DVDizzy Forum

milojthatch wrote:

Goliath wrote:...Don Bluth was never a serious contender...

I don't know that I can agree with that. Keep in mind that Don's films of the 80's were doing REALLY well, much better then Disney's. Even the documentary "Waking Sleeping Beauty" points this out. Keep in mind that "The Land Before Time" was released the same day as "Oliver and Co." and beat it, and not barley either.

Well, "Oliver"'s domestic gross ultimately beat "The Land Before Time" in 1988 ($53 mil. vs. $48 mil.):
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id ... ompany.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id ... retime.htm

However, "The Care Bears Movie" and "An American Tail" did beat "The Black Cauldron" and "The Great Mouse Detective" respectively. So yeah, it was depressing for Disney back then, especially when there weren't that many animated films on the market, unlike now.

Anyways, "Tangled" is a wonderful movie, the best thing to come out from WDAS in a long time, and I do hope it marks the beginning of a new Golden Age for WDAS.

milojthatch wrote:I don't know that I can agree with that. Keep in mind that Don's films of the 80's were doing REALLY well, much better then Disney's.

Um, no, not really. In the 80s, Don Bluth released:

The Secret of NIMH which failed miserably.
An American Tail which earned a respectable $47 million.
The Land Before Time which did less than Oliver.
All Dogs Go To Heaven that did a poor $27 million and was universally panned by critics.

Disney released one flop (The Black Cauldron), three decent successes (The Fox and the Hound, The Great Mouse Detective and Oliver) and one box-office smash (The Little Mermaid).

rodis wrote:The Secret of NIMH which failed miserably.

They only spent $7 million making that movie. How was it a failure when it grossed $14 million domestically?

rodis wrote:An American Tail which earned a respectable $47 million.

It was record-breaking for an animated movie, Disney or otherwise. "respectable" is an understatement, and both Waking Sleeping Beauty and Eisner's Work in Progress acknowledge this*. It was a major wake-up call for Disney.

rodis wrote:The Land Before Time which did less than Oliver.

By only $5 million, and LBT had the better opening day weekend.

It doesn't matter what any one indlidvidual thinks of Bluth's work today or how "poor" the numbers seem now the fact was at the time it was really scary for someone else to have found that kind of success in animation outside of Disney (especially since he was once with the company).

*And I have to believe them more than you when it comes to knowing how the comeption was judged by the company at the time.

rodis wrote:Um, no, not really. In the 80s, Don Bluth released:

The Secret of NIMH which failed miserably.
An American Tail which earned a respectable $47 million.
The Land Before Time which did less than Oliver.
All Dogs Go To Heaven that did a poor $27 million and was universally panned by critics.

Disney released one flop (The Black Cauldron), three decent successes (The Fox and the Hound, The Great Mouse Detective and Oliver) and one box-office smash (The Little Mermaid).

Keeping up with the overall picture . . .

*The Secret of NIMH was more of a minor success than a miserable failure, and was quite a blow to the morale of the Disney studio given the situation with Don Bluth.
*In addition to being record-breaking in the box office and on home video, An American Tail had a successful merchandising campaign. Disney didn't even release The Great Mouse Detective on home video at the time (although I realize that the Disney home video market was a different beast back then) and I don't recall any merchandising for the film.
*The Land Before Time was serious competition at least. While Oliver ultimately won out, the former had a much stronger opening and was subsequently released to home video (Oliver didn't reach home video until the following decade).
*While it wasn't a huge success at the box office, All Dogs Go to Heaven was profitable and was also one of the biggest-selling VHS's ever released at the time.

In short, Disney did indeed have some serious competition going on in the 80's as the public awareness increased for non-Disney animated films. And hell, the average person thinks films like All Dogs Go to Heaven are Disney regardless (so much for the Disney essence)! While it definitely wasn't as much competition as they have now, they'd certainly lost ground as the supreme leader of animated films until the release of titles like Who Framed Roger Rabbit and The Little Mermaid.

enigmawing wrote: Dogs Go to Heaven are Disney regardless (so much for the Disney essence)! While it definitely wasn't as much competition as they have now, they'd certainly lost ground as the supreme leader of animated films until the release of titles like Who Framed Roger Rabbit and The Little Mermaid.

I'll post interviews from the NY Times with Bluth where he names The Secret of NIMH and All Dogs Go To Heaven heavy failures himself. I was making this up, hon

I couldn't care less who reigned the genre in the 80's, 90's or 30's. w/e.

I was only making it a point since some people suggested that Disney had no serious competition in the 80's when in fact they did. And I'd say that the competition was good for them.

And since it seems that both The Secret of NIMH and All Dogs Go to Heaven made a profit, I can only imagine they were perceived as heavy failures by Bluth since they didn't live up to the success of films like An American Tail and The Land Before Time. I have the impression he wanted to be the next Walt Disney and blow his former employers out of the water.

* * *

Not to be completely random, but does anyone remember these little guys?

milojthatch wrote: Disney did not come back until AFTER "The Little Mermaid." Had that film not been made, history very likely would have gone differently...

So a company can only have a "comeback" if they do better than everyone else? If that's the case, Disney'll probably never have a comeback, considering all the competition they have these days. Also, the income fell after Pocahontas' release, but they didn't have any competition then. Are we to assume that they didn't "lose it" until after some other company started making films to beat them again?

To me, they'll make a "comeback" when they are well-liked and trusted by audiences again, and not because they made such-and-such higher than the other movie that's out in the market at the same time.

enigmawing wrote: *In addition to being record-breaking in the box office and on home video, An American Tail had a successful merchandising campaign. Disney didn't even release The Great Mouse Detective on home video at the time (although I realize that the Disney home video market was a different beast back then) and I don't recall any merchandising for the film.
*The Land Before Time was serious competition at least. While Oliver ultimately won out, the former had a much stronger opening and was subsequently released to home video (Oliver didn't reach home video until the following decade).

Disney was still struggling with the concept of putting their most successful movies out on the video market at the time. They knew early on that a video release would end their long-running practice of re-releasing the films in theatres every 7-10 years.

While the threat of Don Bluth helped wake Disney up into making real films again, Bluth didn't seem to have much going for him besides trying to be "the next Walt Disney". He wanted to make the kind of stories Disney refused to make when he quit the company in 1979, and for a while it worked. But did he ever think of what would happen when Disney got their moxie back? After The Little Mermaid, Bluth was now in line with the competition that was copying the new Disney piece-by-piece, and the only time it started to work was with Anastasia.

enigmawing wrote:

Uh...

Pizza Hut?

Yeah, the interesting thing with Don Bluth is that his only three box-office successes weren't because of him or the quality of them. An American Tail and The Land Before Time were hits, because of Spielberg's name on the poster and that man had some sort of Midas Touch during the 1980s where 90% of the projects he was attached to as director or producer were huge hits.

And Anastasia was a box-office hit, because everybody thought it was the newest Disney release. People still think it's from Disney!

Really, the 1980s is one of the most dire decades in animation history (in North America, anyway). At the time, you only had:

- Disney
- Don Bluth
- Kiddie Saturday morning adaptations (like Care Bears, Pound Puppies, Strawberry Shortcake)
- Adult animation (Rock n Rule, Plague Dogs, Heavy Metal, Ralph Bakshi)

Meanwhile, Japanese animation was prospering at the time over in its home country, with the Studio Ghibli efforts, most notably Miyazaki's works and Grave of the Fireflies and other studios like TMS producing hits like Akira. Maybe, somebody more well-versed on the history of anime can expand on that.

Semaj wrote:Disney was still struggling with the concept of putting their most successful movies out on the video market at the time. They knew early on that a video release would end their long-running practice of re-releasing the films in theatres every 7-10 years.

Exactly. Which is why I mention it was a whole different beast back then. I'm actually curious about the sales/rental comparisons between Lady and the Tramp and An American Tale on VHS and how The Great Mouse Detective might have done had it been released at that time.

Semaj wrote:While the threat of Don Bluth helped wake Disney up into making real films again, Bluth didn't seem to have much going for him besides trying to be "the next Walt Disney". He wanted to make the kind of stories Disney refused to make when he quit the company in 1979, and for a while it worked. But did he ever think of what would happen when Disney got their moxie back?

I'm guessing he didn't expect them to; I don't think anyone had faith that Disney would get their moxie back with the point they had reached in 1979.

Lazario wrote:Pizza Hut?

Yep!

estefan wrote:Yeah, the interesting thing with Don Bluth is that his only three box-office successes weren't because of him or the quality of them. An American Tail and The Land Before Time were hits, because of Spielberg's name on the poster and that man had some sort of Midas Touch during the 1980s where 90% of the projects he was attached to as director or producer were huge hits.

I'll agree that's a big part of it. For example there was a lot of hype surrounding An American Tail due to Spielberg's name (the average person still really doesn't know who Don Bluth is), and I think there was something about the trailers that spoke to audiences . . . who wouldn't feel sorry for the cutely-drawn mouse that lost his family? Oh, and that song, that song . . . the pop version of "Somewhere Out There" got constant radio play was a slick promotion that didn't seem to happen again until Beauty and the Beast came out. The poor reviews and mediocre story didn't scare people off.

enigmawing wrote:

That really is rather mean- to put a value of one above another. Encouraging kids to see Petrie as a loser. I'm surprised they didn't put him underneath Sharptooth in the text. "We know you don't want that pathetic nothing, but if you do, and yes- it makes you sad, it'll cost you 99 pennies."

kids wouldnt care. It's the parents that think about money. kids just think about toys.

And it's been sooooo long since I saw anything related to Feivel. I'll have to netflix American Tail.