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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:53 am
by DefyGravity
It's just unfortunate that Disney used to give their films the great treatment that they deserve where as now it's just a couple of quick things slapped together.
I don't think it's really a matter of Disney "slapping things together," as I imagine that some of the games - no matter how lame they might be - do take some time to animate and put together. It's just they're gearing the extras moreso towards kids, which I don't understand.

Forgive me if I'm off in my logic here, but if the films are from the 80's or earlier, then the people who watched and enjoyed them when they first came out are adults now. So, wouldn't that mean that majority of people wanting these sets are adults as opposed to children? I think a lot of kids would find films like Bambi too 'old-fashioned looking.' Yet the disc is littered with completely insipid games no one over the age of six would appreciate. At least that one was spared the Raven and her tonedeaf Disney pals sing-along crap. Sorry about the rant there, but back to my original point. I don't think they're slapping them together in a hurry; I just think they're a bit misguided about who's actually interested in these sets.

At any rate, as long as TLM has a commentary track, some behind-the-scenes featurettes, deleted scenes, and a good quality transfer without any reanimated sequences, I'll be happy. Actually, I'd love to see something similar to the Storyboard Meetings track on the Bambi release. I can just ignore the other useless crap that will inevitably be on there.

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:15 am
by reyquila
Complaints, Complaints and Complaints !!! I bet the complainants have only ten or twelve movies in the shelf !!! Are you fans or detractors?? If you are a real fan, then buy the stuff. Dont want to buy it? Fine, don't buy it.

You guys sound a lot more like critiques, only lacking the knowledge. Let the people with the expertise do their job. They make packed the DVD and you decide if you want it or not.

Why arent you working as a Disney executive?? Thats the question to answer.

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:24 am
by magicalwands
reyquila wrote:Complaints, Complaints and Complaints !!! I bet the complainants have only ten or twelve movies in the shelf !!! Are you fans or detractors?? If you are a real fan, then buy the stuff. Dont want to buy it? Fine, don't buy it.

You guys sound a lot more like critiques, only lacking the knowledge. Let the people with the expertise do their job. They make packed the DVD and you decide if you want it or not.

Why arent you working as a Disney executive?? Thats the question to answer.
I just want my money's worth with bonus features. My dad was right, (many of you will disagree) when I bought Cinderella he was surprised it wasn't $5 because the movie was so old. If the movie is $5 then we should get $10 worth of bonus features!

It's not complaining, we're just telling what Disney could improve on.

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:55 am
by Disney-Fan
reyquila wrote:Complaints, Complaints and Complaints !!! I bet the complainants have only ten or twelve movies in the shelf !!! Are you fans or detractors?? If you are a real fan, then buy the stuff. Dont want to buy it? Fine, don't buy it.

You guys sound a lot more like critiques, only lacking the knowledge. Let the people with the expertise do their job. They make packed the DVD and you decide if you want it or not.
So lets set things straight... We're not supposed to complain because we're supposed to trust a few executive who want every penny squeezed out of us. Or is it because we're fans that we shouldn't complain? You do realize that if no one complains about the products offered, we might as well be looking at the first single-disc Platinum release by 2007 (hey, it's happening here and in Europe). Oh yeah, makes perfect sence to just shut up and do nothing. :roll:

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:10 pm
by Pasta67
reyquila wrote:Complaints, Complaints and Complaints !!! I bet the complainants have only ten or twelve movies in the shelf !!! Are you fans or detractors?? If you are a real fan, then buy the stuff. Dont want to buy it? Fine, don't buy it.

You guys sound a lot more like critiques, only lacking the knowledge. Let the people with the expertise do their job. They make packed the DVD and you decide if you want it or not.
Fans are always going to give feedback on products whether it's positive or negative. Fans didn't like The Lion King's DVD because 80% of it was promotional crap disguised as behind-the-scenes material. Fans were bothered by the Cinderella DVD because almost half of the material had nothing to do with the making of the film, or the film itself. If the "people with the expertise" don't do a good job, it's up to the fans to tell them what they really want in a movie/DVD. Complaints are very different from opinions. We're not all "Di$ny sux fr no res0n!!!1!!"; we're just giving our opinions on how they can improve.

Anyway, DefyGravity has an excellent point; Disney puts effort into their DVDs, it's just that they're putting their effort into the wrong stuff. Most children today wouldn't be able to even sit through the original Bambi once without the good ol' ADD kicking in (I know I couldn't when I was little). The really old movies, like Fantasia, can be enjoyed by children today, but I think their main audience is the nostalgic people who grew up with those films. That's why some of these DVDs shouldn't be weighed down with so much fluff/music videos/games.

And yeah, we can be 99% sure that Raven's Under the Sea music video will appear on the PE, since it aired on Disney Channel already, but let's just hope that's all we see from her on this set.

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:01 pm
by Tascar
Pasta67 wrote:Anyway, DefyGravity has an excellent point; Disney puts effort into their DVDs, it's just that they're putting their effort into the wrong stuff. Most children today wouldn't be able to even sit through the original Bambi once without the good ol' ADD kicking in (I know I couldn't when I was little). The really old movies, like Fantasia, can be enjoyed by children today, but I think their main audience is the nostalgic people who grew up with those films. That's why some of these DVDs shouldn't be weighed down with so much fluff/music videos/games.
I agree with this assertion and in retrospect I think my previous post did implied otherwise. In no way am I saying that whoever put together these games and other things I complain about did zero work on it. My problem is that from my point of view, I don't see what a kid that is not interested in the behind-the-scenes background material gets out of any DVD other than the movie itself.

With all the video games out there for Ps2, X-Box, GameCube, PC, Mac, and other systems that are far better than those found on any DVD (let's admit it, the type of games that can be made on a DVD-video is highly limited), I don't see how kids would be intrigued. The read-along specials on the discs are pretty much useless considering how ebiquitous the book-equivalents of those are. For preteens and teens, I would certainly think that with Cristina Aguilera, Justin Timberlake, and all the other stars and musicians out there, Disney's Circle of Stars just seem like a circle of hacks in comparison. I don't see how the shallow nature specials on The Lion King DVD are even educational or interesting given all the much better specials out for free on PBS or on cable stations. Likewise, I don't see how the Cinderella stories special on the Cinderella DVD are going to be of interest to anyone.

I understand the sentiments that some posters here have expressed: that it is the movie that is important and not the special features. I cannot deny this and in fact I would have no problem with Disney making bare-bone DVDs in order to max out the bitrates, etc. However what does bug me is when Disney wastes disk space to put things that are honestly of little relation to the film and doesn't really appeal to anyone. If you are going to waste disk space, at least waste it with commentaries or relevant special features.

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:05 pm
by Tarzan.
2099net wrote:
azul017 wrote: Remember how grainy the trailer was for Aladdin, then when you saw the Platinum Edition the picture was perfect? The DVD trailer for the PE of TLM is grainy, yet it will look perfect on DVD. Now we just need the cover and the press release from Disney. :wink:
Well, it will probably be more like Bambi and Cinderella than Aladdin, because The Little Mermaid wasn't filmed on the CAPS system, Disney's digital animation process.
Can someone tell me which movie was the first to be filmed on the CAPS system, Disney's digital animation process and what are the characteristics of this process?

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:38 am
by Wonderlicious
Tarzan. wrote:Can someone tell me which movie was the first to be filmed on the CAPS system, Disney's digital animation process and what are the characteristics of this process?
The first movie made on the CAPS system was The Rescuers Down Under (though a little bit of The Little Mermaid was filmed in CAPS), and pretty much all hand-drawn pieces of Disney animation(minus some of the 90s TV shows and a few of the early DTV sequels) have used this process. Essentially, the process is the same. Most of the time, the backgrounds are hand painted and the moving images are hand drawn. However, whereas before, the cleaned up drawings were photocopied on to cells (or hand inked if you go back even further) and then painted, they are now scanned into a computer system and are painted there using a programme. The backgrounds are scanned in, too, and a computer camera shoots the animation.

Hope that helps you there! :thumb:

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:09 pm
by MikeyMouse
ichabod wrote:NO Netty is correct, Little Mermaid was made in the traditional fashion with painted cels in the traditional animation process.
Not only that, but THE LAST to be drawn, inked and painted entirely in the traditional way:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097757/trivia

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:53 pm
by The Little Merman
I have a great feeling about The Little Mermaid's disc. It seems be turning to the Aladdin-style with a fabulous transfer and a healthy balance of quality features and games for the young'ns..

*tlm

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:35 pm
by Tarzan.
Wonderlicious wrote:
Tarzan. wrote:Can someone tell me which movie was the first to be filmed on the CAPS system, Disney's digital animation process and what are the characteristics of this process?
The first movie made on the CAPS system was The Rescuers Down Under (though a little bit of The Little Mermaid was filmed in CAPS), and pretty much all hand-drawn pieces of Disney animation(minus some of the 90s TV shows and a few of the early DTV sequels) have used this process. Essentially, the process is the same. Most of the time, the backgrounds are hand painted and the moving images are hand drawn. However, whereas before, the cleaned up drawings were photocopied on to cells (or hand inked if you go back even further) and then painted, they are now scanned into a computer system and are painted there using a programme. The backgrounds are scanned in, too, and a computer camera shoots the animation.

Hope that helps you there! :thumb:
Thanks a lot!! Now I understand why there's a big difference between TLM and BATB, but I just have one last question, the backgrounds are hand painted or Disney makes them on computer?

Imsomniac dethi ramblings AKA don't read

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:01 am
by deathie mouse
Tarzan, some might be hand painted and some might be digitally created, as everything done these days in movies in the DEEGEETAHL age :-P


one aspect/difference of the CAPS i wanna emphasise is its digital nature.

If the film is scanned.rendered.composited in the CAPS, the master is the digital CAPS file.

On conventional animation the "master" is an exposed piece of film negative. Exposed film is an "analogue" (a copy) that tries to imitate the "analogue" image that the lens creates from the original art, and each film copy element exposed is an "analogue" of the preceeding element. Due to the way films are viewed duplicated etc this makes for potential different results or degradations (or lack thereof). The image that a lens creates, is also an "analogue" (a copy) of the original image in front of it, since it's photons are modified by the lens :-P , before it reaches the negative. An analogue can be very similar to the original but it's degraded, however minutely.

you can read it again if you like ;)

Lets look at two differeing ways of watching animation


Conventional filmed animation:

handmade art -> camera lens -> (35mm film negative) -> film interpositive -> film internegative -> film print -> projector lens and vibrations -> eye

CAPS:

handmade art -> (high resolution optics/scan* + digitally created art digital file)-DVI fixed pixel direct view display -> eye

( ) means master
a -> indicates an analog step (analog copying/degradation)
a - indicates a digital step or digital copying/cloning/transmision of data with no data degradation (it's the same data)



So what's different? the degradation that analog creates by trying to make a copy (an analogue) that looks like the original

As you can see, the CAPS till it's transfered to an analog step it remains the original data.

For example two aplications of CAPS.
First lets imagine an IMAX film done super right on film derived from CAPS:

handmade art -> (high resolution optics/scan + digitally created art digital file)-laser render onto IMAX film print -> projector lens and vibrations -> eye

you just bypassed several film steps and the camera lens with their increased grain and color changes and sharpness degradation. The IMAX film step being 40 x 70 mm it's of a very high resolution so most of the digital master quality is preserved and the big format minimizes projector lens/vibration losses. You could say the IMAX print becomes the original film negative as if like it was photographed from the original art. in a sense.

Or CAPS to DVD:

handmade art -> (high resolution optics/scan + digitally created art digital file)-mathematical data downrez to digital NTSC-compressed digital DVD-DVI fixed pixel direct view display -> eye

Apart from the downrezing of the data (less detail) and compression artifacts for DVD, your DVI display would be showing you THE master. Not a copy (analogue = tries to look like) of the master but the master. Cus its made of data from the digital file.

now compare with a possible non CAPS DVD

handmade art -> camera lens -> (film negative) -> film interpositive -> film internegative -> film print ->high resolution optics/scan digital file-mathematical data downrez to digital NTSC-compressed digital DVD-DVI fixed pixel direct view display -> eye

what do you get? A copy of a copy of a copy of an analogue master (that was created tru a normal camera lens)

Not THE master.

What if you did the filmed animation DVD the best way?

Like what about Snow White?:

handmade art -> camera lens -> (film negative) -> high resolution optics/scan digital file-mathematical data downrez to digital NTSC-compressed digital DVD-DVI fixed pixel direct view display -> eye


so here you're watching the master (in this case the film negative) again. Compared to the CAPS master, it's a master that has negative film grain and emulsion/camera lens color changes/sharpness losses from the original art.

NOW if the film negative step and the camera optics have enough quality (high resolution fine grain emulsion of suficient size negative area and excellent lens) and you know the sharpness losses and the color distortions of the emulsion, you can digitaly compensate for those also. (And of course Snow White and most of Disney films were filmed in b/w Technicolor so theoreticaly you can digitally reconstruct the original color from the b/w negatives if you know what you're doing :-P)

So in the end, the end :-P result depends on the original film or the CAPS data file quality and the copying steps in between it (And how light is emitted in the screen in front of your eyes to0 :-p)

CAPS being digital in it's nature makes the distribution of the data before it reaches your eyes have a better chance of arriving unchanged...

Brother Bear color banding? la la la

So going back to this thread topic :-P if they take The Little Mermaids original negative and do a high resolution scan and do it right i'm sure it'll look mighty fine, don;t worry if its 35mm film (12mm x 21mm) or CAPS sourced. (Or both! :-P) ok? :)


*ok sharp eyed thinkers might say buuuut dethi dont the scanner has a lens (or something) optics and a scanner sensor too and wouldnt the image that goes trought them have the equivalent of an analogue (a copy) of the original art?
brownie!

yes but a CAPS scan is more like what you get when you make a photocopy of a typewritten 8 x 10 sheet of paper, while the film version is what you'd get if you photograph the 8 x 10 typewritten sheet with your 35mm film camera.

(Actually that would be if you shot your movie in VistaVision! (24 x 36mm). 35mm theatrical movies are shot in an even smaller format than 35mm still photos in what's called the 35mm half-frame format (Minox anyone) for photography (having just a 18 x 24mm maximum aperture) :-P)

So itsa Large Format vs 35mm kinda thing image adquisition kinda thing you know?
In a way.
So the CAPS scan sensor created image it's like.. mm.. well.. like
THE master, man! :-p

:twisted:

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:53 pm
by Evil Genie Jafar
This thought just came to my mind:

TLM WILL definitley have a Gift Set.

Why? Bambi didn't have one, Cinderella did..... and if LatT doesn't either, TLM will sure have one. Because of the popularity of the film, Disney knows very well they can make more profit out this way... and since the rest of the current PEs are popular, but not beloved in the same way, my guess is that they won't be making anymore, so this will be the last chance for one.

PS

The only reason I think Cinderella got a Gift Set is because the story is so well known.

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:58 pm
by Lucylover1986
Yeah it most likely will. Every October PE release except for Snow White had one so there's a 99.9% chance TLM will have one too. I'm getting it for sure!

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:58 pm
by stitcharielbeast
rodis wrote:
ichabod wrote:NO Netty is correct, Little Mermaid was made in the traditional fashion with painted cels in the traditional animation process.

The Rescuers Down Under was the first film to use the CAPS system.
I guess I wasn't clear. As a devoted TLM fan for years, I know it was the last tradionally hand painted film. I was disagreeing that it looked more like Bambi than Aladdin. Regardless of how it was made, it still looks more Aladdin to me than Bambi. Maybe something about the vibrant colors and the similiar looking characters.
you misunderstood what Netty said, he meant it would look more like Bambi and the pre-renaissance features quality-wise not art-wise.

in terms of TLM's art, it is part of the renaissance era (Aladdin, Lion king, Beauty and the Beast)

and just so people know: TLM is part-CAPS. there are some scenes that was used to "test" the system, one of them is the scene where Ariel runs down the stairs of the castle to meet Eric just to find out he's getting hitched to Vanessa.

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:00 am
by Aladdin from Agrabah
stitcharielbeast wrote:Ariel runs down the stairs of the castle to meet Eric just to find out he's getting hitched to Vanessa.
It has nothing to do with the topic, but I just LOVE Vanessa! The character, the clothes-except the ridiculous wedding gown-the gorgeous shell, the hair, the eyes, the lips, Jodi Benson's voice of course, and the fact that she's Ursula's alter ego!! I would love to see her on the cover, which is impossible because she known as Ursula. But If they want it, they could do sthing about it; they could make her ghost-like, like she's coming out of Ursula, or they could even use her as a reflection in the mirror, or like a seperate character standing next to Ursula, side by side! Or they could just use her on the backcover, in a fine illustration, where she sings with Ariel's voice, and Eric is watching from his castle.
Anyway, I think she's an important character, because in H.C.Andersen's original tale, there is a beautiful young woman-not the witch- who steals the prince's heart because he thinks she's the one that saved him. And I think that was what the Disney people tried to transfer from the original tale by the creation of Vanessa. Anyone knows who Vanessa's supervising animator is?

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:09 am
by Disney-Fan
Vanessa is a wicked alter-villian! I love her voice, and her song is spine-chilling. And that laugh... Talk about villianeous! 8)

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:13 pm
by Aladdin from Agrabah
DisneyFan 2000 wrote:Vanessa is a wicked alter-villian! I love her voice, and her song is spine-chilling. And that laugh... Talk about villianeous! 8)
Oh, she soooo great!!! I'd like to see her as an octopus-girl! She could be sthing like Ursula's daughter!

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:46 pm
by VanessaFan
Aladdin from Agrabah wrote:
stitcharielbeast wrote:Ariel runs down the stairs of the castle to meet Eric just to find out he's getting hitched to Vanessa.
It has nothing to do with the topic, but I just LOVE Vanessa! The character, the clothes-except the ridiculous wedding gown-the gorgeous shell, the hair, the eyes, the lips, Jodi Benson's voice of course, and the fact that she's Ursula's alter ego!! I would love to see her on the cover, which is impossible because she known as Ursula. But If they want it, they could do sthing about it; they could make her ghost-like, like she's coming out of Ursula, or they could even use her as a reflection in the mirror, or like a seperate character standing next to Ursula, side by side! Or they could just use her on the backcover, in a fine illustration, where she sings with Ariel's voice, and Eric is watching from his castle.
Anyway, I think she's an important character, because in H.C.Andersen's original tale, there is a beautiful young woman-not the witch- who steals the prince's heart because he thinks she's the one that saved him. And I think that was what the Disney people tried to transfer from the original tale by the creation of Vanessa. Anyone knows who Vanessa's supervising animator is?
Hey, I just love Vanessa as well! She's so beautilful! And so funny! :lol:
Chris Baily, Andreas Deja & Kathy Zielinski were all Supervising Animator for Vanessa in the Little Mermaid!

I cannot wait to hear the comments on Vanessa on the DVD! :D

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:07 pm
by lord-of-sith
Yeah, Vanessa is an wonderful counterpart to Ursula. It's very easy to believe that no one would buy that Ursula was Vanessa becuase they look so different. Jodi did a good job of making her voice sound like Ariel (as I suppose her actual voice is like) and yet still making it a different character.