DVDizzy Forum

How did you come to that conclusion may I ask?

Because of the songs. What does everybody care about in these movies? The songs. What aspects one the awards? the songs. What do people look forward to most while watching these movies? the songs.

Personally I get more satisfaction out of listening to these films soundtracks more than I do watching these (the 1990s) movies. And even then there are still songs from other Disney movies which I enjoy much more.

Another thing I thought of is how the Disney movies form the 90s have twisted the publics view on what a Disney films should be. Just look at Don Bluth's Anastasia. That film follows the Disney formula to a tee, which not only shows how bland and simple and repetitive the formula was but also the publics ignorance about what can define a Disney film. Everyone thinks Anastasia is one even though it clearly opens with the 20th Century Fox logo because it seems so much like every other Disney animated film released 7 years before it (The same goes for An American Tale which brought back the animated musical formula long before The Little Mermaid). This sad set of expectations I think is the reason why the Disney animated films from this decade have done so poorly. This decade, with films like Atlantis, The Emperor's New Groove, Treasure Planet, Lilo and Stitch Disney has tried to brake the formula both visually and themeatically, but because these are not fluffy song filled pieces the public just dismisses them without taking the time to think that an animated film could be anything it wanted to. The films themselves may not be perfect (and yes at least Lilo was a hit, more so than Hercules, Mulan, Tarzan, Hunchback because the public love the idea of an "atypical" Disney character) but they were at least something different. The same is true for Titan A.E., which confused the public because it didn't look like a "typical" animated movie.

And yes the success for Disney animated films in the 90s caused other companies to attempt to duplicate the success with their own garbage animated flicks. And because they were similar in look they are also confused as Disney films (which I'm sure the marketing departments from these companies didn't mind).

Flanger-Hanger wrote: Personally I get more satisfaction out of listening to these films soundtracks more than I do watching these (the 1990s) movies. And even then there are still songs from other Disney movies which I enjoy much more.

I'm not quite sure I can agree. There're quite a few films from the 90's I don't like, and their soundtracks rarely make up for it. Both Hunchback and Pocahontas are somewhat bland musically, to me. As for the "Fab Four," I know there are moments besides music that I watch them, though good music's always a plus for me ("Poor Unfortunate Souls" is easily the greatest example of music, story and entertainment wrapped in one). Personally, I don't think the films following Aladdin utilize music that well. The moments aren't nearly as "magical" and simply seem like an interlude from the story so Disney can show the parents what CD they'll be buying come Christmas.

I do agree that the repetition tied Disney to a formula, but they really only have themselves to blame for that. So desperate to recreate the financial success of TLK, they gave up all sense of originality. The huge gap between Pocahontas, Hunchback and Hercules from their source material clearly evidences their reliance on formula (the last of which I can excuse, simply because I love Hercules too much).

questions for Disney's Divinity:

You wrote

I do agree that the repetition tied Disney to a formula, but they really only have themselves to blame for that. So desperate to recreate the financial success of TLK, they gave up all sense of originality.

Do you know this for a fact ('so desperate'etc.) or do you just assume this? It may be good to remember that most of the films you mentioned were already in production when TLK became such a smash hit at the box office.
Will you also be so kind to describe this 'formula' to me? For I think that the three films succeeding TLK do not resemble the 1994 hit.

The huge gap between Pocahontas, Hunchback and Hercules from their source material clearly evidences their reliance on formula (the last of which I can excuse, simply because I love Hercules too much).

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Great! Just as I like Pocahontas and HOND despite their so-called reliance on formula!

It's merely my assumption, but if theres is a DAC that may have influenced succeeding films not always in a good way it must be Aladdin. It's in that movie that introduced anaochronistic gags and a MTV-kind of humour that did not work in movies like Hunchback and Mulan.

BelleGirl wrote: Do you know this for a fact ('so desperate'etc.) or do you just assume this? It may be good to remember that most of the films you mentioned were already in production when TLK became such a smash hit at the box office.

Yes, they were already in production, but it's easily possible for the marketing campaign to be affected by previous efforts.

Will you also be so kind to describe this 'formula' to me? For I think that the three films succeeding TLK do not resemble the 1994 hit.

I didn't say the formula came from TLK, but from the Fab Four in general. Going along with my response to the first quote, the formula is, I would say, more caused by TLM, B&tB and Aladdin than TLK (films which had mostly received praise and would affect Disney's outlook on what seemed to get good reviews). The two worlds theme, the comedy you mentioned, the uncompromising fathers and absent mothers, the attempt for an "epic" feel, an "I Want" song, a villain song (which had rarely been present until TLM and onward), the moment of failure (Ariel gives up the sea; Aladdin ends up leading the lamp to Jafar; Belle accidentally causes the Mob; Pocahontas unintentionally creates war through her interaction with Smith; Quasimodo betrays Frollo by going to the Festival; Hercules is let down by Megara's deal with Hades), a "time limit" ending for urgency, etc. etc. etc. Yes, there are exceptions, but very few. Also, it is an assumption, but that doesn't devalue the possibility. I mean, honestly, would Disney ever admit to it?

Great! Just as I like Pocahontas and HOND despite their so-called reliance on formula!

The only reason I have a dislike for them is that, with Hercules, it can be overlooked because that film is primarily a comedy anyway. Pocahontas and HoND attempt to be "epic" and "classic," but seem nothing more than a repeat of what's already been done. Also, I would like to point out that I only mentioned those two because, to me, they're the greatest offenders out of the 90s films. And I never said you couldn't like them, just that I don't (and I was listing reasons why).

Sorry if I took your post as somewhat hostile.

Don't forget to add songs for the sake of having songs, even if they don't move the plot (especially "A Guy Like You" in Hunchback) and mandatory secondary characters capable of being marketable in terms of merchandise and preforming of fart jokes (once again the gargoyles in Hunchback) to th list Disney Divinity added above. It's ridiculous not to admit there was some kind of formula to the Disney animated films of the 90s. They were forced to be released every year and make money like any other kind of movie. This is when Disney animated films stopped becoming something special.

Here's my list, although I know a lot of my other Disney fan friends disagree with my choices

10) The Black Cauldron
9) Beauty And The Beast (I really love the music and the animation, but Belle's character can annoy me once in a while for some reason)
Bambi (I love the artwork and animation, but the songs are really forgettable and the story can drag to me)
7) Mulan
6) The Lion King (just very overrated in my opinion)
5) Aladdin
4) Oliver And Company
3) The Fox And The Hound
2) Pocahontas
1) Home On The Range

Maybe I'm just an old fashioned guy, but I prefer most of the Disney films from Walt's era compared to the early 80s and beyond.

1. Sleeping Beauty
2. The Hunchback of Notre' Dame
3. Make Mine Music
4. Melody Time
5. Cinderella
6. The Black Cauldron
7. The Little Mermaid
8. The Fox and the Hound
9. Robin Hood
10. The Rescuers

..... 37. The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh
38. Atlantis: The Lost Empire
39. Chicken Little
40. Make Mine Music
41. Melody Time
42. The Three Caballeros
43. The Black Cauldron
44. Home on the Range
45. Sleeping Beauty
46. Saludos Amigos

I've been watching a lot of Disney movies this past month and my bottom ten list has changed.

I'm gonna ignore these rankings because, well because I can.

41. The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad
42. The Three Caballeros
43. Melody Time
44. Fun and Fancy Free
45. Make Mine Music
46. Saludos Amigos

Now the next lowest ten:

31. The Emperor's New Groove: I really hate David Spade's voice. I didn't use to when I was younger, but as I've grown I've come to hate it so watching TENG is becoming unbearable to me. It doesn't help that I don't like Pacha or Kuzco so the whole movie I'm rooting for the villain.

32. Peter Pan: Boring and Unlikeable. That pretty much sums the movie up right there.

33. The Black Cauldron: This movie, like The Emperor's New Groove and The Jungle Book, gets worse and worse every time I watch it. The story is just so "blah". Same with the characters and it's animated in a way that hurts my eyes sometimes.

34. The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh: This movie is great until Tigger comes in. I just hate that tiger so much and after "Winnie the Pooh and the Honey Tree" he pretty much dominates the movie. Also, there is a severe lack of Eeyore here.

35. Chicken Little: The big problem I have with Chicken Little is that the interesting characters aren't on screen enough. And it's climax is ridiculously unbelievable and childish. The big talking heads with the mean voices... please... It's pretty funny sometimes and I think what the "sky" turned out to be is ingenious, but overall I'm just not that excited by the movie. It's too "middle of the road" for me.

36. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs: It bores me to tears sometimes. The characters (with the noteworthy exception of Snow White and her Prince) are interesting to watch, but the story they're in is so boring that I just don't want to watch them. And then there is that headache inducing voice... *shudder*

37. Treasure Planet: I really can't pin-point exactly what I don't like about this movie. I just know that when I bought the DVD a few days ago and watched it for the first time since 2004, I found myself hating it more than I remembered.

38. Robin Hood: It's just too episodic. Feels almost like I'm watching one of those "three incredible tales" DTV sequels. Robin is an interesting bloke but I don't find myself caring about him or his merry gang of thieves. I do really like Sir Hiss, but probably because he reminds me of one of my favorite villains of all time; Kaa.

39. Alice in Wonderland: This movie suffers from the same major problem as Brother Bear; no likable characters. Tweedledum and Tweedledee make me contemplate suicide. The Mad Hatter, March Hare, Caterpillar and Queen of Hearts get old really fast. The Cheshire Cat could turn even the biggest cat lover to dogs and Alice is just unbearably dumb most of the time. The one redeeming factor that makes Alice rank above Bear is that Walrus and Clam story. I really enjoy that.

40. Brother Bear - I find not a single character in this movie the least bit likable; it's just one annoying one after the next. Watching it is like taking nails to a chalkboard.