pap64 wrote:Menken didn't score Princess and the Frog, Randy Newman did. Instead of judging the music based on Menken's past work judge it on its own and give credit where credit is due.
Well, I don't think that a little speculation does anyone any harm (after all, it's often interesting to think of what-ifs such as if Alan Silvestri had scored Pirates of the Caribbean as he was originally meant to before he was replaced by Zimmer's team), but it's true that it shouldn't get out of hand. I for one will enjoy listening to Newman's score and songs for TPatF, particularly "When I'm Human" and "Friends on the Other Side".
There's no doubt that Newman wrote functional songs and score for TPatF. He has the knowledge about the different types of music in New Orleans, and he managed to use those well enough in his score. To his credit I can say that TPatF ranks among his better works, and I'm happy about it being so because I know the end result could've ended up much, much worse.
However, one has to keep in mind that an artist's work will always be compared to his or her previous (and future) output. Just like many music critics will always compare Menken's music to Beauty and the Beast, the same is also true of many other artists, including Newman (as in comparing the artist's work for what people consider the artist's magnum opus, whichever work it happens to be at a time). In this case I can't help but notice Newman's repetitive patterns in pretty much all his feature film scores (when I compare them to one another) and thus these facts point out that Newman might be a one-trick pony in the end. It isn't necessarily a bad thing but it can be kind of irksome when you know he has talent but for some reason just doesn't pour all of it out in more diverse ways.
There's also the fact that when two composers work for the same directorial team in different films, their work is often compared to one another. Case in point, David Arnold and later the team of Thomas Wander & Harad Kloser for the films of Roland Emmerich. Such comparisons have happened before and will happen again, and it's part of the analysis of music from a stylistic point of view and as such I see nothing wrong in it. In this case Newman and Menken have both worked for the same directors for the animated musical fairy tale format, and for that reason I find it fair to compare their different stylistic approaches to this particular musical genre.
As I've listened to Newman's output throughout the years, I've noticed that he's better at writing songs than writing the actual underscore. This becomes quite clear in TPatF which pretty much showcases Newman's strengths and weaknesses on scoring films and musicals. Overall I find TPatF enjoyable (particularly most of the songs) but the score doesn't quite grab me like it did with various other composers (Menken, Debney). I guess the score I could compare it to might be Mancina's score for Brother Bear: both scores are functional and show occasional beauty but they feel like a retread in some ways. It isn't necessarily audible for people who experience their works for the first time, but when you hear enough of their output, you can't help but notice the repetition.
Also, even if Menken was chosen to do the songs it wouldn't guarantee that the film would be better because of it. Remember, he did Home on the Range, and that is a movie despised by many. And as inspired as Enchanted was, not all of the songs were winners.
I hope it didn't seem that I said that Menken would be a golden goose because that wasn't my intention. He too has his share of songs (and score in some cases) which make me feel indifferent, and in that regard he isn't different from any other composer out there. Everyone has their hits and "flops", after all.
For the record, I've read many analyses from music critics who despise Menken's music in Hercules. I, however, enjoyed the music in that film from the most part despite some irksome things. It isn't Menken's best work, IMHO, but still very enjoyable. In the end much of this is subjective so there are always going to be people who disagree with us on various matters, including music.
As for Home on the Range, I'm on the camp that supports the film. It isn't a masterpiece to me, but it's an enjoyable and emotional experience both story and musicwise. There are beautiful moments in the film, and the songs and score are an affectionate parody of western cliches in a good way, which helps elevate the film. One good example is the song "Will the Sun Ever Shine Again" which I found very emotional and a perfect song for the scene it's played in as it helps us connect with the characters in a deeper level than "just" comedy.
As for Enchanted, I actually enjoyed it quite a bit. While the film parodied Disney's storytelling etc. conventions, Menken's music likewise parodied Disney's music. "True Love's Kiss", for instance, is about as big a parody in cheesiness as any song can be, and yet it works and actually supports not only the notion of affectionate parody but also the grand emotions of the scene it's played in. I enjoyed all of the songs in the film, and it seems the academy and the audience liked the songs too because three of the songs were nominated for the Academy Award for Best Song. Menken's score was likewise dramatic and fluffy in the right places, and I really enjoyed the choral throwbacks to Disney's classics of yesteryear as well as the nice thematic development in the score (not to mention the beautiful orchestral/choral suite at the end of the film).
I agree with you on how a composer's presence doesn't always guarantee success. Famous and skilled composers like Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams have occasionally composed forgettable or even dreadfully bad scores. However, I'd say that when a composer succeeds in his work, even a "bad" film can become better. One example is Krull, a film which I find terrible but which has a stunningly beautiful score which helps make the film tolerable. Another example, this time from Menken, could be the remake of the Shaggy Dog. I find that film rather forgettable but Menken's music really helps you connect with the characters with catchy and beautiful themes.
Of course there's so much more to a film than just its music. Animated films not only have music but voice acting, script, animation etc. which come together to create the film we experience in the cinema or at home. A stunning score can't salvage an awful script or awful acting but it can elevate the scenes it's played in (assuming it isn't drowned too much by sound effects). In essence bad music doesn't necessarily make a good film worse, but good music can make a bad film better, at least in my opinion.
I think the soundtrack is great. All of the songs fit the characters, the setting and the mood of the film well. I also think its one of the more unique soundtrack in the Disney canon thanks to how well it incorporate the songs of the era into the story.
I'm glad you find it enjoyable, and I don't intend to belittle it. I find the songs fine and the score okay (as I expected them to be from the day I first heard that Newman had become the composer for the film) but I feel Newman could've produced something even better in the end. This is of course just my opinion. And as I said in an earlier post, this film was likely a dream come true for Newman because it meant he could compose in his comfort zone as it was based on the musical styles of New Orleans which Newman is familiar of.
As I've probably mentioned earlier, I'm only basing my opinion on what I know so far (Newman's previous output, the clips I've seen and heard). Once I see the film in its entirety and hear all the score and songs in context, I'll be able to form a final conclusion on its effectiveness. There are times when Disney's soundtracks don't really make me feel anything until I actually hear the music in context (a good example is Meet the Robinsons which had an okay soundtrack but which ended up having a lot of great unreleased score in the film itself). I hope that this is also the case with TPatF.
Marce82 wrote:But there are moments where the timing or wording feels forced. How hard was he trying to fit the word "responsibility" into Tiana's section of "When we're human"??? Actually, her section of that song feels like its a different "rhythm" than the other two. And its not the music, its the lyrics.
Did Newman actually write lyrics for the songs himself or did he have someone helping him? If it's the latter, Newman might not be at fault because then the lyrics would've come from another person.
Although I find the "responsibility" line a bit odd, it's hard to judge it properly until I actually see and hear it in the full musical scene. Perhaps Tiana's section sticks out not because of awkward lyrics but because it's meant to emphasize Tiana's view on life (hard work etc.) as well as her criticism (to me she sounds determined and annoyed in her bit, which would support this theory) of Naveen's care-free lifestyle (and to a lesser extent Louis's dream of playing the trumpet).
"Down in New Orleans"...I happen to find it boring...and with a very odd beat.
I too don't consider it one of the best songs in the soundtrack, but I find the beat interesting and from what I've read about the music of the region, it seems to be a rather accurate depiction of the era's music. It's probably also synchronized to the action on screen so it'll likely work better once one sees the scene it's played in.
My fav is "Dig a Little Deeper", and even in that song there are odd timing moments. Like the line "money ain't got not love, money ain't got no soul". Shouldnt there have been another beat inbetween those? Does it feel forced, or is it just me?
I didn't notice anything awkward during the "money" bit. It helps the rhythm "bounce" (for a lack of a better term) and is likely there to emphasize what the lyrics are about (because you notice the difference and then you notice that the difference is there to foreground other elements of the song, in this instance the lyrics). I also find it kind of ironic that the lines about money could also been seen as a criticism for capitalist attitude in general (and a jab at Disney's aggressive marketing machine). I'm sure critics will have a field day analyzing the "hidden" messages in these songs.
And in Almost there....HOW MANY TIMES CAN HE REPEAT THE PHRASE: "ALMOST THERE"???
That's a stylistic issue, I assume, although I would've preferred a bit more variation. Still, it gets the job done and maybe the repetition is there to once again foreground the lyrics (as in Tiana repeating the phrase a lot to emphasize her desire to reach her goal and the excitement about how she's... "almost there").
But I do agree that PatF is probably his best soundtrack to date in terms of songs. As was pointed out here earlier, I do think he tries to cram in too many words into a melody line, but I think the melody and the performances of Anika, Bruno, Keith David, Jenifer Lewis all help to enliven them and make them greatly enjoyable.