DVDizzy Forum

Ernesto de la Cruz is still my favorite of the twist villains. The thing I appreciate about the writing of Coco is that everything is intertwined and there's no loose ends.

I have a theory about the story.I think each who the five clans will have some kind of leader figure. Like wise(or misguided) older chief.

I am thinking like Emperor in Mulan, The Sultan in Aladdin or Stefan and Huburt in Sleeping Beauty.

However i think the will be more serious than the Sultan and The Skleeoing Beauty Kings.

And i think it's likely at least one of the clan leaders is a matriarchal leader figure like Cersei Lannister.

I think Gothel fits well with the other classic villains, Im surprised Disney doesn't use her more in merch considering how much merch Tangled gets. Maybe she has the same problem as Hans in that many people feel she's a little "too" real and hits too close to home to many(being an abusive toxic parental figure instead of just another evil but fun muahaha! type villain) and Disney feels she would be a turn off to parents being included in their kids Tangled merch.

The problem with Hans is that he never should have been a villain in the first place, the film didn't really need one.

Gothel probably doesn’t get much merchandise because she’s not popular. I’d rather she had been a “real” villain along the lines of Frollo. Too bad we didn’t get that. It's like they tried to straddle the line between Frollo and Cruella, and the result is something that isn't successful in either vein.

Actually, I think Frozen is much more interesting because the stereotypical prince who’s supposed to save the day and fulfill all the princess’ dreams was the villain. I’m sure many people who love the film would agree. It’s sad a character with a cute design had a short-lived purpose though.

unprincess wrote:I think Gothel fits well with the other classic villains, Im surprised Disney doesn't use her more in merch considering how much merch Tangled gets. Maybe she has the same problem as Hans in that many people feel she's a little "too" real and hits too close to home to many(being an abusive toxic parental figure instead of just another evil but fun muahaha! type villain) and Disney feels she would be a turn off to parents being included in their kids Tangled merch.

The problem with Hans is that he never should have been a villain in the first place, the film didn't really need one.

Actually she gets more merchandise than say Lady Tremaine. She's not consistently featured in the Disney Villains line like Maleficent, Ursula, Cruella, and the Evil Queen but I'd say that she makes more appearance than any other female villain besides the Queen of Hearts.

It's a real shame about Hans. The only thing about his being a villain that I like is the finale scene where Anna chooses to save Elsa over herself, but I suppose that scene could have worked with the Duke of Weselton or someone else too. I forgot, but did you ever read A Frozen Heart? I loved the backstory they gave him there and it really made him sympathetic without excusing his actions. You can understand how he turned into what he hated most by the end of Frozen and I really wish that more time on the film had been devoted to him and Elsa, rather than the generic road trip between Anna and Kristoff. Kristoff should have been cut imo. He only exists to give Anna a love interest at the end which is the same reason why Hans has to be villain because they wanted to tie everything up neatly.

Ive read bits and pieces of FH but never actually read the whole thing. Ive read many Hans fans they like it but other have felt it was too fanficy(like so many of these kind of YA aimed Disney spin off books seem to be) and many also disagree as to whether it makes him more sympathetic or more evil/unlikable. I really do need to get around and read it one day though. I did think its kind of interesting that the author made him a self harmer.

there's also Conceal Dont Feel: A Twisted Tale out now which I was hoping would give us a more heroic or at least less antagonistic take on Hans since its supposed to be AU but from what Ive read he's more or less the same, just that this time he gets more pressure and encouragement from Weaselton.

I liked Kristoff in the first film but wow have they really dumbed down his character since.

I'm fine with Hans, though he could have been more nuanced. It's the Duke of Weselton that turned out to be completely pointless.

unprincess wrote:Ive read bits and pieces of FH but never actually read the whole thing. Ive read many Hans fans they like it but other have felt it was too fanficy(like so many of these kind of YA aimed Disney spin off books seem to be) and many also disagree as to whether it makes him more sympathetic or more evil/unlikable. I really do need to get around and read it one day though. I did think its kind of interesting that the author made him a self harmer.

there's also Conceal Dont Feel: A Twisted Tale out now which I was hoping would give us a more heroic or at least less antagonistic take on Hans since its supposed to be AU but from what Ive read he's more or less the same, just that this time he gets more pressure and encouragement from Weaselton.

I liked Kristoff in the first film but wow have they really dumbed down his character since.

I skimmed it too because I was just interested in the Hans bits. I was surprised they went as dark as they did for a Disney book (like you mentioned, the self-harm aspects) but the YA books seem to have more leeway since Disney doesn't really consider them canon.

Glad to hear that the Twisted Tale version isn't really worth reading. I'm still trying to find a proper summary of the Snow White one to see if there's anything interesting in it.

farerb wrote:I'm fine with Hans, though he could have been more nuanced. It's the Duke of Weselton that turned out to be completely pointless.

I think he was just added in to serve as a red herring for the true villain. Although frankly there was nothing about him that ever made me feel anyone would consider him to be the big bad of the film.

Well, now that Frozen II has been released, we'll have this movie from WDAS to look forward to. Looking at the concept art again, I've noticed that she's also a heroine who wears pants. So it means that she'll be the fourth Oriental heroine in a row to have pants (if you count GoGo from Big Hero 6). Since both Jasmine and Mulan wore pants.



Wonder when we'll get more information about this movie and some news about the upcoming teaser.

When it comes to Raya, it all depends on how Disney markets this feature. If we go by the Sequels, they had they're teasers released in February. But 2020 will be different. You got 2 original Pixar features being released in 4 months "Onward/Soul", & both of them are way more important than Raya. Pixar is second to none. So all you will see for the first 6 months of next year is stuff for those 2 features. I believe the teaser for Raya will drop next June, after Soul is out. But that could be a problem. Disney will just try to shove everything for Raya out the last few months before it's November release. There also has not been a lot of interest in Raya. Most people have no idea this feature is coming out next year. Also, what is going to be considered Raya being a Box office hit? Being the next feature following Frozen II, expectations will be very high! For me, if Raya can match Moana, that would be OK, but will it be for Disney? Moana was constantly being compared to Frozen, & some see it as it not be a success because it didn't match Frozen's Billions & merchandise sales. It didn't matter that Moana made more than Tangled & Brave, it wasn't Frozen. Also, Raya will not be a Musical. Moana did have a successful soundtrack, nowhere near as big as Frozen, but did have a strong, vocal fanbase.

I really hope Raya is successful, if not, those Original features after Raya will be out. No way Disney will invest $100s of millions on new features to make Moana/Tangled money. They want Frozen/Zootopia billions! If Raya fails, expect announcements for Frozen 3 & Zootopia 2 at D23 2021

DisneyEra wrote:When it comes to Raya, it all depends on how Disney markets this feature. If we go by the Sequels, they had they're teasers released in February. But 2020 will be different. You got 2 original Pixar features being released in 4 months "Onward/Soul", & both of them are way more important than Raya. Pixar is second to none. So all you will see for the first 6 months of next year is stuff for those 2 features. I believe the teaser for Raya will drop next June, after Soul is out. But that could be a problem. Disney will just try to shove everything for Raya out the last few months before it's November release. There also has not been a lot of interest in Raya. Most people have no idea this feature is coming out next year. Also, what is going to be considered Raya being a Box office hit? Being the next feature following Frozen II, expectations will be very high! For me, if Raya can match Moana, that would be OK, but will it be for Disney? Moana was constantly being compared to Frozen, & some see it as it not be a success because it didn't match Frozen's Billions & merchandise sales. It didn't matter that Moana made more than Tangled & Brave, it wasn't Frozen. Also, Raya will not be a Musical. Moana did have a successful soundtrack, nowhere near as big as Frozen, but did have a strong, vocal fanbase.

I really hope Raya is successful, if not, those Original features after Raya will be out. No way Disney will invest $100s of millions on new features to make Moana/Tangled money. They want Frozen/Zootopia billions! If Raya fails, expect announcements for Frozen 3 & Zootopia 2 at D23 2021

A Zootopia 2 announcement is already supposedly going to be coming according to Gennifer Goodwin but Frozen 2 is inevitable regardless, just like Toy Story 5.

As for Raya, I agree that if the film makes only Big Hero 6/Moana levels of money, Disney won't be super pleased. Especially since both of these films weren't huge merchandise sellers like Tangled and especially Frozen. Raya seems like it'll be even more difficult to sell merchandise because her design doesn't come across as particularly girly and there are no songs.

JeanGreyForever wrote:

DisneyEra wrote:When it comes to Raya, it all depends on how Disney markets this feature. If we go by the Sequels, they had they're teasers released in February. But 2020 will be different. You got 2 original Pixar features being released in 4 months "Onward/Soul", & both of them are way more important than Raya. Pixar is second to none. So all you will see for the first 6 months of next year is stuff for those 2 features. I believe the teaser for Raya will drop next June, after Soul is out. But that could be a problem. Disney will just try to shove everything for Raya out the last few months before it's November release. There also has not been a lot of interest in Raya. Most people have no idea this feature is coming out next year. Also, what is going to be considered Raya being a Box office hit? Being the next feature following Frozen II, expectations will be very high! For me, if Raya can match Moana, that would be OK, but will it be for Disney? Moana was constantly being compared to Frozen, & some see it as it not be a success because it didn't match Frozen's Billions & merchandise sales. It didn't matter that Moana made more than Tangled & Brave, it wasn't Frozen. Also, Raya will not be a Musical. Moana did have a successful soundtrack, nowhere near as big as Frozen, but did have a strong, vocal fanbase.

I really hope Raya is successful, if not, those Original features after Raya will be out. No way Disney will invest $100s of millions on new features to make Moana/Tangled money. They want Frozen/Zootopia billions! If Raya fails, expect announcements for Frozen 3 & Zootopia 2 at D23 2021

A Zootopia 2 announcement is already supposedly going to be coming according to Gennifer Goodwin but Frozen 2 is inevitable regardless, just like Toy Story 5.

As for Raya, I agree that if the film makes only Big Hero 6/Moana levels of money, Disney won't be super pleased. Especially since both of these films weren't huge merchandise sellers like Tangled and especially Frozen. Raya seems like it'll be even more difficult to sell merchandise because her design doesn't come across as particularly girly and there are no songs.

I agree, Frozen 3 & Zoo 2 are inevitable, but expect they're official announcements sooner if Raya fails. For BH6, it really held it's own in 2014. The fact that it out grossed How to train your Dragon 2 was huge. Then to add insult to injury, win the Oscar for best animated feature! That's why I believe BH6 got it's TV series, it was rewarded for those 2 accomplishments.

For Raya & the Dragon, they're CGI designs have not yet been reviled to the public. I hope they are good, cause first impressions are gonna really be hard for this feature. If they leak ala Anna/Elsa's back in 2013 & have the same reaction,that will be devastating!

DisneyEra wrote:

JeanGreyForever wrote: A Zootopia 2 announcement is already supposedly going to be coming according to Gennifer Goodwin but Frozen 2 is inevitable regardless, just like Toy Story 5.

As for Raya, I agree that if the film makes only Big Hero 6/Moana levels of money, Disney won't be super pleased. Especially since both of these films weren't huge merchandise sellers like Tangled and especially Frozen. Raya seems like it'll be even more difficult to sell merchandise because her design doesn't come across as particularly girly and there are no songs.

I agree, Frozen 3 & Zoo 2 are inevitable, but expect they're official announcements sooner if Raya fails. For BH6, it really held it's own in 2014. The fact that it out grossed How to train your Dragon 2 was huge. Then to add insult to injury, win the Oscar for best animated feature! That's why I believe BH6 got it's TV series, it was rewarded for those 2 accomplishments.

For Raya & the Dragon, they're CGI designs have not yet been reviled to the public. I hope they are good, cause first impressions are gonna really be hard for this feature. If they leak ala Anna/Elsa's back in 2013 & have the same reaction,that will be devastating!

The TV series was also evidence that Disney doesn't have enough faith in giving Big Hero 6 its own proper sequel which was highly talked about after the film's release. Especially after Zootopia, the next film, did so much better that Disney probably felt there wasn't a need to continue with Big Hero 6 beyond the smallscreen. I barely see it being merchandised in the Disney Store either (besides Japan where it's still pretty popular).

Apparently the CGI designs are supposed to be more sophisticated and intricate so I'm curious as to if the general public will accept them or not. The Frozen comparison doesn't work for me though because while they were heavily reviled online, that clearly didn't stop the film from becoming a juggernaut. And honestly, outside of online Disney fans, the general public probably prefers those cookie cutter designs. Raya going in the way of more realistic and less traditional and glossy CGI might not be as appealing to general audiences even if the online fandom is going crazy over it.

I don't know how it was decided that Tangled/BH6 got TV series while Ralph/Frozen got sequels. For me I wish that Ralph got the TV series & BH6 got the sequel But then, the Wrecked Princesses wouldn't exist

Zoo's success was just so unexpected for Disney. They had no idea that it was gonna be a $Billion grosser/Oscar winner! That's probably why you don't see any merchandise for it. It was never meant to have any. Zoo's success was suppose to be what Moana should have done. Funny, cause if you even switch Moana/Zoo's Box Office, Zoo would still be considered a hit!

For Raya's CGI designs, I don't want stuff leaked ala Frozen. Frozen had a horrible marketing campaign back in 2013. And while it didn't effect the final movie, this is unlikely to happen with Raya. Disney needs to market this film properly with timely announcements.

DisneyEra wrote:When it comes to Raya, it all depends on how Disney markets this feature. If we go by the Sequels, they had they're teasers released in February. But 2020 will be different. You got 2 original Pixar features being released in 4 months "Onward/Soul", & both of them are way more important than Raya. Pixar is second to none. So all you will see for the first 6 months of next year is stuff for those 2 features. I believe the teaser for Raya will drop next June, after Soul is out. But that could be a problem. Disney will just try to shove everything for Raya out the last few months before it's November release.

To be honest, I've would personally want a teaser released in February, or at least a promotional featurette. Remember that Disney released a promotional featurette of Moana in early 2016, while there was a brief promotional commercial of Frozen in the spring of 2013 by Chris Buck (though those commercials barely featured any clips from their movie themselves). But I guess Disney just try to shove everything for Raya out the last few months before it's November release, like you said.

There also has not been a lot of interest in Raya. Most people have no idea this feature is coming out next year.

True that. There's been remarkably little buzz about it, despite that Disney features with female leads are now considered cool and hip again. Even Moana got more expectation.

Also, what is going to be considered Raya being a Box office hit? Being the next feature following Frozen II, expectations will be very high! For me, if Raya can match Moana, that would be OK, but will it be for Disney? Also, Raya will not be a Musical. Moana did have a successful soundtrack, nowhere near as big as Frozen, but did have a strong, vocal fanbase.

Of course it will be compared to Frozen II, coming at the heels of it. But since it's another picture with a non-Caucasian heroine, it will see comparisons to Moana, Mulan or Pocahontas, for those mere reasons alone (of course we could take The Princess and the Frog into consideration, but it's awkward to even mentioned that, due to it's reputation). But I find it really remarkable that it won't be a musical, due to how Disney have now experienced that the audience can now adore a true animated musical.

Moana was constantly being compared to Frozen, & some see it as it not be a success because it didn't match Frozen's Billions & merchandise sales. It didn't matter that Moana made more than Tangled & Brave, it wasn't Frozen.

Of course Moana was going to suffer comparisons to Frozen, coming at the heels of this juggernaut and behemoth and being another (yes, I'll dare to use the term) Princess movie that was a musical. And of course it's success didn't matter, since it wasn't Frozen. But due to how Auli'i Cravalho was coy and vague about a sequel, one must wonder if it's about to happen. Let's not forget the upcoming Latina project with Lin Manuel Miranda.

I really hope Raya is successful, if not, those Original features after Raya will be out. No way Disney will invest $100s of millions on new features to make Moana/Tangled money. They want Frozen/Zootopia billions! If Raya fails, expect announcements for Frozen 3 & Zootopia 2 at D23 2021

I hope it will be successful if it turns out to be any good.

I hope they are good, cause first impressions are gonna really be hard for this feature. If they leak ala Anna/Elsa's back in 2013 & have the same reaction,that will be devastating!

To be honest, I wasn't too keen on the first impressions of the leaks of Frozen in 2013. But afterwards, I thought they were the best shots of the Princesses, since they looked worse on the movie itself than on their leaks. Sorry guys

DisneyEra wrote:I don't know how it was decided that Tangled/BH6 got TV series while Ralph/Frozen got sequels. For me I wish that Ralph got the TV series & BH6 got the sequel But then, the Wrecked Princesses wouldn't exist

Zoo's success was just so unexpected for Disney. They had no idea that it was gonna be a $Billion grosser/Oscar winner! That's probably why you don't see any merchandise for it. It was never meant to have any. Zoo's success was suppose to be what Moana should have done. Funny, cause if you even switch Moana/Zoo's Box Office, Zoo would still be considered a hit!

For Raya's CGI designs, I don't want stuff leaked ala Frozen. Frozen had a horrible marketing campaign back in 2013. And while it didn't effect the final movie, this is unlikely to happen with Raya. Disney needs to market this film properly with timely announcements.

I think they mentioned that they did consider making a Tangled sequel but there was ultimately no good story or script for them to justify that. Wreck-It Ralph was still one of the early films in the era, so its gross, like that of Tangled's, would have been considered enough to justify a sequel. However, with blockbuster films like Frozen and Zootopia and WIR2 still basically making the same amount of money as the first film, there's no way we'll see another installment.

BH6 would be a natural choice for a sequel especially with all the superhero films. I guess the problem was that it didn't gross as much as a Marvel film or Incredibles 2 for Disney to care to put any more effort into the franchise. So it's relegated to a TV series, basically this generation's direct-to-video sequel.

True, Raya will probably not bounce back the way Frozen did.

DisneyFan09 wrote: Of course it will be compared to Frozen II, coming at the heels of it. But since it's another picture with a non-Caucasian heroine, it will see comparisons to Moana, Mulan or Pocahontas, for those mere reasons alone (of course we could take The Princess and the Frog into consideration, but it's awkward to even mentioned that, due to it's reputation). But I find it really remarkable that it won't be a musical, due to how Disney have now experienced that the audience can now adore a true animated musical.

Of course Moana was going to suffer comparisons to Frozen, coming at the heels of this juggernaut and behemoth and being another (yes, I'll dare to use the term) Princess movie that was a musical. And of course it's success didn't matter, since it wasn't Frozen. But due to how Auli'i Cravalho was coy and vague about a sequel, one must wonder if it's about to happen. Let's not forget the upcoming Latina project with Lin Manuel Miranda.

To be honest, I wasn't too keen on the first impressions of the leaks of Frozen in 2013. But afterwards, I thought they were the best shots of the Princesses, since they looked worse on the movie itself than on their leaks. Sorry guys

Probably it will be most compared to Mulan and Moana. Pocahontas, despite all the flack it gets, was still one of Disney's biggest hits from the 90s (and same with Hunchback actually). I'm not sure how Moana fares comparatively in the Revival era. I think Disney is afraid of making every movie a musical like in the 90s because they're afraid audiences will find that stale. Although ironically enough, out of all the musicals from the Revival era, only Frozen is the one that has really popular music. Tangled and Moana both never reached the heights of Frozen or any of the 90s films when it comes to their music with constant radio play and Oscar and Grammy awards. Practically everybody knows Let It Go like they know A Whole New World, Colors of the Wind, or Circle of Life, but I See the Light and How Far I'll Go are nowhere near as iconic or beloved.

Considering how it grossed (it barely beat Sing at the worldwide box office and Sing actually outperformed it at the domestic level) and reports that merchandise did not sell as well as expected, I'm inclined to doubt any sequel plans. A TV series seems most likely going by Tangled and Big Hero 6.

Lol.

I disagree about Moana. It won the Grammys and the AMA. How Far I'll Go and You're Welcome are still remembered. There's also a reason why it took them too long to put Moana in the Princess franchise. Though it won't get a sequel. The way Jennifer Lee talks about Frozen II makes it seem like they actually won't make sequels if the original creators don't have any scripts. Musker left Disney and I have no idea what Clements is up to, but I don't think he wants a sequel, he comes from a generation of filmmakers who don't believe in sequels. And the way RBTI and Frozen II turned out, I'm glad Moana won't get a sequel, that story is complete. I don't care to see contrivances that get Moana to go on a pointless journey with Maui to do whatever.

Oh wow, you're right. For some reason, I thought La La Land won the Grammy but I guess it just won the Oscar. For that matter, it shocked me that even I See the Light won a Grammy. Meanwhile, neither The Lion King or Tarzan won Grammys at all for their Oscar winning songs. I always thought the Oscars and Grammy's align with each other more often.

While I have heard love for How Far I'll Go and You're Welcome, it's nowhere near the amount that the Frozen songs got. I was in high school when Frozen came out, and I remember every teacher was playing that soundtrack and we would hear it on the morning announcements and assemblies as well. And I don't remember the Moana songs ever getting nearly the same amount of radio play as Frozen ever did. Frozen's album topped the charts for 13 weeks or so whereas Moana never even reached #1. And on top of that, Frozen was still one of the best selling soundtracks years after the film had come out.

It really depends on how they market the film, but I can see it struggling. The wide mainstream white American audience will find the setting too alienating, and the lack of songs would put a dent on the film's popularity amidst fans and kids. Unless the story does something amazing with the narrative, I imagine it can go the way of Atlantis.

DisneyEra wrote: You got 2 original Pixar features being released in 4 months "Onward/Soul", & both of them are way more important than Raya.

They aren't more important than Raya. Why would they be? I don't think this film is going to be compared to the sequel to the biggest Disney film in ages at all. Disney will be comparing its performance to Moana and Big Hero 6. Of course Disney will always be hoping for another billion seller like Frozen and Zootopia that they can start another franchise with, but my guess is they'll be "satisfied" if it at least does as well as Moana / BH6.

So all you will see for the first 6 months of next year is stuff for those 2 features.

I expect so, partly because Disney wants to nix the "only sequels" criticisms being lobbed at Disney/PIXAR.

As for the Moana soundtrack, the only one I've seen a lot of talk about before is "Shiny." It's not the best in the film, but it must be the most memorable.