DVDizzy Forum

reyquila wrote:Anyway, when you read this: http://www.wdwinfo.com/disney-gay-days.htm your eyebrows raise a little.

Thanks for sharing that. I like his viewpoint. I laughed out loud at this line, though -

Pete Werner wrote:I can’t help but think of, and feel sorry for – the unsuspecting family who saved for years for a once in a lifetime trip – only to arrive and find that Disney had in fact, been invaded by he-women and shaved down muscle boys.

And this got an "amen" from me:

Pete Werner wrote:If “Gay Day” at the Magic Kingdom was a hard ticket event like the Night of Joy, sign me up. But it’s not – it’s far from it. Trust me, if a religious group organized 100,000 Christians to go and ‘make yourself known’ in the Magic Kingdom one day a year – and began rubbing their lifestyles in the faces of visitors by preaching to them as they tried to ride Space Mountain – plenty of people would be up in arms.

I see someone's up to starting issues again.

goofystitch wrote:It bothers me when I see any form of PDA in the Disney parks.

"I saw these old couples who kept showing public displays of affection, and it was gross!" - Evan.

An inside joke that took place in Castaway Key; the oldest person was in his early 40's. No one was really that old.

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this. I don't mind what other people do, but my political stances are mixed. Who gets married to ensure health benefits for someone else, PapiBear?

Prudence wrote:Who gets married to ensure health benefits for someone else, PapiBear?

Pretty much nobody, but it is a talking point that's brought up every so often in regards to gay marriage. Anyway, my remark was in response to Disney Duster's comment about gay couples getting married but then never having sex anymore after that. A ludicrous notion, to be sure, but it begs the question of "why does anyone get married?" And people don't necessarily get married just for various legal reasons like ensuring health benefits for a spouse and so forth. Sure, there's love, and one of the expressions of romantic love is sexual love.

The reasons people marry vary widely, but usually include one or more of the following: the public declaration of love; the formation of a family unit; legitimizing sexual relations; legal, social and economic stability; and procreation and the education and nurturing of children.

Personally, I don't have a problem with gay couples being legally recognized as married couples, whatever the reasons. Call it marriage, call it civil unions, whatever - if gay couples want the same equal protection under the law that straight couples enjoy, I think that's fair and equitable, insofar as secular law is concerned. Sure, that's fine, let them be legally recognized in the same manner as heterosexual married couples. I've no problem with that if that's what the secular legal machine decides is OK. However, insofar as God's law is concerned, that's an entirely other matter, and God's law and secular law shouldn't be confused. Separation of church and state, right? I'm fine with that.

Now, beyond that, I think human beings should follow God's law rather than man's law, as I find God to be a higher authority than man regarding all things, but that's a different issue entirely. So if gays want to be recognized as married couples by man's law, it's really no skin off my nose if they are.

Only thing is, in both California and Florida, gay marriage isn't legal (yet). So this big announcement is just Disney recognizing a money opportunity and saying "sure, gay couples, we'll take your money and give you your fantasy wedding..... not that it'll be legal, though...."

PapiBear wrote:Secular legality has no bearing whatsoever on whether something is a sin in God's eyes or not. Gluttony, greed, lust, wrath, sloth, envy and pride are all perfectly legal - does that mean they're not sins? Because man's law says so?

No, I meant that because it is not a holy marriage, it isn't a sin. As in, they are married in their hearts, and they had a ceremony to get bound to one another, but it's not official, they didn't ask God to bless them or whatever a happens at a marriage in a church with a preist that makes it different from a legal one.

PapiBear wrote:Also, extremely few marriages are based on brotherly, Platonic love. How many couples - gay or straight - do you know, who remain chaste during their entire lives? What is the purpose of marriage? To ensure health benefits for someone else? If so, that's a flimsy reason to get married.

No, I'm talking about couples who get married because they are romantically in love, they aren't just friends who have sex. You don't have to have sex to express romantic love. So they would get married to feel like they are specially bound together. If one can't say, "we are legally married" to the other when the partner does some infedelity, at least they can say, "remember that big ceremony where we pledged we would love one another and only each other?"

Don't worry about it Disney Duster. PapiBear will start an argument over anything. Thanks for always keeping your posts classy unlike some people around here!

Doesn't look like this thread has gotten problematic yet, but since a debate of sorts has popped up, let me just take the chance to remind everyone to proceed with civility, avoiding personal attacks and heated language. I started the thread with some hesitation but thought it was pretty big news from Disney and something others would want to know about. Let's just not take it down a path towards locking. Thanks.

-Aaron

Disney Duster wrote:

PapiBear wrote:Secular legality has no bearing whatsoever on whether something is a sin in God's eyes or not. Gluttony, greed, lust, wrath, sloth, envy and pride are all perfectly legal - does that mean they're not sins? Because man's law says so?

No, I meant that because it is not a holy marriage, it isn't a sin.

Yeah, I know that's what you said, and what you meant. That's why I'm laughing. It appears that your understanding of sin and of holiness are tremendously lacking.

Let's put it this way - your notion that a marriage that isn't performed by a church official isn't sinful because of that, is akin to stating that a murder that isn't committed within sight of a policeman isn't a crime. Sorry, but, uh, it doesn't work that way. A sin is a sin just like a crime is a crime. You don't get to pick and choose which is and which isn't just because it suits you.

Disney Duster wrote:As in, they are married in their hearts, and they had a ceremony to get bound to one another, but it's not official, they didn't ask God to bless them or whatever a happens at a marriage in a church with a preist that makes it different from a legal one.

Wow. Your understanding of God's law is, again, tremendously lacking.

Disney Duster wrote:

PapiBear wrote:Also, extremely few marriages are based on brotherly, Platonic love. How many couples - gay or straight - do you know, who remain chaste during their entire lives? What is the purpose of marriage? To ensure health benefits for someone else? If so, that's a flimsy reason to get married.

No, I'm talking about couples who get married because they are romantically in love, they aren't just friends who have sex. You don't have to have sex to express romantic love. So they would get married to feel like they are specially bound together. If one can't say, "we are legally married" to the other when the partner does some infedelity, at least they can say, "remember that big ceremony where we pledged we would love one another and only each other?"

So, again, what is the purpose of marriage? Any marriage?

Poody wrote:Thanks for always keeping your posts classy

Wow, thank you! No one ever said I had class before.

PapiBear wrote:It appears that your understanding of sin and of holiness are tremendously lacking. Let's put it this way - your notion that a marriage that isn't performed by a church official isn't sinful because of that, is akin to stating that a murder that isn't committed within sight of a policeman isn't a crime. Sorry, but, uh, it doesn't work that way. A sin is a sin just like a crime is a crime. You don't get to pick and choose which is and which isn't just because it suits you.

I think it's too different from that, because you don't need the policeman to commit the crime. But you need the preist or minister to have the holy matrimony.

Disney Duster wrote:As in, they are married in their hearts, and they had a ceremony to get bound to one another, but it's not official, they didn't ask God to bless them or whatever a happens at a marriage in a church with a preist that makes it different from a legal one.

PapiBear wrote:Wow. Your understanding of God's law is, again, tremendously lacking.

Well, do you think you perfectly understand everything in the Bible and know exactly what God wants? I personally find the Bible a little confusing, and I think if we need to obey certain rules they should be a little more clear. The golden rule is to love thy neighbor as thyself. Lots of gay men would love to be kissed by a man, so when they kiss a man they are still treating their neighbor like they would want to be treated.

See, it's complicated!

Anyway, I'll admit you are right I don't know exactly what God wants. But if we were to follow "do not lie with a man as you do with a women", that could be taken literally as in don't lie down in a bed like you would with a women, that even means that if you were a man's roomate you couldn't share the same bed! Or we could take lie to mean get sexual with them in which case romantic love is fine without sexual relations. And then it's hard to determine exactly what is sexual...we still are debating what makes a man a virgin in another thread.

I'm saying...it's not all clear.

Disney Duster wrote:

PapiBear wrote:Also, extremely few marriages are based on brotherly, Platonic love. How many couples - gay or straight - do you know, who remain chaste during their entire lives? What is the purpose of marriage? To ensure health benefits for someone else? If so, that's a flimsy reason to get married.

No, I'm talking about couples who get married because they are romantically in love, they aren't just friends who have sex. You don't have to have sex to express romantic love. So they would get married to feel like they are specially bound together. If one can't say, "we are legally married" to the other when the partner does some infedelity, at least they can say, "remember that big ceremony where we pledged we would love one another and only each other?"

PapiBear wrote:So, again, what is the purpose of marriage? Any marriage?

I'll quote myself:

So they would get married to feel like they are specially bound together. If one can't say, "we are legally married" to the other when the partner does some infedelity, at least they can say, "remember that big ceremony where we pledged we would love one another and only each other?

Are you saying that's not enough of a purpose?

Disney Duster wrote:

PapiBear wrote:It appears that your understanding of sin and of holiness are tremendously lacking. Let's put it this way - your notion that a marriage that isn't performed by a church official isn't sinful because of that, is akin to stating that a murder that isn't committed within sight of a policeman isn't a crime. Sorry, but, uh, it doesn't work that way. A sin is a sin just like a crime is a crime. You don't get to pick and choose which is and which isn't just because it suits you.

I think it's too different from that, because you don't need the policeman to commit the crime. But you need the preist or minister to have the holy matrimony.

You're missing the point. Sure, you don't need a policeman to commit a crime. But if the policeman isn't there, does that make murder any less of a crime? No, of course not. In the same manner, you don't need a priest, a minister, or a church to commit a sin. A sin is just as much a sin whether or not there's a priest, a minister, or a church around to witness it. A sin isn't a sin because a priest or minister says so, or because a church says so. It's a sin because God says so. You're either obeying God or you're not obeying God; there's no gray area, no two ways around it.

Disney Duster wrote:

PapiBear wrote:Wow. Your understanding of God's law is, again, tremendously lacking.

Well, do you think you perfectly understand everything in the Bible and know exactly what God wants?

Did I say I did? No. But that doesn't mean that I understand absolutely nothing, either.

Disney Duster wrote:I personally find the Bible a little confusing, and I think if we need to obey certain rules they should be a little more clear.

"They" who? Do you consider the Bible only to be a big rulebook?

Disney Duster wrote:Anyway, I'll admit you are right I don't know exactly what God wants. But if we were to follow "do not lie with a man as you do with a women", that could be taken literally as in don't lie down in a bed like you would with a women, that even means that if you were a man's roomate you couldn't share the same bed! Or we could take lie to mean get sexual with them in which case romantic love is fine without sexual relations. And then it's hard to determine exactly what is sexual...we still are debating what makes a man a virgin in another thread.

I'm saying...it's not all clear.

Do you pray? Do you regularly study the word of God? Do you have a church family? You don't have to continually wander about in misunderstanding. God has the answers for you, if you're open to listening to Him. But you have to ask Him and reach out to Him in order to obtain that understanding.

Disney Duster wrote:

PapiBear wrote:So, again, what is the purpose of marriage? Any marriage?

I'll quote myself:

So they would get married to feel like they are specially bound together. If one can't say, "we are legally married" to the other when the partner does some infedelity, at least they can say, "remember that big ceremony where we pledged we would love one another and only each other?

Are you saying that's not enough of a purpose?

It doesn't really answer my question. You're saying that people get married just so they can feel specially bound together and in case of infidelity, to remind each other of a ceremony they participated in? So, then, marriage is just a thing to do to make people feel differently than they would if they didn't do it? So, where does legality come into this, if the only reason for marriage is emotion? What's the purpose of marriage? Does marriage even have a purpose? What's the point of it? Feeling good and then using that feel-good action to make the other partner feel guilty if they have sex with someone else? How long is marriage supposed to last? Until you get bored with your partner? Until you change your mind? Until one or the other cheats?

Let's take your example above - one partner cheats, and the other partner at least (?) can say "remember that big ceremony where we pledged we would love one another and only each other?". What then? The cheating partner says, "yeah, I remember it - what's your point?"

What's gay marriage grounded in? The same thing that 50% of heterosexual marriages are grounded in? That's how many marriages fail every year. Some of the gay marriages that have been performed legally have already failed. What does that say about marriage?

Is marriage man's idea or God's idea?

PapiBear wrote:You're missing the point. Sure, you don't need a policeman to commit a crime. But if the policeman isn't there, does that make murder any less of a crime? No, of course not. In the same manner, you don't need a priest, a minister, or a church to commit a sin. A sin is just as much a sin whether or not there's a priest, a minister, or a church around to witness it. A sin isn't a sin because a priest or minister says so, or because a church says so. It's a sin because God says so. You're either obeying God or you're not obeying God; there's no gray area, no two ways around it.

I understand that, I really do, but I think you missed my own point. A preist or minister needs to perform a marriage and ask God to bless the couple and whatever else he's there for so the marriage is holy, right? And these fairy tale weddings for gay couples won't have a minster, will they? If they do have a minister...I guess there is some religion that minister is from that lets people of the same sex be married. If not, then I don't see how that marriage is a sin because it is not attempting to be holy. You have a cake, you have a tux, you have people vowing their love to each other, and that's a sin?

Disney Duster wrote:

PapiBear wrote:Wow. Your understanding of God's law is, again, tremendously lacking.

Well, do you think you perfectly understand everything in the Bible and know exactly what God wants?

PapiBear wrote:Did I say I did? No. But that doesn't mean that I understand absolutely nothing, either.

But you did laugh at me because I didn't know everything about God's law, so I was saying you shouldn't laugh at me because you don't either. Unless you consider what God wants and what God's law is to be different.

Disney Duster wrote:I personally find the Bible a little confusing, and I think if we need to obey certain rules they should be a little more clear.

PapiBear wrote:"They" who? Do you consider the Bible only to be a big rulebook?

"They" as in the rules. That sentence could have read: "I personally find the bible confusing, and I think if we need to obey certain rules the rules should be a little more clear."

As for the next question, no, I see the Bible as rules and guidelines to follow and stories to teach us more about what to do in certain situations, as well as let us know the power of God, the love of God, what will come next in the apocolypse, etc.

PapiBear wrote:Do you pray? Do you regularly study the word of God? Do you have a church family? You don't have to continually wander about in misunderstanding. God has the answers for you, if you're open to listening to Him. But you have to ask Him and reach out to Him in order to obtain that understanding.

Occasionally I pray. I do not study the word of God regularly, but I do analyze it from time to time to try and figure out what he's saying and what he wants people to do. I attend church when my family goes and I don't have something else I need to do, usually for school, I don't know if that means I have a church family or not. As for asking God to help me understand, I prayed for that and never really got any clear signs I was being helped. Only as I have grown up do I feel I am smarter about religion and things as a whole.

PapiBear wrote:It doesn't really answer my question. You're saying that people get married just so they can feel specially bound together and in case of infidelity, to remind each other of a ceremony they participated in?

Well I don't know everything about marriage, but I know why I would want to get married, and that would be because I only want to be with one person romantically for the rest of my life, and announce it in front of people and make it somehow official with a big ceremony that makes it feel like something to be taken seriously so my partner would not feel okay about being with or loving another person the way they are and do with me.

PapiBear wrote:So, then, marriage is just a thing to do to make people feel differently than they would if they didn't do it?

Well, I know some people don't need to get married to know they will be with someone until they die, but the marriage makes it more of a commitment.

PapiBear wrote:So, where does legality come into this, if the only reason for marriage is emotion?

Why do you care so much about the legal part? I think vowing to love your partner forever is more important than what health benefits you get!

PapiBear wrote:What's the purpose of marriage? Does marriage even have a purpose? What's the point of it? Feeling good and then using that feel-good action to make the other partner feel guilty if they have sex with someone else?

Well, you should feel guilty if you cheat on someone you love, but that should happen without the marriage. The marriage just hightens that. It's a bigger deal. Why is it a bigger deal? That question I can't answer, but I think it has something to do with announcing inwords in front of people in a big binding ceremony to that person that you won't cheat on them, and you'll only love them that way.

PapiBear wrote: How long is marriage supposed to last? Until you get bored with your partner? Until you change your mind? Until one or the other cheats?

It's supposed to last until death do you part, right? Though the Catholic Church at least allows some divorces in certain cases, but I can't name all the acceptable reasons for a marriage to end. My father was granted a divorce once when his wife entered a cult and then it became dangerous for their child.

PapiBear wrote:Let's take your example above - one partner cheats, and the other partner at least (?) can say "remember that big ceremony where we pledged we would love one another and only each other?". What then? The cheating partner says, "yeah, I remember it - what's your point?"

Well, then that person doesn't care about the marriage and shouldn't have gotten married. Is there something marriage does that I don't know about that even people who don't care about the marriage can't escape?

PapiBear wrote:What's gay marriage grounded in? The same thing that 50% of heterosexual marriages are grounded in? That's how many marriages fail every year. Some of the gay marriages that have been performed legally have already failed. What does that say about marriage?

Gay marriage is hopefully grounded in love, but not all marriages are, so I can't tell you what every gay married couple grounded their marriage in. Anyway, that says that marriage won't work unless the people make it work. Have I discovered what you've been dying to tell me? That marriage really doesn't matter at all? Because marriage matters to me.

PapiBear wrote:Is marriage man's idea or God's idea?

I don't know. I don't know when marriage started. Did it start in Judaism?

Marriage started with Adam and Eve.

PapiBear and Disney Duster, neither of you are going to come to convince the other of anything.