DVDizzy Forum

Poppins#1 wrote:It is unbelievable that Disney is releasing a pan-and-scan job of a CinemaScope movie in 2011. Total Fail.

It's not really unbelievable at all they have been notorious through the years especially when it came to releasing the old classic live action films not to release them in the original aspect ratio. They arn't like Warners who always seem to release films in their OAR. With Disney besides recent film releases they pretty much release whatever print they first come upon, clean it up a bit and boom.

Disney Guru wrote: It's not really unbelievable at all they have been notorious through the years especially when it came to releasing the old classic live action films not to release them in the original aspect ratio. They arn't like Warners who always seem to release films in their OAR. With Disney besides recent film releases they pretty much release whatever print they first come upon, clean it up a bit and boom.

Is there somewhere we can complain where the Disney folks will actually listen? I know a few years back they released a colorized full-frame version of "The Absent-Minded Professor" and the outcry was so great that they withdrew it and replaced it with the black & white widescreen DVD. If only enough people would complain about this! However the difference here is that it's movie club exclusive and no one really cares.

Also, The Absent-Minded Professor was re-released in an improper widescreen ratio. The Black and White DVD is matted to 1.66:1, but I think they matted the cropped version, because we're still missing some of the image on the sides, and the original film was instructed to be matted to 1.75:1.

So even though they DID go back and release the film in the original Black and White, they continued to fowl up the release with an improper aspect ratio.....

Prepare yourself for a shock........


I got The Littlest Outlaw and Westward Ho the Wagons in the mail today. I put in Littlest Outlaw first, and the disc itself is pretty sharp. It is 1.33:1, but I assume it is an open matte transfer of a film that was probably optionally matted up to 1.75:1 or less. Therefore I would definitely suggest a confident purchase with this disc.

I was so excited, I couldn't wait to take a look at Westward Ho the Wagons. I put the disc in and the titles start.....the REAL titles from the original release and they look absolutely pristine! And they are in full cinemascope widescreen!!! I about jumped up and hugged the TV!! Finally I can watch the full cinemascope frame of this classic Disney gem. And then......................................right at the end of the credits, there is a dedication and the camera zooms into a flickering blurred and misframed print of the feature itself. Seriously! It looks like Disney actually did remaster this film in widescreen as it looks sparkling.....I can't understand why in the world they would butcher the film by zooming in (this also causes the rest of the film itself to be noticably blurry).

We all need to call Disney Disney Movie Club Exclusives steering committee and tell them that we are disappointed with this release and DEMAND they release the film in it's full Cinemascope glory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's crazy about Westward Ho The Wagons' print. It reminds me of Follow Me Boys. The dvd print is old and worn, but the clips they show during the bonus features and interviews are beautifully crisp and clean. It makes no sense that those restored prints exist, yet we get the inferior ones on the main dvd. It's unacceptable.

Okay, so the DMC Exclusive release of Westward Ho! The Wagons has an incorrect aspect ratio. Is it also the edited version that was shown on the anthology tv show which is missing some scenes and the song "Wringle Wrangle" as well?

from what i have been told Darby...yes..it is the same edited version that was released on vhs a few years ago and also, is streaming on Amazon.com and Disney's movie site. I can honestly say I am none too pleased with the recent crop of "exclusives"....I keep hearing someone people say that the films look more crisp or clean, but, on the dvd's I have purchases....I just dont see it. Monkey's Uncle, So Dear to My Heart, look to have been cleaned up some...but, I'm not too sure about the others.

I finally got a chance to watch my new copy of Westward Ho! The Wagons last night. The case indicated the film was approximately 90 minutes. This concurs with The Disney Flims. The song Wringle, Wrangle was certainly included. If anyone wants me to, I can double check on the DVD player that the film was really 90 minutes long. But I definitely heard Fess Parker sing Wringle, Wrangle. As for other edits, I am not an expert on this film. As a matter of fact, this is the first time I have seen it. I did participate in complaining to the Disney movie club about the aspect ratio.

The Littlest Outlaw is a very nice film so far (I haven't quite finished it yet). It probably is mostly open matte, but I couldn't help but noticed the credits favored the right side of the screen. So I think the film is basically open matte with a little bit of cropping on the sides: especially the right side.

MichaeLeah wrote:I did participate in complaining to the Disney movie club about the aspect ratio.

I'd like to contact them about this also. I know I can call, but I feel the most effective way to contact a company is with a printed letter. However, I can't find a postal address for Disney Movie Club's Customer Service. I tried searching their site, and maybe I'm missing it. Can anyone help?

MichaeLeah wrote:I finally got a chance to watch my new copy of Westward Ho! The Wagons last night. The case indicated the film was approximately 90 minutes. This concurs with The Disney Flims. The song Wringle, Wrangle was certainly included. If anyone wants me to, I can double check on the DVD player that the film was really 90 minutes long. But I definitely heard Fess Parker sing Wringle, Wrangle. As for other edits, I am not an expert on this film. As a matter of fact, this is the first time I have seen it. I did participate in complaining to the Disney movie club about the aspect ratio.

The Littlest Outlaw is a very nice film so far (I haven't quite finished it yet). It probably is mostly open matte, but I couldn't help but noticed the credits favored the right side of the screen. So I think the film is basically open matte with a little bit of cropping on the sides: especially the right side.

Thank you for the confirmation! I will definitely be ordering both of these films.

Darby

MichaeLeah wrote:I finally got a chance to watch my new copy of Westward Ho! The Wagons last night. The case indicated the film was approximately 90 minutes. This concurs with The Disney Flims. The song Wringle, Wrangle was certainly included. If anyone wants me to, I can double check on the DVD player that the film was really 90 minutes long.

Hi MichaeLeah,

Can you check what the DVD player reads for the running time of the film? I've heard the 90-minute running time from various sources for the edited TV version, but that number's always conflicted with what BBFC has for a running time. They have a classification for the film from 1957, where it passed with no cuts at all and runs 1 hour, 26 minutes, and 9 seconds. PAL speed-up shouldn't be an issue, as it was passed as film (24fps) and not video (25fps in PAL).

Strangely, when BBFC classififed the film again in 1987, for a video release, it had the longer running time of 1 hour, 30 minutes, and 26 seconds. Converting that number from PAL to NTSC (since they classified it in video form, whose running time comes from the 25fps speed) yields 1 hour, 34 minutes, 12 seconds.

Is the DMC DVD closer to the 1:26:09 running time or 1:34:12 running time? Or is it squarely in the middle? Amazon Instant Video's version is 91 minutes, which others have said is the edited TV version.

All these numbers are confusing me. I really wish Disney had someone at WDSHE who actually KNOWS what they're doing with these movies instead of issuing them as online movie club exclusives with crappy VHS or laserdisc transfers that are either open-matte, pan&scan, or edited. Then such issues like this would not be a problem.

albert

Escapay wrote:

MichaeLeah wrote:I finally got a chance to watch my new copy of Westward Ho! The Wagons last night. The case indicated the film was approximately 90 minutes. This concurs with The Disney Flims. The song Wringle, Wrangle was certainly included. If anyone wants me to, I can double check on the DVD player that the film was really 90 minutes long.

Hi MichaeLeah,

Can you check what the DVD player reads for the running time of the film? I've heard the 90-minute running time from various sources for the edited TV version, but that number's always conflicted with what BBFC has for a running time. They have a classification for the film from 1957, where it passed with no cuts at all and runs 1 hour, 26 minutes, and 9 seconds. PAL speed-up shouldn't be an issue, as it was passed as film (24fps) and not video (25fps in PAL).

Strangely, when BBFC classififed the film again in 1987, for a video release, it had the longer running time of 1 hour, 30 minutes, and 26 seconds. Converting that number from PAL to NTSC (since they classified it in video form, whose running time comes from the 25fps speed) yields 1 hour, 34 minutes, 12 seconds.

Is the DMC DVD closer to the 1:26:09 running time or 1:34:12 running time? Or is it squarely in the middle? Amazon Instant Video's version is 91 minutes, which others have said is the edited TV version.

All these numbers are confusing me. I really wish Disney had someone at WDSHE who actually KNOWS what they're doing with these movies instead of issuing them as online movie club exclusives with crappy VHS or laserdisc transfers that are either open-matte, pan&scan, or edited. Then such issues like this would not be a problem.

albert

Yes this film is a real mish mash on its different releases.
My PAL VHS is running approx. 1 hour 30 min & 26 sec.
The DVD recently released is running 1 hour 26 min & 17 sec.

But the difference in length is not so easy as that the DVD just misses a scene on 4 minutes - oh, no, if it only was!

The DVD completely omits a whole scene right in the beginning of the film where the wagon camp is attacked by Indians and got their horses stolen. The character of Dan (the young Stollery) is involved in pursuing and reclaiming his horse along with Fess Parker. This scene is approx. 11 minutes long and is missing on the DVD.

Instead the DVD has a scene that the old VHS doesn´t have. It´s the 2.10 minutes long conversation/discussion between Parker and York, right before the dance-scene in the camp. The old VHS omits that and cut right in to the dancing.

Next difference is 37 minutes and 55 sec. into the film on DVD. There you have the much talked about scene where Parker sings “Wringle Wrangle”. Approx 2 minutes long and right before the scene where the wagons arrive to the fort. This scene is missing on the old VHS.

I can´t imagine why all this difference occur. Was it never shown in its complete length in theaters? Was the long version just produced to be shown on TV (like they do nowadays with many films that got a longer running time on TV or DVD). David Smith lists the film as running 86 minutes in his Disney Encyclopedia. Leonard Maltin list its time as 90 minutes. Oh, boy!

So to own the whole film, you need to hold on to your old VHS tape; at least until this mess is cleared up by Disney and they release a COMPLETE version in CINEMASCOPE on DVD.
(This stupid pan and scan/zooming in makes the faces distorted in many scenes, I guess that is what happens when you zoom in the picture on a Cinemascope frame that normally stretches wide.)

Thanks for all that info, Chernabog!

So from what it looks like, these are the different running times culled from BBFC, the PAL VHS, and the NTSC DVD:

BBFC Film 24fps
--86 minutes (1:26:09)

PAL Video
--90 minutes (1:30:26)

DVD Video
--86 minutes (1:26:17)

And then from what you've given:

Video PAL - 1:30:26
--Minus 2:10 minutes
--Minus 2:00 minutes

DVD NTSC - 1:26:17
--Minus 11 minutes
--Plus 2:10 minutes
--Plus 2:00 minutes

So, it looks like the DVD includes 4 minutes not on the PAL Video, but loses 11 minutes from the PAL Video.

Converting the 1:30:26 PAL VHS to NTSC is the 1:34:12 figure I got earlier. If we add the 4:10 minutes that's on the DVD, but not on the VHS, then the running time for the complete film (or the version with the most footage) would be 1:38:22. 98 whole minutes! A whole new number to include among the running times of 86 and 90. Who the hell is letting these glaring errors seemingly pass by at WDSHE?!?

Chernabog wrote:I can´t imagine why all this difference occur. Was it never shown in its complete length in theaters? Was the long version just produced to be shown on TV (like they do nowadays with many films that got a longer running time on TV or DVD).

Could the scenes on the VHS (but not on the DVD) be from "Along the Oregon Trail"? It was the "Disneyland" episode that featured the cast in character, mixed with footage from the theatrical film. If so, then that footage wouldn't have appeared in the theatrical cut of Westward Ho the Wagons!. AllMovieGuide's summary of the episode:

• This Disneyland episode served to promote the upcoming theatrical feature Westward Ho the Wagons, with that film's star, Fess Parker, acting as narrator. After a brief segment in which host Walt Disney relates the history of the Oregon Trail (the pioneer route from Kansas City to the Pacific Coast), the episode segues into a dramatized sequence, combining footage from the feature film as well as some freshly-shot vignettes. Several of the actors appearing in Westward Ho the Wagons repeat their roles in this portion of the program, in which the preparations made by settlers to undertake the 2000-mile westard trek along the Oregon Trail are meticulously detailed. Also heard are two songs from the film, the title number and "Pioneer's Prayer" (the film's popular ditty "Wringle Wrangle" was reserved for a special presentation of Disney's The Mickey Mouse Club. Ironically, while one of the stars of the Westward Ho the Wagons, George Reeves of Superman fame, does not appear in "The Oregon Trail", Phyllis Coates, who'd previously played Lois Lane to Reeves' Clark Kent, shows up in an important supporting role.

Could it be possible that the DVD is intact as the true theatrical edition, as it would not include the material from "Along the Oregon Trail"? It would correlate with the BBFC classification of 1:26:09, as the DVD is only a few seconds longer (maybe that's just the addition of the new Disney logo?)

Then, the VHS is a different version of the film based on its "Disneyland" airing in 1961, which possibly lost 4 minutes of theatrical scenes (maybe they cut "Wringle, Wrangle" for rights issues?), and then added 11 minutes of the in-character footage used in the "Along the Oregon Trail" episode? That would explain why the VHS has been running longer than the theatrical film:

86 minutes theatrical
minus
4 minutes theatrical
plus
11 minutes television
equals
94 minutes theatrical/television (90 minutes in PAL)

I hope Bill Cotter (bcotter on the forums) is reading this. He's posted on UD before and surely would know the answer, and it'd be great to hear his thoughts on this.

albert

Hmmmhm, I don´t think that those 11 minutes are from "The Oregon Trail". It doesn´t fit the descripton given: "the episode segues into a dramatized sequence, combining footage from the feature film as well as some freshly-shot vignettes. Several of the actors appearing in Westward Ho the Wagons repeat their roles in this portion of the program, in which the preparations made by settlers to undertake the 2000-mile westard trek along the Oregon Trail are meticulously detailed."

This 11 minutes segment is a real scene from the film I think, but maybe cut before the theatrical release. It has nothing to do with the preparations for the trail. Here the indians steal the horses and Stollery sneaks away after them, followed by Fess Parker. They managed to retrieve one horse.
I can imagine that this scene was cut before the release because there is no hint in the story of how the rest of the horses came back to the wagonpeople. Later in the film they release all their horse stock to treat the indians, which are attacking them, to follow the running horses instead of continuing the attack on the wagon trail. Or was it not those horses that were stolen before - the indians came back for more?

Westward Ho the Wagons is a very strange film - no real basic-driven story, only small segments of scenes tied together. So its difficult to tell... Well, I dont know.. I also hope Mr. Cotter reads this and can check what was really in that program "The Oregon Trail".

Thanks again for the info, Chernabog!

It seems strange that Disney would opt for the VHS to include non-theatrical (and likely non-"Along the Oregon Trail") material.

I'm going to e-mail Bill Cotter a link to this discussion and ask if he can chime in with what he knows.

albert

Well, this is certainly an interesting example of how Disney has lost control of some of its film versions.

I just finished watching the original Cinemascope theatrical release. It ran 86 minutes, which ties in with the British Film Board for the initial ratings, and for Disney's internal reference guide "The All Pictures Book."

I also checked out the 94 minute VHS tape. At times it was like watching two completely different movies.

I think I see what happened here but I need to check something else tomorrow. First I think I'll get some sleep if I can get the theme song out of my head...

Bill

bcotter wrote:I just finished watching the original Cinemascope theatrical release. It ran 86 minutes, which ties in with the British Film Board for the initial ratings, and for Disney's internal reference guide "The All Pictures Book."

Is/was the Cinemascope version available in any format? I wasn't aware that it existed.

I was lucky to get a VHS tape a collector made of his Cinemascope print. It's not a great transfer but it's the only one I've found so far.

Right from the start you can see a difference, as the titles on the print are formatted for the wide screen aspect. The version on the commercial VHS was reshot for the TV aspect ratio. That wasn't uncommon. Some studios would show the Cinemascope titles with black borders or fancy scroll work, then jump into the TV ratio for the film itself, but Disney usually shot different titles.

The theatrical version opens with the wagon train stopping for the day, then jumps into the dance sequence. The entire portion of the Indians stealing the horses is not there, as it is on the commercial tape. The theatrical version of the dance sequence is different though, as it has Fess Parker and Jeff York in a lengthy discussion about the dangers of the journey. That's all missing on the commercial tape.

I'm still pulling some reference files out so I'll be back with more later. One thing that struck me is that the commercial VHS version is not a panned-and-scanned version, where an operator moves the copied image across the wider format to properly center the action. Instead it looks like they just locked the camera in place on the center segment, and in doing so, actually zoomed in a bit too far. There are lots of shots with the tops of heads cut off that should have had sky above them as in the Cinemascope shots. Not an uncommon practice but shoddy.

Two quick additions.

1) As an example of how the titles were reshot, on the Cinemascope print the film name shows as:

"Westward Ho the Wagons!"

while on the commercial VHS it's

"Westward Ho
the Wagons!"

Note that neither of them have a comma in them, or an exclamation mark (many Disney records show the title as ""Westward Ho, the Wagons". "Westward Ho! The Wagons" or "Westward Ho! the Wagons"). The DVD box in this thread and the commercial VHS slipcase both use the comma version of the title, but that's not what's on the prints themselves. Such are the mysteries of Disney.


2) The version on Amazon is 90 minutes long and seems to be the same version as used on the commercial VHS tape. I'm not sure where the difference in the running time comes from (90 minutes vs 94). I don't have the time right now to do a side-by-side comparison to see if one was sped up or if there were any cuts, but I'd love to hear the results from anyone who does one.

Bill

While I'm watching "Along the Oregon Trail" I pulled out the records for the two part TV airings. Part 1 used 45:59 of footage from the film, and part 2 used 46:47. That makes a total of 92:46. Since the original film was only 86 minutes, and since the TV versions didn't use the original theatrical credits, that meant they needed about 8-9 minutes of additional footage to get the time they needed.

Somehow I have managed to misplace my tape of the TV edition but will keep looking for it. I do have the detailed Disney records on it though. Part 1 was sponsored by Pepto Bosom, Canada Dry, Louden cough drops and Brillo in vase anyone was wondering!

Part 1 of the TV version includes the sequence with the stolen horses. My guess is that Disney had shot all of this stuff at the time of the original filming, then had cut the stolen horse sequence before the film was first released theatrically. This was likely to get the film to what they felt was the optimum running time. There apparently was also some concern about showing the murdered man discovered at the start of the horse heft sequence. So, for the theatrical release, they cut that whole segment.

Now comes the TV version and a need for footage. Simple, just put back the horse theft bit, right? Wrong. With that added back in the shows would have been too long. So, with that footage in, something else had to go, so out came the editors scissors and out went the sequence where the two men talk about the dangers of the trail.

Now how some of this got redone for the DVD version is yet another story. I'm still trying to sort that mess out. I'm also trying to sort out where "Wringle Wrangle" was used.

I think it's safe to say that none of the footage shot for "Along the Oregon Trail" ended up in the VHS or amazon version. I really doubt it made it into the DVD version as well. However, I think that show contains footage from the theatrical filming that never made it into any of the other versions. More on that when I finish watching it and pull the other versions for another comparison.

I think it's time for people to let Disney know they really blew it this time. They could do a DVD with the original Cinemascope version, then as a bonus add the "Alternate version", and "Along the Oregon Trail".

Once this is sorted out I'm going to mention this to Leonard Maltin. Maybe he can get their attention. However, my experience with Disney is that with this DVD just out they're highly unlikely to do a new version anytime soon.