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She knew that what she was saying could have possibly made Disney's animators and the film itself look bad. The animators told her not to say it, and then she said, because now they're dead, she could say it! So she did. Without clarity of exactly what it was they did, drawing over live-action but only looking at it for reference in the free-hand animation.

...what the heck?

So Marge Champion has a singular vendetta against the Disney animators, and now that they are dead she plans to crap on their memories despite other animators pleading with her not to? Is that really what you're saying?

In this interview from 1998, she goes into great detail about working on the film (watch from 3:15 to 16:56 or so). Around the 13:00 mark she mentions how she was rotoscoped, and how one of the animators told her how he would trace her footage enough times for the animators to use. But what's important is what she says after mentioning that she was rotoscoped: "And I said, 'But I didn't know.' That was the one thing that Disney was afraid of: is that people thought they traced certain characters. Now, it isn't absolutely true. The animators make judgments about what they would use and what they needed to trace and how many frames they could leave out, or even add to. But the thing is, they really did use my image. <snip> Particularly with the dance sequences, and a lot of the action sequences too when she really gets frightened and stuff."

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albert

I'd say, particularly in this (their first full-length piece where human characters carried the bulk of the story), that the animators might have paid close particular attention to the live-action footage, because I imagine a lot of their work in animating the human form was trial/error during this period.

This isn't to say that some pieces might have been lifted directly from the live action references (traced or rotoscoped). Remember it was only a matter of a few short years between "Snow White" and some of the rubbbery human animation seen in their short subjects.

Jeez. What an awful, awful woman.

Thanks for the video Scaps. That certainly clears things up and is wonderfully informative. It reminds me how different animators called the live-action reference rotoscoping, but others didn't.

It would have been nice if this woman would have talked in-length about what was done with her image, knowing, so well, what it would mean about the animators and the film, and that it wasn't all tracing the exact image into paper. Of course she's still nice but...

The thing is, you can't draw a differently proportioned/designed person over top one photo of a person, and then draw that differently designed person over top the next photo again and have that differently designed person stay the same as the one in the previous drawing like the real person stays the same in the photo.

It's just something to think about to get a grasp on how much work even goes into animating a new person over another person. In fact, that can't really be done unless the new person isn't new at all and looks exactly like the old person (for instance, Snow White's head would keep changing noticeabley from frame to frame). You'd have to animate a new person out of, from another person. If it helps, think of enigmawing's Snoopy example. In a way, to suggest it was straight tracing would be almost flattering. "Wow, you think my character looks exactly like a real person, proportions and all?"

SpringHeelJack wrote:Jeez. What an awful, awful woman.

She was part of the Snow White panel discussion at the D23 Expo, which was lead by Don Hahn and included Eric Goldberg, Andreas Deja, and two film historians. The funny thing is that she said there that she was rotoscoped and Don Hahn said "Oh really? I never heard that" in a way that was like "yeah yeah, you loony."

My boyfriend used to live in L.A. and go to lots of Disney events and said that she is famous for fighting with modern animators because she swears they simply traced over her and that is what is used in Snow White, and they say she was only used as a reference and never rotoscoped. So it's an interesting situation.

I'm not quite sure who to believe. Obviously if they did rotoscope Marge, they still had to be creative with it. They certainly made great strides between Goddess of Spring and Snow White in terms of human animation, but then again I don't believe they even used a live action reference for that short. So it's possible that the animators are right, that they didn't rotoscope her, but now they had the live action reference to show them how the arm movements and gestures should be.

I think Brendan was being sarcastic with the "awful woman" remark.

Either way, if it's fully rotoscoped or not, Snow White does move well on the screen.

albert

Escapay wrote:In this interview from 1998, she goes into great detail about working on the film (watch from 3:15 to 16:56 or so). Around the 13:00 mark she mentions how she was rotoscoped, and how one of the animators told her how he would trace her footage enough times for the animators to use. But what's important is what she says after mentioning that she was rotoscoped: "And I said, 'But I didn't know.' That was the one thing that Disney was afraid of: is that people thought they traced certain characters. Now, it isn't absolutely true. The animators make judgments about what they would use and what they needed to trace and how many frames they could leave out, or even add to. But the thing is, they really did use my image. <snip> Particularly with the dance sequences, and a lot of the action sequences too when she really gets frightened and stuff."

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albert

Yes I wish I'd been there at Disney D23 , and had the chance to get her autograph !

I think she looks amazing in this interview , still a very elegant lady.

I wonder if Disney uses an interview with her in the forthcoming Blu Ray? I hope so as she's one of the last people alive who worked on the movie!

Muir

PS : This should be on the Snow White thread too!

Deco King wrote: Yes I wish I'd been there at Disney D23 , and had the chance to get her autograph !

I don't believe she was doing autographs at the Expo, she was only talking on the panel. Can you imagine a 90 something-year-old woman doing hundreds of autographs? I wish she had though, it would have been amazing to get her autograph.

Speaking of the D23 Expo, I've really got to get my video of the panel discussion for Snow White up (which I'm pretty sure was against the rules to do, but I did it anyway ). Blame my friend, he has yet to send it to me

Oy, I opened up a bucket full of worms here...

*Writes down "Disney and rotoscoping" on list of things never to discuss at Ultimate Disney if I want to keep my sanity intact

ColorsOfTheWind wrote:

Deco King wrote: Yes I wish I'd been there at Disney D23 , and had the chance to get her autograph !

I don't believe she was doing autographs at the Expo, she was only talking on the panel. Can you imagine a 90 something-year-old woman doing hundreds of autographs? I wish she had though, it would have been amazing to get her autograph.

Speaking of the D23 Expo, I've really got to get my video of the panel discussion for Snow White up (which I'm pretty sure was against the rules to do, but I did it anyway ). Blame my friend, he has yet to send it to me

I know...I'd have wanted her to autograph my DVD of "Show Boat". She was an amazing dancer in her heydey.

Wow goofystitch, once agian informative with something really interesting. It seems it's not just me, but many top animators worried about what Marge has said.

Though I am confused. It seems she did say in the interview that didn't just trace, but maybe traced some, but really just referenced it. Or maybe they traced, but then looked at the tracing, and free-handed teh final animation.

It's too bad Helen Stanley who modeled for Cinderella and Aurora is not still alive. By the way, Ilene Woods, the voice of Cinderella, well, her parents, and her child, recognized her in the film. It could have been just her voice for her daughter, but her parents said they recognized her actions and the things she did in Cinderella's character, like squinting eyes. Goes to show the animators did a lot more than (or didn't do at all)just tracing someone. They observed and studied, and they worked to get even the smallest details of how a human person would be in their human characters, even from those they didn't film and draw over.

enigmawing wrote:People eventually adopted the term to define direct referencing of live-action film (or even other existing animation) frame by frame when animating. I recall a Peanuts special where they explain how they photographed a dancer's routine specifically for "Flashbeagle." While they referred to the technique as rotoscoping, clearly they could not fit Snoopy's short, round anatomy over the girl's tall, slender figure and directly trace it. Instead, they had photostats made up of the dancer and the animator referred to them for free-handing Snoopy's poses for each frame.

I stumbled upon the Peanuts special on youtube today and actually remembered this thread. The Flash Beagle section of the clip starts at 1:42, and the live-action reference/rotoscoping explanation begins at 2:25.

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Oh, man, that was too 80's overload for me, ha. It should barely be counted as rotoscoping since it was Snoopy they were drawing, so not tracing so directly. American Pop (which I love), now that was rotoscoping, ha. What was that Flash Beagle bit from, anyway? Since they never released the 80's decade collection and I don't have a great memory in general, ha... (I actually still need the 3rd decade collection, but I can't find it in stores now and am too broke at the moment anyway; I'll get it eventually though).

slave2moonlight wrote:Oh, man, that was too 80's overload for me, ha. It should barely be counted as rotoscoping since it was Snoopy they were drawing, so not tracing so directly.

As I just reiterated . . .

enigmawing wrote:People eventually adopted the term to define direct referencing of live-action film (or even other existing animation) frame by frame when animating.

slave2moonlight wrote:American Pop (which I love), now that was rotoscoping, ha.

I remember that airing on late night TNT back in the mid-'90s (along with Heavy Metal and Rock & Rule, I need to give it another look one of these days.

slave2moonlight wrote:What was that Flash Beagle bit from, anyway? Since they never released the 80's decade collection and I don't have a great memory in general, ha... (I actually still need the 3rd decade collection, but I can't find it in stores now and am too broke at the moment anyway; I'll get it eventually though).

It's Flashbeagle, Charlie Brown was the 27th Peanuts special, first airing in 1984. It's available as a bonus feature on the Snoopy's Reunion DVD.

That song just might be one of my guilty pleasures, lol . . . but probably because I loved it so much when I was 8 years old.

slave2moonlight wrote:Oh, man, that was too 80's overload for me, ha. It should barely be counted as rotoscoping since it was Snoopy they were drawing, so not tracing so directly. American Pop (which I love), now that was rotoscoping, ha.

Rotoscoping has never been exact tracing, otherwise they would make the characters look exactly like the live-acion models, and they wouldn't fit the character designs they invented.

Remember, some animators called "live-action reference" rotoscoping. From what I understand, Disney's animators never used their tracings in the final animation, they just referenced the tracings of live-action, thus it was called "live action reference" as it always is on Disney bonus features. So as far as I know Disney never truly rotoscoped like they did in, say, Gulliver's travels. If they did Snoopy type rotoscoping, I'm a little sad but, oh well, it's not exact tracing.

I didn't mean exact tracing, but pretty close in some stuff. In the case of Snoopy, I'd call that live-action referencing and NOT rotoscoping, but maybe that's just how I define the word.

enigmawing wrote: I remember that airing on late night TNT back in the mid-'90s (along with Heavy Metal and Rock & Rule, I need to give it another look one of these days.

Yeah, ha, that's where I discovered all those movies and first got into Anime (since they also would air Vampire Hunter D when TBS played the same movies; not that I ever got heavy into watching Anime beyond Sailor Moon, but I still wouldn't mind getting more into it eventually).

Thanks for the info on the special too.