DVDizzy Forum

Okay people, let's get this one back on topic (what was the topic again? Oh, right, Disney Essence). I know I am as much to blame as anyone at this point, but it is time to move back to the "Disney Essence" subject.

CJ wrote:Okay people, let's get this one back on topic (what was the topic again? Oh, right, Disney Essence). I know I am as much to blame as anyone at this point, but it is time to move back to the "Disney Essence" subject.

But... that is a debate that is bound to be doomed!

DisneyAnimation, compromising is about not always getting what you want, but allowing something maybe you don't want so someone else gets it, but you get other things you want.

In other words, you would get 90% of the same Rapunzel movie you like, the difference would be the beginning prologue (peasants, Mother Gothel's garden) and the end epilogue (reunited with peasant parents, move's into Flynn's palace)! In the middle, the only difference would be that Flynn would be in disguise and instead of stealing a crown he stole something else, cuase I said he could be a prince turned thief. And Rapunzel would still think he betrayed her by sailing away tied to the ship by the Stabbington brothers, after he went to tell them he was going back to being a prince, and...it would really be the same!

Doesn't that sound...like a pretty darn good compromise? I mean...please, please, please, I beg you, please try with me.

DisneyAnimation88 wrote:

DisneyDuster wrote:When even one site agreed with me on this, I think it is reasonable to see this one as true, that we can agree on it, but at least I know I'm not the only one who sees it.

So because another person on the internet expressed an opinion the same as your's , that makes your's true?

No, I was saying at least I know for myself I'm not the only one who sees what I see, so I thought it was possible you may be able to see it, too.

DisneyAnimation88 wrote:

DisneyDuster wrote:Now, in Tangled, a traveling prince who goes to Rapunzel's tower to be with his love becomes a thieving bandit who goes to Rapunzel's tower to hide in the "new Disney" version.

If the alternative to the Disney version is a prince sitting in a tower and doing very little, as in the original fairy tale, then I'll take the Disney version every day of the week.

WTF...I already provided a Disney version that's not like that at all...

DisneyAnimation88 wrote:

DisneyDuster wrote:Anyway, everyone didn't answer this question: Which would be more right: keeping the things Walt kept in all his films, or doing whatever they want?

So basically, what I'm getting here is that you would rather Disney make terrible films as long as they do it how they THINK Walt might have, seen as he died almost fifty years ago and so we'll never have any way of knowing, than to be creative and original and make the films that they want to make they way they want to make them? After all, the Katzenberg era, a group of young, ambitious directors and animators, took liberties with the fairytales they adapted and the result was some of the most successful animated Disney films of all time. Personally, I see similarities between the Disney of today and those years of the Renaissance when animation at Disney seemed refreshed and the future seemed exciting and full of possibilities.

Well, no to the first thing you said, because it is not just doing it to how "they think" Walt wanted but adhering to similarities between all of Walt's films that everyone can see are evidently truly there, not they "think" are there, and they can be creative and original aside from those things that have always been the same in Walt's films, but to the second part, yes, I see some similarities between today's two last Disney fairy tale films and the Renaissance, too. But there are also differences between those Renaissance films and Walt's early films. And those are the amount of faithfulness to the tales, and to Walt's old films. You see, they made very creative takes on the tales in the Renaissance while still keeping much closer to the way Walt did the tales.

DisneyAnimation88 wrote:

DisneyDuster wrote:You invented a third option around it instead. :/

Yes, because I don't agree with what you said. I didn't "invent a third option", I gave my opinion on the matter.

So you're still not giving an honest yes or no answer.

DisneyAnimation88 wrote:

DisneyDuster wrote:And remember one more thing: In order to make a Disney film, you would have to at least have seen some films from Disney's past to know what a Disney film even is or is like.

Well I realise that so I don't see the point you're trying to make here. I would have thought that that would be kind of obvious to anyone.

The point is that you need to see some of Walt's films to know what a Disney film is and to make a Disney film = you have to follow some things the original Walt Disney set in his films. For all of you who talk about wanting logic, there's some.

I'm well aware of what it means to compromise and I will say this one final time: I like Tangled the way it is and I see nothing in it that I think needs to be changed. If you have issues with the film then that's fine, I have no problem with that but I'm going to compromise what I think and believe because you ask me to.

As for your version of Tangled, I don't want to sound rude or disrespectful but like I said before, I prefer the film as it is. I don't think you "provided a Disney version" at all, not when I think Tangled is a great Disney film.

In regards to whether I gave you an "honest answer", I certainly did as I gave you my opinion so how exactly is that dishonest? An internet forum such as UD doesn't work that way, you can't ask people a question and then accuse them of being dishonest if you don't get the answer that you want. Don't insinuate that I'm being dishonest again simply because I don't agree with your opinions.

The last point isn't so much logic, it's common sense. Why would you pursue a job as an animator at Disney if you were not familiar with the films that Walt made and were a fan of them, given how difficult it is to get a job there in the first place? Byron Howard's childhood dream was to be a Disney animator because he grew up watching Walt's films and he even got a job as a tour guide at the Art of Animation attraction in Walt Disney World so that he could learn more about animation while he pursued that dream. He also corresponded with Frank Thomas to learn as much as he could about being an animator at Disney so for me, he completely personnifies the point you made (though I know you're probably going to disagree because he co-directed the "un-Disney" Tangled).

But you said if I compromised, you would too, with me! So it's only fair!

Can you come up with an actual reason about the film itself or the Disney studio/essence itself as to why my changes wouldn't work or would be bad? The only reason you are giving is "you like it how it is and refuse change", which is not actually saying how my changes would be for the actual film or the Disney way.

And I asked you to pick only one of the choices I gave in my question, and you didn't pick any of them, that is why you are not answering it honestly. I have answered people's limited-choice questions!

I am willing to compromise and pick the choices people gave me when asked. Why aren't any of you nice enough to do the same for me?

DisneyDuster wrote:But you said if I compromised, you would too, with me! So it's only fair!

I think I've compromised reasonably enough here; I understand and respect your opinions and I don't expect you to change them.

DisneyDuster wrote:Can you come up with an actual reason about the film itself or the Disney studio/essence itself as to why my changes wouldn't work or would be bad?

I have already in another post. I don't think your ideas are bad, on the contrary I thought your version of the story was good, but I personally don't see the need to change that particular film. If you came up with a way to radically change the story of a film like Chicken Little then I would be on board with that but I enjoy Tangled the way it is.

DisneyDuster wrote:And I asked you to pick only one of the choices I gave in my question, and you didn't pick any of them, that is why you are not answering it honestly. I have answered people's limited-choice questions!

That's your perogative to answer those kinds of questions, I haven't asked you to do so and I won't either. When you give two options that I don't agree with, I'm not going to answer with either of them. Sorry but I'm not going to be backed into a corner here. I answered it honestly, I can't make that any clearer.

DisneyDuster wrote:I am willing to compromise and pick the choices people gave me when asked. Why aren't any of you nice enough to do the same for me?

I'm willing to compromise and say that you have your opinion and I have mine. But I'm not going to change my opinions to make you happy.

Telling me I have my own opinion is not compromising. So...what the heck?

So...you would really actually have a problem, like a big, legitimate problem, with Tangled being called Rapunzel and the beginning and ending are slightly different and that is all? Really? A problem with that little bit? The bookends?

I really am tired of having to continuously repeat myself to try and justify my opinions. There really is no point in carrying on with this discussion, neither of us can say that we're right or wrong here so let's just respect each other's opinions and move on.

But I still have to say it really is truly the right thing to do to try and make the film fit Disney's way (essence), how we can see, thorugh his past films, how Walt would very, very, very likely want it, when it would WORK and there is no good reason NOT TO. It's right to follow traditions that have stayed the same in all of Walt's films.

If you disagree, then I guess you can just stop trying anything more. But you haven't come up with a reason why not to do what I am explaining is the right thing to do other than "the film's fine as it is", so I won this.

And the other thing is, you don't know what I feel. I'm feeling so hurt by what the film did, I don't even like Disney as much anymore. So since I got so hurt, I think you should help me out. But you don't want to. You won't compromise something very tiny, after I have compromised what I originally wanted for you. You dislike me. Okay, because of my past or whatever. But if I was someone you liked more, I'm sure you'd try to help me out. But as we speak, you won't. For no very good reason. So I'm just still sad.

DisneyDuster wrote:If you disagree, then I guess you can just stop trying anything more. But you haven't come up with a reason why not to do what I am explaining is the right thing to do other than "the film's fine as it is", so I won this.

How and what have you won exactly? Is this some sort of game or competition that I wasn't aware of?

DisneyDuster wrote:So since I got so hurt, I think you should help me out. But you don't want to. You won't compromise something very tiny, after I have compromised what I originally wanted for you. You dislike me. Okay, because of my past or whatever. But if I was someone you liked more, I'm sure you'd try to help me out. But as we speak, you won't. For no very good reason. So I'm just still sad.

When have I ever said I dislike you? I have no issue with you or your past, you are who you are and you have your opinion. But it's not my obligation to help you out here; if you have a problem with Disney then it's your problem and only you can resolve it. It doesn't matter if I like or dislike someone, if we disagree on something I'm not going to try and change their minds. I've got nothing personal against you at all it's just we obviously have very different opinions here so I just think it's best to accept that and move on.

What I meant was I won the argument. I thought people said things like that.

The only way for me to solve Tangled's problem and Disney abandoning it's traditional past is, I think, to get as many people to join with me and petition or write or go to Disney with our complaints.

I know we have different opinions...I just still don't understand why you are still thinking what you do. You say "you like it as it is" instead of saying if you think my changes are good, bad, or if they would even effect the film at all (and the point is they hardly would!!!). It's rather frustrating for me because you "like" the film, but I was so deeply saddened by it I've lost so much...happiness and love with Disney, do you see the difference there, and you won't compromise to help me when you are not even saying it would hurt the film any!

You didn't seems to have problem with me liking the film as it was.

Wait so the "Disney Essence" is when something IS disney except for when it ISN'T?

I think the Disney Essence is adapting stories for the medium of animation. Yeah kind of plain but it's really what Walt as well as the company has done. And not all of the stories are famous or fairytales. Despite the fact that most of the films are fantasy, only about 7 or 8 are fairytales and Dumbo and Lady and the Tramp didnt come from famous stories so like I said it's just trying to adapt a story and make it their own.

Disney Duster wrote:What I meant was I won the argument. I thought people said things like that.

The only way for me to solve Tangled's problem and Disney abandoning it's traditional past is, I think, to get as many people to join with me and petition or write or go to Disney with our complaints.

I know we have different opinions...I just still don't understand why you are still thinking what you do. You say "you like it as it is" instead of saying if you think my changes are good, bad, or if they would even effect the film at all (and the point is they hardly would!!!). It's rather frustrating for me because you "like" the film, but I was so deeply saddened by it I've lost so much...happiness and love with Disney, do you see the difference there, and you won't compromise to help me when you are not even saying it would hurt the film any!

[/b]
I'm curious, what was so bad about the film that made it ''deeply saddened you''?

5star wrote:

Disney Duster wrote:What I meant was I won the argument. I thought people said things like that.

The only way for me to solve Tangled's problem and Disney abandoning it's traditional past is, I think, to get as many people to join with me and petition or write or go to Disney with our complaints.

I know we have different opinions...I just still don't understand why you are still thinking what you do. You say "you like it as it is" instead of saying if you think my changes are good, bad, or if they would even effect the film at all (and the point is they hardly would!!!). It's rather frustrating for me because you "like" the film, but I was so deeply saddened by it I've lost so much...happiness and love with Disney, do you see the difference there, and you won't compromise to help me when you are not even saying it would hurt the film any!

[/b]
I'm curious, what was so bad about the film that made it ''deeply saddened you''?

Because it isn't the way "walt" would want it. Or to be more specific, It doesn't follow the actual fairytale closely according to Duster. That's why.

DisneyDuster wrote:What I meant was I won the argument. I thought people said things like that.

I don't see how you've won; it seems to me that you haven't changed the minds of anyone who disagreed with you before and some are still unsure of what exactly the "essence" is.

DisneyDuster wrote:The only way for me to solve Tangled's problem and Disney abandoning it's traditional past is, I think, to get as many people to join with me and petition or write or go to Disney with our complaints.

The film made close to $600 million and received critical acclaim all over the world; no offense but I really don't see Disney agreeing that Tangled has problems based on those factors.

DisneyDuster wrote:I know we have different opinions...I just still don't understand why you are still thinking what you do.

Because we don't all think like you Disney Duster, if we all thought exactly the same then the world (especially this forum) would be a very boring place.. I like the film and I'm not going to be persuaded to change my mind on that; you need to understand and accept that.

DisneyDuster wrote:You say "you like it as it is" instead of saying if you think my changes are good, bad, or if they would even effect the film at all (and the point is they hardly would!!!).

I did address those changes in a post I think I made a couple of weeks ago. I'll put it simply; when I read your version and compared it to the film I thought about which one I thought I would enjoy watching more and that was Tangled.

DisneyDuster wrote:It's rather frustrating for me because you "like" the film, but I was so deeply saddened by it I've lost so much...happiness and love with Disney, do you see the difference there, and you won't compromise to help me when you are not even saying it would hurt the film any!

The key thing there is YOU'VE lost so much as you put it, I haven't. I don't see what is complicated about that and why I have to compromise on what I think to please you or make you feel better. I might not always agree with you but I don't make a point of trying to persuade you to change your mind. I like you Disney Duster and I respect your opinions so I'm asking you to respect mine too; I'm sorry if you don't like Disney as much any more but that's an issue that only you can resolve, me suddenly deciding to agree with you isn't going to resolve the problems you have with Disney right now.

This was posted on The Lion King thread, but despite the title, and the fact that it does talk about The Lion King (in 3D!), it also talks about Disney in general, and is relevant to this thread's topic:

<iframe src="http://blip.tv/play/AYLahAgC.html" width="480" height="300" frameborder="0"></iframe><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://a.blip.tv/api.swf#AYLahAgC"></embed>

Super Aurora wrote:
Because it isn't the way "walt" would want it. Or to be more specific, It doesn't follow the actual fairytale closely according to Duster. That's why.

So he isn't judging the film on its own...

Well, I'm glad its converted to what it is now. It has a whole lot more meaning to it compared to its source. Furthermore, it would have been too bland, and unappealing to alot of people who found this version interesting/good..

Also, walt is gone, without a clone. And I believe he would be very content to know his company making shit loads of money and brightening the disney name; I watched a couple of reviews on this recently, and most felt this movie was a sign of disney coming back. Some even put this up there as the best disneys made.

Thanks for posting that Nostalgia Chick video, Dream Huntress; I rather enjoyed it, and the Disney Vault joke was quite funny.

Super Aurora wrote:You didn't seems to have problem with me liking the film as it was.

I thought I had already told you too many times how I felt about the film...it's certainly okay if you like it, I like it, I just still have problems with it.

Christopher_TCUIH wrote:Wait so the "Disney Essence" is when something IS disney except for when it ISN'T?

I think the Disney Essence is adapting stories for the medium of animation. Yeah kind of plain but it's really what Walt as well as the company has done. And not all of the stories are famous or fairytales. Despite the fact that most of the films are fantasy, only about 7 or 8 are fairytales and Dumbo and Lady and the Tramp didnt come from famous stories so like I said it's just trying ...o adapt a story and make it their own.

You didn't feel like reading all I said, of course. I was saying that when Disney does adapt stories, Walt stuck closer to the source material than Tangled did now. Also, there are many things even their non-famous story movies have. Levels of gentleness or seriousness, fantasy, and the way they use music and animation...I already explained it.

DisneyAnimation88 wrote:

DisneyDuster wrote:You say "you like it as it is" instead of saying if you think my changes are good, bad, or if they would even effect the film at all (and the point is they hardly would!!!).

I did address those changes in a post I think I made a couple of weeks ago. I'll put it simply; when I read your version and compared it to the film I thought about which one I thought I would enjoy watching more and that was Tangled.

Aha! But remember, then I agreed to change my story, I agreed to compromise it to have Prince Flynn become a thief and the entire middle stays the same, only the beginning narration and ending change! So now the story's more like what you want, you would be a very kind person to compromise with me in return!

Dream Huntress, thanks for the video. It was funny and insightful. Funny how she said that Disney would be better if it took more risks and went different, but when Disney did that, they went downhill all the way to Home on the Range, so...yea.

5star wrote:Well, I'm glad its converted to what it is now. It has a whole lot more meaning to it compared to its source. Furthermore, it would have been too bland, and unappealing to alot of people who found this version interesting/good..

Also, walt is gone, without a clone. And I believe he would be very content to know his company making shit loads of money and brightening the disney name

But you didn't read my more Walt Disnyey-like version of the story where it is about the same entertainment and "meaning" of the movie you like, just with the beginning and ending fixed to be more like how Walt would have made them.

Walt is not alive now, but he made his movies a way that is know as what a Disney movie is, so to continue making movies in his name but make them far away from the kind of movies he made is very wrong, you see. All you have to do is watch Walt's movies to know how to make a Disney movie, so they can do it.