DVDizzy Forum

Ernest Rister wrote: I'm not telling people what they should LIKE. But if I made a poll asking people to list the "25 best Disney animated features", I'd make damn sure the people voting knew what was meant by "best" as opposed to "favorite".

I'm glad it's not your poll then!

Ernest Rister wrote:I'm not telling you what you should LIKE. I'm not telling you what your opinion SHOULD be. I'm just telling you the lay of the land. Facts are facts. Truth is Truth.

This is the last I'll say:

Art is subjective.

There is no fact or truth in art.

Everyone has an individual opinion of it.

That is the beauty of it.

When someone comes along and dictates what is a good peice of art and what isn't, then it isn't art anymore.

Can we please either agree to disagree, go back to discusing the countdown results, or simply continue without going after one another?

Luke wrote:Can we please either agree to disagree, go back to discusing the countdown results, or simply continue without going after one another?

I agree. We are getting a little OT.

But we aren't going after each other.

We have the facts and the lay of the land now.

Should be much easier from here on in

Maerj wrote:

Ernest Rister wrote: I'm not telling people what they should LIKE. But if I made a poll asking people to list the "25 best Disney animated features", I'd make damn sure the people voting knew what was meant by "best" as opposed to "favorite".

I'm glad it's not your poll then!

Ernest. I want to tell you that I have seen enough of your opinion. Everybody has their own opinion on the matter. And they should be allowed to hold to their own opinion on the matter.

Why all the hatin' on Homeward Bound? Dude... now I feel strangely bad for liking that film! O_o

It is an interesting arguement, though - whether art is subjective or not. We're touching on that issue slightly in my cinema studies class. I would think that - art being art - by its very nature is abstract, and therefore subject to many different interpretations. Facts may be facts, but truth is one of those tricky virtues that's highly personalized. Everyone has their own truth they live by.
But then of course, if art is so subjective, then why do we have countless awards ceremonies every year to crown THE best film, or THE best album, etc.? O_o

I think ya also have to think about the spectrum in any given media - be it sculpture, celluoid, oils, or the written word. Every form of media has its profound, artful, well-constructed "aesthetic" side, and its lighter, more superficial "entertainment" side. And all the possibilities in between. For music, it's the difference between classical and jazz.

But I do kinda dig the point Ernest was making about personal likes versus what usually consitutes a good film. I mean, hey - I love Quest for Camelot and Annabelle's Wish, but I also know that they aren't good films in general - in the whole scheme of things. But people can get highly agitated if their opinions and personal truths are encroached upon - it's just an instinctual thing, actually.

"But I do kinda dig the point Ernest was making about personal likes versus what usually consitutes a good film. I mean, hey - I love Quest for Camelot and Annabelle's Wish, but I also know that they aren't good films in general - in the whole scheme of things."

EXACTLY! I love Mystery at Dracula's Castle -- is it one of the best Disney films? NO! Laughably no! But is it fun? YES!

That's my point! That's the distinction I've been hammering at, while everyone else is getting their dander up. Everyone likes what they like...and yet, if you become educated in film craft, there are CLEAR, UNDENIABLE, TRUE examples of GREAT CRAFTSMANSHIP, that any educated film goer or filmmaker would bring into consideration in an evaluation of a work of filmed art. It is inescapable, undeniable, unavoidable. Arguments to the contrary are VANITY. "Oh, my opinion is as valuable as Glen Keanne! My opinion is as valuable as Frank Thomas! My opinion is as valuable as Walt Disney!" Hey, guess what? NO, your opinion is NOT as informed and as valuable on the subject of animation as those who actually made the films. Your opinion on what you LIKE is beyind debate, because who can argue with you about what you LIKE. Argue with Eric Goldberg about which Disney animated film is the best -- you better come to the table with something more than "it's more funner than Dumbo!"

"But people can get highly agitated if their opinions and personal truths are encroached upon - it's just an instinctual thing, actually."

So much so, they can't even see the simple truths right in front of their faces.

Ernest Rister wrote:. Hey, guess what? NO, your opinion is NOT as informed and as valuable on the subject of animation as those who actually made the films. [...]

So much so, they can't even see the simple truths right in front of their faces.

You know, Ernest - I apologize if we have treated you unfairly on this forum. We chastised you for belittling our opinions, and making us feel as though our opinions are not worth a dime in this poll (which, I should point out is called Top 20, not THE greatest films....)

Quite obviously, we were mistaken. Our thoughts on the subject of animation are not worth a salt. We are, after all, just fans - not really the sort of people who are qualified to talk about something we have never made.

Wait a minute. Some of the people on this forum are animators. Oh, and some of us have been fans for decades. Does that make our opinions count? No, no it doesn't. Once again, I have to yield to people who have made animation, for their opinions are, of course, as objective as you or I. The people at Disney wouldn't possibly call their own films 'classics' or 'masterpieces'. That would be too vain and subjective.

*the mystical curtain rises, there stands Loomis*

You're it the right place. It's the Loom.

You know what, Ernest. I've given you the benefit of the doubt for a little. At first I thought you were being a little condescendiing to the crowd here. I've changed my mind. You ARE being a little condescending to the crowd here. As a fan of feature animation for many years, I think I am qualified to give an opinion on the subject, as is everybody here - that is the very nature of the internet forum. For people who don't have to have a career in animation to express their LOVE of the medium.

You talk of seeing the simple truth in front of your face. Step back for a second and you'll see that the truth in front of your face is actually a certain passage, into which your head is firmly planted.

"Wait a minute. Some of the people on this forum are animators."

Really? As in Disney animators? Character animators? Stop motion? Claymation? Oil-on-Glass? CGI? Regardless of how many animators yuo refer to, there were not enouh "animators" to outweigh the youngsters who think Lion King was a better film than Fantasia. In which case, I'm inclined to disregard the opinons of the so-called animators who post here.

"Some of the people on this forum are animators!"

Yeah - maybe some. But a LOT of the people who posted their choices for "best animated feature" wouldn't know a great piece of animation if it walked up and bit them in the ass.

"Oh, and some of us have been fans for decades."

Oooh! That might win you a "Rescue Rangers" trivia contest. It obviously doesn't give you insight into why The Lion King is a kid-centric knockoff of Bambi.

"Does that make our opinions count? No, no it doesn't."

Your opinions count when they are backed up by knowledge and experience. That's one of the problems of American public schools - they instill this false notion that every opinion is equally valid. Yeah, well, next time I break a leg, I'll make sure to save money on a doctor's opinion and ask the next door neighbor on how to put my leg back together. Next time my appendix bursts, I'll be sure to save money by asking the opinion of my grocery clerk. Next time I want to see a quality movie, I'll make sure to ask the tweeners on Nickelodeon.com, because all opinions are equally valid, and surely they know what the best American films are....

I am so sick of the vanity of Americans, who have been raised by uber-sensitive grade school teachers into actually believing that all their opinions are equally valid. What a bunch of arrogant nonsense!

All opinions are equally valid? Tell that to the Supreme Court the next time they try a case. Tell that to a referee on a football field. Tell that to a FILM DIRECTOR who has to decide how his day should proceed. All opinions are equally valid? Maybe in Grade School -- but in the Real World, the truth is something different. Best you bite down and swallow that fact right now.

"Once again, I have to yield to people who have made animation, for their opinions are, of course, as objective as you or I."

On the subject of what are the "best" animated films, I'll trust industry professionals over fanboys any day of the week. On the subject of what are the "favorite" animated films of the general public, mob mentality reigns. Who can argue with individual favoritism?

Are you starting to get past your ego and understand now what I'm saying? What you LIKE may not necessarily be considered by industry professionals, and critics, and historians, as the BEST? That you may like something that industry pros consider a piece of crap?

"You know what, Ernest. I've given you the benefit of the doubt for a little. At first I thought you were being a little condescendiing to the crowd here. I've changed my mind. You ARE being a little condescending to the crowd here. As a fan of feature animation for many years, I think I am qualified to give an opinion on the subject, as is everybody here"

Bull#@$%. A 12 year old Mickey Mouse Club fan is not as qualified as others on this forum to give their opinion on the history of Disney animation, or Disney live action films. You are free to EXPRESS your opinions. Welcome to America. But you are not immune to being IGNORANT and WRONG about your opinions, no more so than a 12 year old tweener who thinks Pirates of the Caribbean is the best live-action film ever made by the Disney company.

"- that is the very nature of the internet forum. For people who don't have to have a career in animation to express their LOVE of the medium."

Yes, exactly! And you know what? Expression results in FEEDBACK! Express a belief that The Lion King is a greater animated film than Fantasia, get ready for informed artists, animators, and historians to give their own feedback in the form of mocking laughter!

"You talk of seeing the simple truth in front of your face. Step back for a second and you'll see that the truth in front of your face is actually a certain passage, into which your head is firmly planted."

7th grade insults still won't change the fact that certain people contributing to this forum have forgotten more about animation than you will ever know.

Peace out,

ER3

Ernest dearest, please try to calm down. You're giving me a headache.
I am also annoyed that certain modern Disney films are being liked better than some favorites of mine from Walt's era, but you must understand that different people have different opinions on films. Many people like different things and see different things in the same movies, but that's no reason to attack them and tell they're wrong. You'll feel much better if you learn not to let these kind of things bother you so much.
You have some good points in your opinions but your way of presenting them is not very attractive.

"Wait a minute. Some of the people on this forum are animators."

Really? As in Disney animators? Character animators? Stop motion? Claymation? Oil-on-Glass? CGI? Regardless of how many animators yuo refer to, there were not enouh "animators" to outweigh the youngsters who think Lion King was a better film than Fantasia. In which case, I'm inclined to disregard the opinons of the so-called animators who post here.

We have at least one Disney animator of this forum. He works at Disney Studios Australia. I suppose you think that doesn't make him an animator because he doesn't work at the fabled Burbank studio, and has to struggle with time and budget deadlines.

Way to go Ernest. Great way to alienate and offend hard working and talented creators who are doing the best they can.

Yeah - maybe some. But a LOT of the people who posted their choices for "best animated feature" wouldn't know a great piece of animation if it walked up and bit them in the ass.

Weren't they voting for their, top animated feature? It's a rather informal grading. Either way, great animation doesn't make a good picture. And of course there's a skew towards the newer films. It's a small membership and the site is about Disney films, so tends to attract more younger members then older. It's hardly a scientific survey.

I am so sick of the vanity of Americans, who have been raised by uber-sensitive grade school teachers into actually believing that all their opinions are equally valid. What a bunch of arrogant nonsense!

I would imagine when selecting THEIR OWN personal favourite films, their opinion is way more valid than anyone else's. Your making more of this then there ever was intended. Our board is small, and this is only supposed to be FUN!

Uh...hi... I'm a little afraid of entering this discussion.

I guess I can see both sides here. Art is definitely subjective and everyone's entitled to their own opinion (and nobody likes being told they have poor taste or judgement). But at the same time I understand where Ernest is coming from because I'm also very passionate about Disney (and what I consider the greatest Disney films).

And I must admit I rolled my eyes and made sounds of disgust when I saw some of the movies people were putting at the top of their lists. It's frustrating to see older films I love being overlooked and forgotten by so many people.

But I try to keep in mind that there's nothing I can do about it. Lord knows I've tried changing people's opinions, but it never seems to work. And life is too short to be angry all the time.

I still struggle though, to suppress the feeling of..."oh if I just present people with all the facts...with what I believe to be the truth... then surely they'll start seeing things my way!"

Anyway, about the Countdown... Personally when I voted for my Top 20, I tried to find a balance between choosing personal favorites and choosing "the best" from a critical perspective. Emotion and reason. It's good to have both.

Plus, most of my favorites are THE BEST anyway...so...

chrisrose wrote:And I must admit I rolled my eyes and made sounds of disgust when I saw some of the movies people were putting at the top of their lists. It's frustrating to see older films I love being overlooked and forgotten by so many people.

I still struggle though, to suppress the feeling of..."oh if I just present people with all the facts...with what I believe to be the truth... then surely they'll start seeing things my way!"

That sounds just like me...

I am relatively new to this forum, I am a 23 year old guy who who grew up on practically only Disney. As a kid, the only things that I watched that weren't Disney were Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Popeye, & He-man. I have seen almost every single Disney animated classic at the theaters, the only ones I never saw at theaters were Mulan, Hercules, Treasure Planet, The Sword in the Stone, Alice In Wonderland, and the 40's compilation movies.

I didn't grow up on just the more recent Disney animation, I grew up on ALL of them. My very first movie my mother took me to see was Fantasia. I have very fond memories of my mom taking me to see Snow White, Bambi, Peter Pan, and The Jungle Book (just to mention a few). But I also grew up on The Great Mouse Detective, The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, and Aladdin.

Now, I might be wrong but, I thought these polls were set up for everyone to vote for their FAVORITE. Not the BEST. And a movie doesn't deserve to be called the best because of technical achievments. You seem to be forgetting story and characters. Now, I think that Bambi, Snow White, Peter Pan, The Jungle Book, Dumbo, & Alice in Wonderland are some of Disney's best. I also think that Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, Little Mermaid, & Hunchback of Notre Dame are some of the best. Does that belittle Bambi, Snow White or Peter Pan? No.

I have never been a big fan of The Lion King, I thought it was just too hyped up for me and didn't deliver. But who am I to degrade someone else's opinion of it. Someone else might have had a very magical experience of it, or maybe found something in it that I didn't, so once again who am I to belittle how they feel about it?

I am just kind of left speechless by the arguement...er...discussion going on her and how one person tries to belittle everyone's comments. I used to think that everything after Aladdin was crap. I was not a fan of recent animation (exceptions Tarzan & Hunchback). Two years ago you probably couldn't have gotten me to watch Mulan again. But back in September I watched it again, and you know what? It made it to my Top 20 list. I rediscovered the characters and story, and it was actually a pretty magical movie to me. I am also a very big fan of Treasure Planet, a movie I think is highly underrated.

Just because a movie is older and from Walt's era and made technical achievements doesn't mean it is the best of all the forty-some animated movies. Beauty and the Beast actually became the only animated movie to receive a Best Picture Oscar nomination. And there some one is saying it is not one of the best. That might mean nothing to someone, it wouldn't impact my thoughts on the best, but just a point for Beauty and the Beast! haha.

Everyone's thoughts on the best Disney is going to be different. But these two polls were on the favorite. Don't get the two confused.
Sorry about the incoherent rambling...haha

Ernest Rister wrote:Yeah - maybe some. But a LOT of the people who posted their choices for "best animated feature" wouldn't know a great piece of animation if it walked up and bit them in the ass.

I suppose you are right. Those of us don't work in the film industry are an ignorant lot. Last time I checked, as 2099 correctly pointed out, this was meant to be a fun Countdown about your personal Top 20 for the nice little community we've developed here. If you don't think that it is "professional enough" then may I suggest a number of forums visited largely by animators.

May I ask as to the nature of your employment? I only ask because, given that I am unqualified as to express my opinion, I would like to know how one so great got so far?

For example, http://pub26.ezboard.com/banimatorsink
However, if you can put up with us all (I know it's hard), please - we welcome you. Just try to keep it fun.

Ernest Rister wrote:I am so sick of the vanity of Americans, who have been raised by uber-sensitive grade school teachers into actually believing that all their opinions are equally valid. What a bunch of arrogant nonsense!

What about the vanity of the Australians, English, French, Spanish, Germans, Canadian, Swedish, Norwegian, Mexican, Belgian, Portuguese, Scottish, Dutch and Singaporean. And more. People from all over the world, with different ideals and lifestyles have come together on this forum to share a common interest - Disney. We are a fun little community, or at least we were. Now we have to justify being a fan? No worse! We don't have to justify it - we just have to accept that our opinions don't count because we have been raised by "uber-sensitive grade school teachers into actually believing that are their opinions are valid".
Newsflash - all those animators you praise so much? They went through the education system you belittle. So does that mean that they have valid opinions on animation, but were raised as idiots as well? You can't have it both ways, mate.

You are free to EXPRESS your opinions. Welcome to America. But you are not immune to being IGNORANT and WRONG about your opinions, no more so than a 12 year old tweener who thinks Pirates of the Caribbean is the best live-action film ever made by the Disney company.

Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion. Welcome to UltimateDisney.com. Also, those animators you kneel down before are not immune to being ignorant and wrong as well. Disney is, after all, a studio that refers to its own movies as classics and masterpieces. Some of them haven't even been in the theatres for 3 months. Does this sound like an objective group of people to you?

In this case too, it would seem that the Academy agrees with the 12 y.o. (they are still a group of professionals aren't they?). Pirates of the Caribbean has earned 5 nominations. Not to shabby. Then again, maybe the Academy doesn't really have that much experience in deciding these things....

I also like to say good job! You've made every 12 year old on this board who ever felt happy about being in a group of people who love talking about Disney, even with people twice or three times their age, feel about 2 inches tall. Nice one, o enlightened one!

Ernest, when you first joined the forum, I really considered you to be a really insightful, intelligent forum member. I really thought you were going to be a great addition to the site. But after this discussion, I must say I'm kind of dissapointed.

You're insulting mine and other people's intelligence by saying things like "you wouldn't know a good animated film if it came up and bit you the ass".

Please, stop showing such a disregard for other people's opinion's and beliefs. Treat others the way you want to be treated. That's what makes a forum a nice place to have conversations.

I have to agree with the forum members who have stated that it's important to respect other's opinions here. We don't have to agree with each other, but I think it is essential to treat others with respect and to NOT insult them.