DVDizzy Forum

I get that Jen Lee was trying her darndest to make Disney's version of a Ghibli film. And there are some good ideas here, but she just does NOT know how to world build. How does that happen when you have 6 years!?

btw I recently watched the movie The King's Speech (I know Im about a decade late, and I adored it!) and later realized that Elsa pulled an "Edward the VIII" on poor Anna. At least Anna will probably be better at speeches than poor Bertie was.

Disney Duster wrote:So, Doug Walker, who didn't like this film, said something in his review of it I never thought of before. I may be really stupid for realizing something maybe all of you already knew, but here goes. He said in "Show Yourself", Elsa was bonding with her mother who used to be the fifth spirit before her. I didn't think that was the case either time I watched the film, but if that is the case, I think that does actually make that song and that moment a lot better and more meaningful. I still think this movie is bad, I don't like the whole spirits of the forest thing at all really and the sisters seperating to break the spell and then staying seperated in the end for good (!), but I must admit that does make that part of Frozen II kinda touching. Still don't get why Elsa freezes.

I can't even remember if I thought Elsa's mom was the 5th spirit or not. I doesn't sound familiar so I doubt I realized that and I don't remember anyone else posting it here. To be honest, the whole ending was really confusing and I had no idea why the events that happened happened, such as why Elsa freezes. I don't mind the sisters being separated for good but it's a really flimsy reason especially when Elsa can come over and visit anytime. The original ending where she dies might have made more sense although I hope they would explain how/why she dies if they're just going with the freezing alternative.

unprincess wrote:I get that Jen Lee was trying her darndest to make Disney's version of a Ghibli film. And there are some good ideas here, but she just does NOT know how to world build. How does that happen when you have 6 years!?

btw I recently watched the movie The King's Speech (I know Im about a decade late, and I adored it!) and later realized that Elsa pulled an "Edward the VIII" on poor Anna. At least Anna will probably be better at speeches than poor Bertie was.

Yes, abdication is a huge deal and Edward VIII was blamed for his brother's death.

JeanGreyForever wrote:I can't even remember if I thought Elsa's mom was the 5th spirit or not. I doesn't sound familiar so I doubt I realized that and I don't remember anyone else posting it here. To be honest, the whole ending was really confusing and I had no idea why the events that happened happened, such as why Elsa freezes. I don't mind the sisters being separated for good but it's a really flimsy reason especially when Elsa can come over and visit anytime. The original ending where she dies might have made more sense although I hope they would explain how/why she dies if they're just going with the freezing alternative.

Oh, so maybe only Doug Walker ever realized what the film was saying! Or it's just one theory. I still wouldn't have liked the movie if Elsa died. It would not have fixed the rest of the nothing feeling I get from the film, but if they did do that, yes they should explain why, or make it clear.

farerb wrote:

unprincess wrote:I get that Jen Lee was trying her darndest to make Disney's version of a Ghibli film. And there are some good ideas here, but she just does NOT know how to world build. How does that happen when you have 6 years!?

btw I recently watched the movie The King's Speech (I know Im about a decade late, and I adored it!) and later realized that Elsa pulled an "Edward the VIII" on poor Anna. At least Anna will probably be better at speeches than poor Bertie was.

Yes, abdication is a huge deal and Edward VIII was blamed for his brother's death.

of course we know "Disney" monarchies dont work the way real life monarchies do/did. But it would've been nice if we had gotten to see Anna's reaction to Elsa's decision. I think it would make an interesting story line for a short.

unprincess wrote:

farerb wrote: Yes, abdication is a huge deal and Edward VIII was blamed for his brother's death.

of course we know "Disney" monarchies dont work the way real life monarchies do/did. But it would've been nice if we had gotten to see Anna's reaction to Elsa's decision. I think it would make an interesting story line for a short.

I remember the first film got similar criticism because Elsa doesn't become queen until 3 years after her parents are killed. She's 18 when they pass away so that wasn't considered too young to be a queen yet they wait until she's 21. So who was ruling the kingdom for those three years? I think the filmmakers later on established in a tweet that there was some sort of regent for that time but it's clearly just a hastily adapted fix.

Disney Duster wrote:

JeanGreyForever wrote:I can't even remember if I thought Elsa's mom was the 5th spirit or not. I doesn't sound familiar so I doubt I realized that and I don't remember anyone else posting it here. To be honest, the whole ending was really confusing and I had no idea why the events that happened happened, such as why Elsa freezes. I don't mind the sisters being separated for good but it's a really flimsy reason especially when Elsa can come over and visit anytime. The original ending where she dies might have made more sense although I hope they would explain how/why she dies if they're just going with the freezing alternative.

Oh, so maybe only Doug Walker ever realized what the film was saying! Or it's just one theory. I still wouldn't have liked the movie if Elsa died. It would not have fixed the rest of the nothing feeling I get from the film, but if they did do that, yes they should explain why, or make it clear.

Agreed.

JeanGreyForever wrote: I remember the first film got similar criticism because Elsa doesn't become queen until 3 years after her parents are killed. She's 18 when they pass away so that wasn't considered too young to be a queen yet they wait until she's 21. So who was ruling the kingdom for those three years? I think the filmmakers later on established in a tweet that there was some sort of regent for that time but it's clearly just a hastily adapted fix.

Yes, the problem with a regent is that they would have resumed their regency after Elsa flees because:
1. Anna shouldn't have authority about who rules Arendelle since she's younger than 21.
2. There's no reason for a stranger from a strange land to get the control over Arendelle and people, especially the previous regent, to be fine with it. The most logical thing was to give it to the previous regent.

Also, Hans wouldn't have been king since marrying Anna would have only made him a consort, the one to rule after Elsa are Elsa's children then Anna, then Anna's children. So Hans best hope was to produce an heir with Anna and then kill both sisters and claim regency. Killing Anna and Elsa without an heir means that the kingship should pass to their closest blood relative.

Jennifer Lee is the kind of writer that just writes around one scene (Frozen: Let it Go, Frozen II: Dark Sea) and kind of writes what would progress the plot while disregarding the things that don't really make sense. It was there in Frozen and became apparent in Frozen II, and quite frankly I'm worried about future WDAS because she's in charge.

farerb wrote: Jennifer Lee is the kind of writer that just writes around one scene (Frozen: Let it Go, Frozen II: Dark Sea) and kind of writes what would progress the plot while disregarding the things that don't really make sense. It was there in Frozen and became apparent in Frozen II, and quite frankly I'm worried about future WDAS because she's in charge.

This is the most accurate thing I’ve read in a long time. It’s so clear that she takes the easy way out in a lot of her writing. I give her credit for going darker in the sequel, but she just doesn’t have what it takes to make the kind of movie she thinks she does. Both movies feel like they have sparks of genius but neither reaches the heights they could. They feel like a day trip instead of a journey.

I could write a 50 page essay about these movies, they bother me that much. There are so many opportunities they could’ve taken with them but didn’t. And it makes me sad because all I want is to see the studio recapture the pure magic of the early 90’s. But with her in charge, I’m really nervous to see where the studio goes. The studio definitely needs a female voice. I think that’s very important and after the almost two decades of mediocre films it’s a welcome change. But I just don’t think she was the right choice.

I’m glad I enjoy her work more than others here, since with both these films doing a billion dollars in business, she’s probably not going anywhere for a while. Not to say people can’t like her, it’s inevitable for the person leading to be hated by someone, I’m just glad I do like the person in power this time. All those years of being told how great Lasseter was at making films--even though they all basically followed the same script--simply because XYZ made lots of money was unbearable. If Jennifer Lee can have sustained success while in charge, I wonder if we’ll get those same articles about her being the “new Walt Disney” that Lasseter did?

reminds me of how I felt that Frozen 2 was like a watching a bunch of beautifully made but thematically disconnected music videos and then they tried to connected all those videos into one story line. My hope is that she'll be too busy in the future being CCO that she'll leave the directing to other maybe more experienced creators.

nomad2010 wrote: This is the most accurate thing I’ve read in a long time. It’s so clear that she takes the easy way out in a lot of her writing. I give her credit for going darker in the sequel, but she just doesn’t have what it takes to make the kind of movie she thinks she does. Both movies feel like they have sparks of genius but neither reaches the heights they could. They feel like a day trip instead of a journey.

I could write a 50 page essay about these movies, they bother me that much. There are so many opportunities they could’ve taken with them but didn’t. And it makes me sad because all I want is to see the studio recapture the pure magic of the early 90’s. But with her in charge, I’m really nervous to see where the studio goes. The studio definitely needs a female voice. I think that’s very important and after the almost two decades of mediocre films it’s a welcome change. But I just don’t think she was the right choice.

This is why I never liked that this era was called the Second Renaissance or Revival (which is another way of describing Renaissance). Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever get another Renaissance. The Renaissance was a combination of the right people at the right time, coming together, motivated to get out of their despair after such a long time without any competent leadership, and to prove everyone that they can make films worthy to be a part of Disney Animation's legacy. They had passion, it was about making art as well as making a profit. I don't feel like this is where the studio is nowadays. It feels too much like a corporate than it did back then.

unprincess wrote:reminds me of how I felt that Frozen 2 was like a watching a bunch of beautifully made but thematically disconnected music videos and then they tried to connected all those videos into one story line. My hope is that she'll be too busy in the future being CCO that she'll leave the directing to other maybe more experienced creators.

That’ll probably happen. I don’t see her micromanaging everything or acting with as much egomania as Lasseter did.

farerb wrote:

JeanGreyForever wrote: I remember the first film got similar criticism because Elsa doesn't become queen until 3 years after her parents are killed. She's 18 when they pass away so that wasn't considered too young to be a queen yet they wait until she's 21. So who was ruling the kingdom for those three years? I think the filmmakers later on established in a tweet that there was some sort of regent for that time but it's clearly just a hastily adapted fix.

Yes, the problem with a regent is that they would have resumed their regency after Elsa flees because:
1. Anna shouldn't have authority about who rules Arendelle since she's younger than 21.
2. There's no reason for a stranger from a strange land to get the control over Arendelle and people, especially the previous regent, to be fine with it. The most logical thing was to give it to the previous regent.

Also, Hans wouldn't have been king since marrying Anna would have only made him a consort, the one to rule after Elsa are Elsa's children then Anna, then Anna's children. So Hans best hope was to produce an heir with Anna and then kill both sisters and claim regency. Killing Anna and Elsa without an heir means that the kingship should pass to their closest blood relative.

Jennifer Lee is the kind of writer that just writes around one scene (Frozen: Let it Go, Frozen II: Dark Sea) and kind of writes what would progress the plot while disregarding the things that don't really make sense. It was there in Frozen and became apparent in Frozen II, and quite frankly I'm worried about future WDAS because she's in charge.

Jennifer Lee would write a quick tweet about how the regent died and that's why he couldn't take over lol.

I never understood why Hans felt he could take over, for all the reasons you listed, but also because as he acknowledged, he and Anna only got to say their wedding vows to each other. That does not mean they would be recognized as a married couple by the Church. At least older Disney films never tried to get involved in kingdom politics only to muck things up when there's absolutely no realism.

I knew Frozen was retooled because of Let It Go but is it true that Frozen II was created entirely around that dark sea scene? That explains why it was used in the teaser and to be perfectly frank, it wasn't compelling enough in the first place to formulate a whole film around. If that's the case, then I seriously have to doubt Jennifer Lee's writing because while she has good ideas, she can't string them together and needs someone who can make a proper script. The fact that they had 6 years between both Frozen films and this is what they came up with, a shoddy mess that only looks pretty on the outside, is not something to be proud of at all. Dreamworks and other studios can do the same, if not better, in 2-3 years to make sequels.

nomad2010 wrote:

farerb wrote: Jennifer Lee is the kind of writer that just writes around one scene (Frozen: Let it Go, Frozen II: Dark Sea) and kind of writes what would progress the plot while disregarding the things that don't really make sense. It was there in Frozen and became apparent in Frozen II, and quite frankly I'm worried about future WDAS because she's in charge.

This is the most accurate thing I’ve read in a long time. It’s so clear that she takes the easy way out in a lot of her writing. I give her credit for going darker in the sequel, but she just doesn’t have what it takes to make the kind of movie she thinks she does. Both movies feel like they have sparks of genius but neither reaches the heights they could. They feel like a day trip instead of a journey.

I could write a 50 page essay about these movies, they bother me that much. There are so many opportunities they could’ve taken with them but didn’t. And it makes me sad because all I want is to see the studio recapture the pure magic of the early 90’s. But with her in charge, I’m really nervous to see where the studio goes. The studio definitely needs a female voice. I think that’s very important and after the almost two decades of mediocre films it’s a welcome change. But I just don’t think she was the right choice.

Honestly, was the sequel darker? It really doesn't feel that way especially since one could argue if Elsa is dead or not and even the ending is hardly that tragic since Elsa and Anna don't seem to have much of a reaction to being separated (unlike the ending in Toy Story 4).They try to approach the plight of colonialism but it feels hamfisted and not truly a message especially with the retcon of Elsa's mom which doesn't even work when she looks snow white as an adult. I definitely see this getting heavily criticized in generations to come and on that mistake alone, I can see Frozen 2 not being well regarded.

Honestly, I think the first Frozen succeeded primarily because of the music, the sister dynamic, and the twist ending that true love's kiss was broken not by a romantic kiss but between two sisters. I know I loved Frozen for those reasons particularly the songs and the ending. Even the sisterly dynamic is pretty superficial though. We're supposed to believe that Anna is absolutely in love with the idea of her sister despite having little to no interaction with her since she was like 4 years old or something. And they have absolutely no chance to hash out their issues with each other and instead Anna is 100% devoted to Elsa no matter what. The only reason their sisterly dynamic worked to win audiences over is because Disney rarely ever dived into female friendships like this, let alone female familial relationships, so even a small sampling was enough to make them appear progressive. And I hate to be that type of person who says that I want a woman in charge but "not that woman" and then uses that remark for every potential woman in charge because that's how Hillary Clinton and all the other women presidential candidates in the U.S. have been treated (detractors will never find a woman they are comfortable with), but I do agree in this case that I don't really think Jennifer Lee is the best choice. And it's a shame that there aren't many other prominent women in Disney to act as alternatives.

unprincess wrote:reminds me of how I felt that Frozen 2 was like a watching a bunch of beautifully made but thematically disconnected music videos and then they tried to connected all those videos into one story line. My hope is that she'll be too busy in the future being CCO that she'll leave the directing to other maybe more experienced creators.

I think that perfectly describes it. I hope that too.

JeanGreyForever wrote: Jennifer Lee would write a quick tweet about how the regent died and that's why he couldn't take over lol.

I never understood why Hans felt he could take over, for all the reasons you listed, but also because as he acknowledged, he and Anna only got to say their wedding vows to each other. That does not mean they would be recognized as a married couple by the Church. At least older Disney films never tried to get involved in kingdom politics only to muck things up when there's absolutely no realism.

I knew Frozen was retooled because of Let It Go but is it true that Frozen II was created entirely around that dark sea scene? That explains why it was used in the teaser and to be perfectly frank, it wasn't compelling enough in the first place to formulate a whole film around. If that's the case, then I seriously have to doubt Jennifer Lee's writing because while she has good ideas, she can't string them together and needs someone who can make a proper script. The fact that they had 6 years between both Frozen films and this is what they came up with, a shoddy mess that only looks pretty on the outside, is not something to be proud of at all. Dreamworks and other studios can do the same, if not better, in 2-3 years to make sequels.

Jennifer Lee wrote:The Dark Sea, for sure. We had that, I think, before we ever had a script. I'd say in different iterations of it, but I think that showed us the potential of Elsa up against nature, and trying to learn more about her powers in the situation, and it was so inspiring and I think it helped shape a lot of the movie. That one was from very early on.

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/248554 ... evelopment

JeanGreyForever wrote: Honestly, was the sequel darker? It really doesn't feel that way especially since one could argue if Elsa is dead or not and even the ending is hardly that tragic since Elsa and Anna don't seem to have much of a reaction to being separated (unlike the ending in Toy Story 4).They try to approach the plight of colonialism but it feels hamfisted and not truly a message especially with the retcon of Elsa's mom which doesn't even work when she looks snow white as an adult. I definitely see this getting heavily criticized in generations to come and on that mistake alone, I can see Frozen 2 not being well regarded.

I don't think the sequel was darker. They tried giving it a darker tone, the soundtrack has it, but in terms of characters? or sacrifice? ...Maybe Elsa. The rest was a waste of time. When I think of dark films, I think about Bambi, The Fox and the Hound and The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

JeanGreyForever wrote: Honestly, I think the first Frozen succeeded primarily because of the music, the sister dynamic, and the twist ending that true love's kiss was broken not by a romantic kiss but between two sisters. I know I loved Frozen for those reasons particularly the songs and the ending. Even the sisterly dynamic is pretty superficial though. We're supposed to believe that Anna is absolutely in love with the idea of her sister despite having little to no interaction with her since she was like 4 years old or something. And they have absolutely no chance to hash out their issues with each other and instead Anna is 100% devoted to Elsa no matter what. The only reason their sisterly dynamic worked to win audiences over is because Disney rarely ever dived into female friendships like this, let alone female familial relationships, so even a small sampling was enough to make them appear progressive. And I hate to be that type of person who says that I want a woman in charge but "not that woman" and then uses that remark for every potential woman in charge because that's how Hillary Clinton and all the other women presidential candidates in the U.S. have been treated (detractors will never find a woman they are comfortable with), but I do agree in this case that I don't really think Jennifer Lee is the best choice. And it's a shame that there aren't many other prominent women in Disney to act as alternatives.

Frozen has really good things in it despite its plot not being as articulate as it could have been. I think that its success, like you said, is thanks to the music (at least the first 5 songs), the sisters' relationship, especially their angst (people like angst) and the deconstruction of Disney tropes (which I personally don't love, but I understand why people would find it to be clever).

Guys the reason Frozen was so successful was also because Elsa had ice powers!!!

farerb wrote:

Jennifer Lee wrote:The Dark Sea, for sure. We had that, I think, before we ever had a script. I'd say in different iterations of it, but I think that showed us the potential of Elsa up against nature, and trying to learn more about her powers in the situation, and it was so inspiring and I think it helped shape a lot of the movie. That one was from very early on.

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/248554 ... evelopment

I don't think the sequel was darker. They tried giving it a darker tone, the soundtrack has it, but in terms of characters? or sacrifice? ...Maybe Elsa. The rest was a waste of time. When I think of dark films, I think about Bambi, The Fox and the Hound and The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Frozen has really good things in it despite its plot not being as articulate as it could have been. I think that its success, like you said, is thanks to the music (at least the first 5 songs), the sisters' relationship, especially their angst (people like angst) and the deconstruction of Disney tropes (which I personally don't love, but I understand why people would find it to be clever).

Oh yeah I did read that article before. Like I said, it wasn't that compelling enough of a sequence to shape the movie imo.

Agreed.

Elsa has angst which could explain why people could relate to her. But Anna had none whatsoever and that was a much needed component in their sisterly relationship. We got it in earlier drafts of the film with songs like Life's Too Short, but clearly they felt it wasn't working for whatever reason and needed to be glossed over.

Disney Duster wrote:Guys the reason Frozen was so successful was also because Elsa had ice powers!!!

Yes, that too.

Frozen 2: Making Your Animation Sing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmApDRaVPSE

Posters, banners, trailer, and press conference for "Into the Unknown: Making Frozen II".


Source: https://www.facebook.com/DisneyAnimatio ... 240661855/


Source: https://disneyplusoriginals.disney.com/ ... g-frozen-2


Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/CByd5uznwHI/


Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/CB_BSPnnTNR/


Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/CCRCzLxHfyj/


Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/CDJzP0knZa-/


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What a pretty poster. The Frozen films have been very pretty all around, which plays a part in their popularity as well, imo. I mean, like it or not, there are children who like pretty dresses and pretty magic and pretty music that goes with them. That’s just part of being a child.

JeanGreyForever wrote:Honestly, was the sequel darker? It really doesn't feel that way especially since one could argue if Elsa is dead or not and even the ending is hardly that tragic since Elsa and Anna don't seem to have much of a reaction to being separated (unlike the ending in Toy Story 4).They try to approach the plight of colonialism but it feels hamfisted and not truly a message especially with the retcon of Elsa's mom which doesn't even work when she looks snow white as an adult. I definitely see this getting heavily criticized in generations to come and on that mistake alone, I can see Frozen 2 not being well regarded.

I agree with you on that. The reviewers and crew were proudly declaring how darker the sequel was. It was visually darker and perhaps subdued in tone. But darker than it´s predecessor? Not that much. I felt Frozen was essentially darker, since there was more at stake in that movie and the tone was actually quite dark at times.

Disney's Divinity wrote:What a pretty poster.

Agreed, it was a nice-looking poster

farerb wrote:This is why I never liked that this era was called the Second Renaissance or Revival (which is another way of describing Renaissance). Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever get another Renaissance. The Renaissance was a combination of the right people at the right time, coming together, motivated to get out of their despair after such a long time without any competent leadership, and to prove everyone that they can make films worthy to be a part of Disney Animation's legacy. They had passion, it was about making art as well as making a profit. I don't feel like this is where the studio is nowadays. It feels too much like a corporate than it did back then.

Well, sorry to nitpick, but technically this era has been called the Revival era. Otherwise, I agree with you. I don´t think that Disney´s identity has been lost. But these new movies just haven´t been great enough to measure up to Disney´s greatest features. They´ve had good components, but overall lacked the mojo that has made Disney great. The Wreck-It-Ralph films have been an exception, though, since they´ve came with a freshness that made them feel invigorating. And truth to be told, Big Hero 6 has grown on me on each viewing, despite that it feels like a movie that could´ve been from any other studio than Disney.