choose that my favorite colors are pink and purple or that I get certain romantic and sexual feelings for boys that I've never gotten from girls. I didn't choose it. My cousin, who grew up with me, knows I didn't choose it. And you thinking I did is and that I'm bad because of who I am is very hurtful.

When you try to become gay, and you actually feel you successfully have become gay just to try that out, then we'll talk.

The people that say they have given it up are probably just trying as hard as they can to not be gay when they still are. They probably aren't very happy inside though they probably are trying to seem so on the outside.

But you're not gay. You don't really know how it is. But here's someone who is telling you how it is, honestly. Not pretending, like those people who say they were gay but changed. There's a reason they would want to pretend, for the same reasons Jack Skelington went to therapy, which didn't work on him, but he had to keep pretending. But there's no reason I would want to pretend since I'd love to be able to not worry about who I am. But I am who I am, gay, and I can't change it, sad as that is. But it doesn't have to be sad, because people like you and everyone else in here opposed to it can stop telling us we're wrong for it, but if I can't have that, at least I still have the feeling of God's love for me as I am, gay.

maerj, very well said!!

as for muslims, yes they are a million times worse than christians, but their religion isnt as far reaching as christianity. im yet to work with a muslim, but ive worked with a number of christians, flatted with two who had a 3 babies out of wedlock [then gave me shit cos im a vegetarian who wears second hand leather jackets on my motorbike] and even dated a catholic.

besides, from what i know about the christians of old, their cruelty would have been at least as bad as muslim, only now there are laws to prevent burning at the stake and witch drownings.

sunhuntin wrote: but their religion isnt as far reaching as christianity. im yet to work with a muslim,

WTF you talking about? You even know how wide spread Islam is? There is about 1.57 billion muslims in the world. That's about 23% of world's population.

Granted Christianity is the highest atm, Islam is ranked second, and is still growing fast.

Final warning before I close the thread. It seems to me that this discussion has become populated with gross generalizations and "I'm right/you're wrong" arguments. Please either learn how to deal with differing opinions or stick to conversations about slipcovers and dress colors. Seriously, guys.

Maerj ---

Super Aurora wrote:

sunhuntin wrote: but their religion isnt as far reaching as christianity. im yet to work with a muslim,

WTF you talking about? You even know how wide spread Islam is? There is about 1.57 billion muslims in the world. That's about 23% of world's population.

Granted Christianity is the highest atm, Islam is ranked second, and is still growing fast.

honestly, i didnt know that. my country is small, so i guess because ive never met one here, i assume it to be the same in other countries aside from where it orignates. sorry for the muck up.

sunhuntin wrote:

Super Aurora wrote: WTF you talking about? You even know how wide spread Islam is? There is about 1.57 billion muslims in the world. That's about 23% of world's population.

Granted Christianity is the highest atm, Islam is ranked second, and is still growing fast.

honestly, i didnt know that. my country is small, so i guess because ive never met one here, i assume it to be the same in other countries aside from where it orignates. sorry for the muck up.

ah i see. no prob. just to inform, i was angry or yelling when making the comment. just don't want give wrong impression that was attacking you or anything.

You can't change your sexuality, they took me to a phsycholigist, a psychiatrist, and a hypnotherapist. The phsychologist didn't know how to help so he just led me to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist was honest enough to explain to me that what I had was congential, and hormone therapy would not help, but she told me for my sake that I should lie and pretend to be "cured". I tried but I eventually didn't, and next thing you know they started considering taking me to prison. But before that they decided on taking me to a hypnotherapist, as my last resort. (Maybe exorcism would be the next.. but I doubt that they'd be that insane, but I sure as hell don't want to find out.) I'm just pretending right now, and the curtain isn't gonna fall anytime soon. I just hope these three years end quickly.
FYI: the Koran doesn't mention homosexuality explicitly, neither does the Bible. I've grown up to beleave that I'm going to hell because of what people made me beleave, cause who in his right state of mind would create something just to cause it pain, and still consider himself to be good ?
After all this I still beleave in God, just so you know.

Jack Skellington wrote:You can't change your sexuality, they took me to a phsycholigist, a psychiatrist, and a hypnotherapist. The phsychologist didn't know how to help so he just led me to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist was honest enough to explain to me that what I had was congential, and hormone therapy would not help, but she told me for my sake that I should lie and pretend to be "cured". I tried but I eventually didn't, and next thing you know they started considering taking me to prison. But before that they decided on taking me to a hypnotherapist, as my last resort. (Maybe exorcism would be the next.. but I doubt that they'd be that insane, but I sure as hell don't want to find out.) I'm just pretending right now, and the curtain isn't gonna fall anytime soon. I just hope these three years end quickly.
FYI: the Koran doesn't mention homosexuality explicitly, neither does the Bible. I've grown up to beleave that I'm going to hell because of what people made me beleave, cause who in his right state of mind would create something just to cause it pain, and still consider himself to be good ?
After all this I still beleave in God, just so you know.

you have my respect.

I hope you can make it through and find love. Once you do, you won't look back. I know I didn't.

sunhuntin wrote:as for muslims, yes they are a million times worse than christians,

Well, that's a rather big generalization. (Yes, I know, I do that with Christians all the time.) Muslims certainly seem to be portrayed in our media as "being a million time worse", but a lot of that is over-exaggerated. Like with Christians, the minority of crackpots is the most vocal --and thus interesting to the media. I don't think Islam or the Qu'ran in itself are more radical or dangerous than Christianity and the Bible. The difference is most Christians live in free, developed, democratic societies, whereas most muslims live in oppressive, impoverished (US-backed) dictatorships... and that's going to leave traces. Christianity only tamed down after the West experienced the Enlightenment, and we can't experience Enlightenment in underdeveloped, poor countries with illiterate populations.

Most Western muslims are no different from Western Christians. You often read in the newspapers about repressive parents who oppress their children, mostly their daughters, in this 'new' world they now live in, but that's only one side of the story. My girlfriend's parents are nothing like that, and they have no objections about their daughter dating a non-muslim man. So there are many different types of muslims, as there are different kinds of Christians.

(I have to get back to the hyperbole, before people start thinking I've become reasonable and nuanced.)

Disney Duster wrote:Goliath, you just need a big thank you from me for everything you said. Well, okay I didn't agree with every single thing you said, either, but that doesn't change that you deserve a huge thank you.

Don't mention it; it goes without saying. We may clash a lot on the forum, but nobody has the right to insult you (or anybody else) for being who you are. I always look at it like this: what if somebody said I had a 'choice' whether to be straight or not, or that I could 'cure' myself from being straight. I would want someone to tell that person he was mildy insane.

Yeah, I would like to see gay couples in Disney-films. Disney-films, as all films and all entertainment, should reflect reality. It's only to bad it will take many years still before Disney does such a thing, since many people are intolerant haters and religious and/or homophobic groups would call for boycotts and condemn such Disney-movies.

You're welcome Disney Duster, I am gay myself and I always get angry when someone tells me that I can be cured, as if beeing gay was a condition. There is nothing wrong in being gay and the fact that I and you or anyone else is gay don't harm anyone. When people say that they don't "approve" of gays, but at the same time says that they don't have nothing against me, I always get's baffled: How can they not approve of who I am without thinking they are insulting me? Both you and I know that our sexual orientation is as unchangable as that of heterosexuals or as the color of our skin.

I'm an ateist, and it's no secret how I feel about religion, although I do not make it a habit constantly flogging my views on the subject to my friends. I usually am very polite in that matter. I am sorry for offending any religious feelings, but what everybody need to understand is that people can choose to be religious or not, just as they choose what political ideology they support. In a free world we should be able to discuss and critize politics and religion without fearing that people are taking said critizisme personally. But when it comes to things as gender, color or sexual orientation, that is something we can not change and therefore it should not be discriminated against.

Ah, seeing two Disney-princes together in a Disney-film sometime in the future... A gay man can dream!;)

These things are off-topic. But I don't know where to put them because they address things already said in this thread...

1)"clueless dessert people" - but those people freed themselves from slavery attributing it to the very thing you're criticizing, they weren't clueless. If you meant the people who lived after them who were already freed were clueless, well the people who escaped slavery told them how it was they escaped, with God's help, that was what they passed down as knowledge. And the kings of that time, all the way to the kings and presidents and knowledgable people of this time, believe in it.

2) I'm not trying to perpetuate stereotypes with what I said about a certain park princess-loving guy, but I am noticing certain things, and differences between him and say, someone like Slave2moonlight.

3) Are you Goliath and Prince Edward really atheists? I thought Goliath was agnostic. Did you change because of me? I'm sure the two of you are smart enough to well know the difference between atheist and agnostic?

Disney Duster wrote:Linden, when someone brings up important things related to a topic, it is perfectly fine to discuss it, and some issues we feel are too important not to address. Maybe you didn't read the other things I said, but if I must say them here I will. From the time I was little, I felt a certain wya about boys that I couldn't explain, only now that I'm older do I know it was because I was born gay. When I told my cosuin and aunt, who helped raise me when my mother couldn't, they laughingly said "they knew since I was 5". And my aunt is a rather devout Christian.

Do you have a favorite color? You just like that color, right? And you can't change it? Do you like the opposite sex in a romantic way? If you do, you can't change it, right? That's the same it is for me. I didn't choose that my favorite colors are pink and purple or that I get certain romantic and sexual feelings for boys that I've never gotten from girls. I didn't choose it. My cousin, who grew up with me, knows I didn't choose it. And you thinking I did is and that I'm bad because of who I am is very hurtful.

When you try to become gay, and you actually feel you successfully have become gay just to try that out, then we'll talk.

The people that say they have given it up are probably just trying as hard as they can to not be gay when they still are. They probably aren't very happy inside though they probably are trying to seem so on the outside.

But you're not gay. You don't really know how it is. But here's someone who is telling you how it is, honestly. Not pretending, like those people who say they were gay but changed. There's a reason they would want to pretend, for the same reasons Jack Skelington went to therapy, which didn't work on him, but he had to keep pretending. But there's no reason I would want to pretend since I'd love to be able to not worry about who I am. But I am who I am, gay, and I can't change it, sad as that is. But it doesn't have to be sad, because people like you and everyone else in here opposed to it can stop telling us we're wrong for it, but if I can't have that, at least I still have the feeling of God's love for me as I am, gay.

Thanks for that post. I still stick to my opinions, but you've earned my respect, Disney Duster. Thanks for not trying to blast me away but just say what you mean calmly. That's my favourite kind of discussion.

And, you're right, I know I don't know exactly what it feels like to be gay and interact with others. I did have a small peek once, though. I think everyone on here automatically assumed I'm heterosexual, but I'm not. I'm not homosexual or bisexual either. I'm asexual, a sexual orientation that is almost never recognised. When I was really little I always thought I'd get married, but when I got to be about ten, I realised I didn't want to get married. I said I didn't want to marry (or date or anything) while I was growing up, but my parents always said "Just wait, you'll meet some tall, strong guy..." When I still felt the same at 17, they started to get worried and one day had a talk with me. They asked me if I was lesbian, and I'll never forget their faces. They were trying to look tolerant but looked scared and a little repulsed. I could tell they'd been talking about it behind my back for a while. For about a year, they continued to think that way, I think. They don't think I'm lesbian anymore, but I think as I get older, a lot of people will think so. I'm sort of a tomboy and not too into my looks or girlish things. I prefer to have my hair short (although it's not at the moment) and don't wear makeup if I can help it. So, yeah, I know it's nothing compared to actually being gay, but I know I would never want to have people looking at me that way my whole life, much less saying derogatory comments to me. And I don't treat gays that way. I hold my beliefs, but I treat gays no different than anyone else, because really, they are no different than anyone else. One of my co-workers is transgender, but she's nice to be around and I enjoy talking to her.

Super Aurora wrote:

Linden wrote: There are instances of homosexuals giving up on homosexuality,

Which is most likely so they don't get the shit beating out of them or ridiculed. Go as Jack Skeleton, a member on this forum.

I actually know very little about biology, but I wanted to post something as a comment on Linden's post about Asexuality. I don't believe Asexuality is a choice either. I heard that people are born with varying levels of testosterone and estrogen. Some people who just aren't as interested in sex as others I've been told have these lower counts of or less dominant genes of testosterone and estrogen or X and Y chromosomes.

Therefore, it's easy to believe that some people could very well "switch" sexualities (especially if it turns out they have a predilection for bisexuality - probably just as scary a concept for the conservative-religious folks as homosexuality) or, just "stop" being gay (as in- actively seeking the romantic attention and company of their own gender). The reason I have to believe this is possible: transsexualism.