DVDizzy Forum

Tangled wrote:

jazzflower92 wrote: Except for the physical appearance and age, Pacha really isn't that different personality wise in the final film.

Yeah, but I feel like current!Pacha works so well is because he's the supportive figure in the story, not the focus. After all, his arc is essentially learning how to deal someone like Kuzco, and in-turn Kuzco is inspired to be a better person because of Pacha. It's a very traditional buddy-comedy setup, but they did it well. Both Pacha and Kuzco do actually develop rather smoothly through the movie.

Basically, though, his relationship with Kuzco in The Emperor's New Groove seems like it makes a way better romance than original!Patcha and Nina in KotS.

Agreed, the reason why it's better for Kuzco to be the main character is because he is the one who is in need of development the most. Patcha is really a static character, who stays the same all throughout the original film. A static main character can be good if they are counteracted with a co-main character who changes over time. Take for instance Belle and the Beast, Belle starts out as the main focus but as time goes on Beast grows to take the spotlight as he grows as a character.

Also it makes Kuzco dialogue in the final film about the story being about him and not Patcha very funny, due to the fact in the original draft it was the other way around.

I'm kinda glad TENG exists as it is, for I find it refreshing. KOTS, aside from the Sting music, seems rather generic and it's obvious the story was all over the place...

I dunno i imagine if it had come out the reception would've been very lukewarm, people would've attacked it similar to Pocahontas/Brother Bear: boring, pretentious, cliched...I mean I think it'd would've fallen under the curse of the late 90s and early 2000s films rather than being a new Lion King.

on the other hand, i would've loved to see a peruvian Disney princess, but if she was gonna be so bland and generic...Well at least it's better than a token stereotype for a princess. yes, i can have my cake and eat it too.

Thank you for the link! It was so intriguing to read a abandoned Disney movie like that. I thought it was spectacular, but yeah it was going through mood/emotional issues like Hunchback: Happy, then scary, happy, then scary...

There are also more behind the scenes looks/storyboards here. And what is weird is that the pitch never mentioned Manco/Kuzco's love interest, Mata.

http://www.dorkly.com/post/79402/empero ... -different
http://antonionavarroportfolio.blogspot ... f-sun.html
http://www.platypuscomix.net/educationa ... atbox.html

Also, a animation test for Nina:

https://vimeo.com/112785123

I might be the only one then who actually wishes we got Kingdom of the Sun instead. I just don't see the problems everyone has listed, at least not from reading the outline of the film. I don't think it would have been the next Lion King either, but I think it would have kept up the momentum from Mulan and Tarzan if it had been a more epic style musical. Although from the outline, it seems like there were only supposed to be 3 original songs and then two reprises, so I wouldn't even call it a full musical.

Not liking the designs of neither Mata nor Nina. But it's incredibly that the former was hidden from the public until now. Thought that Manco was supposed to be single.

Perhaps Kingdom Of The Sun could've worked if they could've tighten some story elements together. But apparently Disney never thought it could work, anyway. And since Nik Ranieri shared these storyboards, perhaps he had faith in KOTS?

Btw, it's surprising that Disney didn't cast any Latin American actors for the parts. And the movie got away with no criticism against the Inca's. Had it been released today, I bet the criticism would've been worse.

DisneyFan09 wrote:Btw, it's surprising that Disney didn't cast any Latin American actors for the parts. And the movie got away with no criticism against the Inca's. Had it been released today, I bet the criticism would've been worse.

You're talking about KOTS or TENG there?

Well tbh there aren't any Peruvian actors in the newer film either (and saying peruvian because for authenticity and because peruvian audiences wouldn't care to see a movie about their culture portrayed by mexicans or argentinians, not the same thing, it's like doing Mulan with Japanese voice actors. Big problem of most outside LA media is that they mix all latino cultures into one homogenous melting pot or they think they're just Mexico x20 (hi, Elena)).

Well, about the Incas, at least TENG just sorta treats it normal. They just chose the setting but didn't really add so much "cultural" stuff into it (like say, Mulan with filial piety or Aladdin with magic carpets), and i guess people just didn't take it so seriously since the film doesn't take itself seriously. I figure if the movie had been done in another setting it would've been the same thing. And I think this works sorta good when you make films with POC leads, the moment you try to add "cultural" elements you run the thin line of turning everything into a boring, preachy stereotype (Pocahontas and the Magical Native stereotype the film carries throughout). And that's where the problem begins. Instead, treating the film and characters normal as other white characters reduces stereotypes.

And either way I suppose nobody comments on it similar to how nobody commented on Brother Bear casting a white man to play a native. I guess they didn't notice or just didn't care for the movie.

Now onto KOTS.
This one has MUCH more cultural elements: mythology, religion, Huaca (which is really weird- huacas are known as ancient incan mountains where they laid the dead to rest (they're littered everywhere throughout Peru, you can even find some in the middle of the capital city, Lima). why would you name the cute disney sidekick after a religious and grim aspect...)...

There were sacrifices in Incan civilization, but they much more brutal (the victims were children or weak people). i doubt Disney would ever show that, though, so I can see why they changed it to llamas.

And the mythology/religion is sorta right- the incas believed the Inca was the sucesor of the Sun/the Sun in flesh and blood, so he was treated quite almighty. About the Supai stuff is sorta accurate but I wouldn't be surprised if it's simplified ala Hades from Hercules.

Overall I'm not bothered by the cultural aspects here (except Huaca, and that mostly ties with how uneven the tone of the film seems at this stage- it wants to be ultra dark and scary and serious but the next moment we have to have funny llamas), but i guess there's somebody out there who wouldn't like it. Though I wouldn't be surprised if not many would comment about it. I doubt many people know or care about Incan history.

jazzflower92 wrote: I know a lot of people say they wished the early film could have been made, but due to the obvious problems I see in this version I have a feeling it would have been pretty forgettable and be kind of like all the other films previously seen in the 90's.

In what way? Most of what I read didn't sound too similar to the '90s outside of the villain being a powerful, authority figure (although she'd have stood out by being the only villainess in that decade considering Ursula is '80s).

I wouldn't have minded this over the finished product. The only loss between the two would've been Kronk. Kuzko/Pacha weren't exciting in the finished product, and barely sound better in the KotS draft. It doesn't matter which is or would've been the main character and which isn't because the plot there is tired. The only thing I really would've liked to have seen is the ending with Supai. I love the Titans in Hercules because of how primordial they are; I wonder what Supai would've looked/sounded like.

Divinity, here are a few pictures for you to get an idea on how Supai is illustrated.





More of a night god he's more a god of death and destruction and terror, the opposite to Inti, who is warm and brings life. When Christianity was put upon the Natives they linked Supai to the Christian Satan.

These sketches look good, but I imagine Disney's version would be tamed down in fear of parents complaining about the movie being too scary for kids.

thedisneyspirit wrote:You're talking about KOTS or TENG there?

Both.

Well tbh there aren't any Peruvian actors in the newer film either (and saying peruvian because for authenticity and because peruvian audiences wouldn't care to see a movie about their culture portrayed by mexicans or argentinians, not the same thing, it's like doing Mulan with Japanese voice actors.

Mulan had a couple of Japanese actors as well, and even Korean! Not all of them were Chinese. And remember The Road To El Dorado having Latin Americans in two of the Native parts (though El Dorado was obviously more epic than TENG, it was mostly a comedy as well)

Big problem of most outside LA media is that they mix all latino cultures into one homogenous melting pot or they think they're just Mexico x20 (hi, Elena)).

Unfortunately that's true. I'm part Latino myself (from Chile).

And either way I suppose nobody comments on it similar to how nobody commented on Brother Bear casting a white man to play a native. I guess they didn't notice or just didn't care for the movie.

True. According to the Brother Bear: A Transformation Tale Book, the creators chose ancient Inuits so they wouldn't offend anyone. Well, Inuits still exists today.

Now onto KOTS.
This one has MUCH more cultural elements: mythology, religion, Huaca (which is really weird- huacas are known as ancient incan mountains where they laid the dead to rest (they're littered everywhere throughout Peru, you can even find some in the middle of the capital city, Lima). why would you name the cute disney sidekick after a religious and grim aspect...)...

There were sacrifices in Incan civilization, but they much more brutal (the victims were children or weak people). i doubt Disney would ever show that, though, so I can see why they changed it to llamas.

And the mythology/religion is sorta right- the incas believed the Inca was the sucesor of the Sun/the Sun in flesh and blood, so he was treated quite almighty. About the Supai stuff is sorta accurate but I wouldn't be surprised if it's simplified ala Hades from Hercules.

Overall I'm not bothered by the cultural aspects here (except Huaca, and that mostly ties with how uneven the tone of the film seems at this stage- it wants to be ultra dark and scary and serious but the next moment we have to have funny llamas), but i guess there's somebody out there who wouldn't like it. Though I wouldn't be surprised if not many would comment about it. I doubt many people know or care about Incan history.

The cultural aspect was the main reason to look forward to KOTS, due to me having interest in Incan culture. But due to it being conceived as an serious epic, the tone shifts could've been a problem (which is evident in the comedic songs).

DisneyFan09 wrote: True. According to the Brother Bear: A Transformation Tale Book, the creators chose ancient Inuits so they wouldn't offend anyone. Well, Inuits still exists today.

Here's Disney's problem, everyone wants their culture faithfully represented and yet if you do actually do that, some will call you out as being offensive. It's a "do you are darned, don't you are darned" issue. Then there is this chip on many people's shoulder that only people from their culture can make their movie, and so on and so forth.

Glad I don't make animated movies at Disney. Who needs the ulcer?

http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Mick,_Bowie_and_Lemmy

I surprised no one mentioned Mick, Bowie, and Lemmy because they were Yzma's sidekicks in the Kingdom Of the Sun. It's obvious why they were removed from the movie due to the fact that Yzma's being a sorceress was cut and that means they would have no purpose to be there. It makes sense how Kronk was made to fill the role they were going to play. And Hucua the other sidekick character probably wouldn't have fit well, since the more mythological theme was removed from the movie. And I have to say that Kronk fits the sidekick role better than Huca and the mummies combined.

http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Hucua

Huaca seems like a discount Cogsworth, so I'm glad he was replaced by Kronk. Something tells me he would've come out something like Lawrence, very annoying (and again, it turns me off that they named him after what's essentially a tomb...).

milojthatch wrote:
Here's Disney's problem, everyone wants their culture faithfully represented and yet if you do actually do that, some will call you out as being offensive. It's a "do you are darned, don't you are darned" issue.

I don't see what's so wrong with people wanting to see themselves represented or acknowledged... Also, who would be complaining if their culture is accurately represented? Aside from some wackos who aren't a part of the culture and know zero about it that would cause a ruckus cause they like to be nosy and start fights, but I don't think their opinions should matter on the subject.

milojthatch wrote:Then there is this chip on many people's shoulder that only people from their culture can make their movie, and so on and so forth.

Well, don't Americans get into angry rants when they're represented as fat hicks by Europeans and other countries? People always want autenthicity, and while not everyone agrees, people feel more secure that their story will be accurately represented who shares their same background.

The issue of making films of your culture really depends on the person. Some people have no interest in writing or fiction or the arts (so you shouldn't force them to write if they have no incentive to), whereas others love it, and while many would love to write about their country, culture and experience, many don't want to be pigeonholed into only writing about that. It's happened many times that certain non-white/non-american authors have been pressured to only talk/write about latino/african/asian issues and nothing else. Which is unfair for anyone in these circles who wishes to expand their world. Why am I not allowed to write my own little semi Tolkien-esque fantasy? Last I knew, George RR Martin is not English, but nobody's stopping him from writing his War of the Roses dragon fanfiction.

As long as the person has researched properly, and has a respectful idea, I'm ok for it, tbh. (and hey, if more people are interested in my culture/country, enough to learn the history and appreciate the food and speak the language, then awesome! I'm all for that).

thedisneyspirit wrote:Divinity, here are a few pictures for you to get an idea on how Supai is illustrated.

Although it's not the best quality picture, here's what Supai could have looked like:

http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Supai

...and here are other pages I found for KotS on the Disney Wiki:
http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Mata_(deleted_character)
http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Nina_(deleted_character)

Thanks, cauldron.

Supai is exactly how I imagined Disney to design him- this kind of ambiguous shadow monster.

And the girls...The first girl's design for some reason reminds me a lot of the Prince of Egypt...

I've been wondering about something regarding the prologue to Kingdom of The Sun; Due to it initiating with the origin of the Incan world (with mythological characters as Inti and Viracocha), I've wondered if the prologue would've been made in the same vein stylistically as the prologues of Hercules, Mulan (though that prologue didn't include a narration), Moana or The Road To El Dorado.

Sorry for bumping this tread, but after having re-read the script, I think I know what story points could've been improved. Changing the ending to have either make Pacha the Emperor or having at least Pacha staying at the Sacred City under Manco's guidance, which would've been much more satisfying instead of just having Pacha leaving. Also I've would've probably given Manco some backstory explaining his arrogance and expanded some of his screentime.
Otherwise, I've would've gotten rid of the llama chases, who seems superfluous and just seem to not fit with the tone of the story.

May I ask you where did you find the script?

It's already here, but here it goes; https://www.facebook.com/pg/NikRanieriA ... 4455620286

Does anyone know if the actual script is floating around online somewhere

DisneyFan09 wrote:Sorry for bumping this tread, but after having re-read the script, I think I know what story points could've been improved. Changing the ending to have either make Pacha the Emperor or having at least Pacha staying at the Sacred City under Manco's guidance, which would've been much more satisfying instead of just having Pacha leaving. Also I've would've probably given Manco some backstory explaining his arrogance and expanded some of his screentime.
Otherwise, I've would've gotten rid of the llama chases, who seems superfluous and just seem to not fit with the tone of the story.

The thing to remember about Manco is that as an Incan emperor he would be worshipped as a god and considered the son of Inti, the sun god. So it wouldn't be very surprising that he would be so arrogant. The Emperor's New Groove at least did try to explain that Yzma raising him probably had a lot to do with his character (or lack of it), but that doesn't appear to be the case in Kingdom of the Sun.

I'm torn on Pacha's decision at the end though. On one hand it reflects the simplicity of his soul and reminds me of how even Mulan turns down the emperor's offer to return home because that's where she belongs. However at the same time, Pacha has had such a positive effect on Manco's life and they seem to have bonded that it feels odd for him to suddenly just leave.