DVDizzy Forum

I dont at all understand how people believed the Voodoo was racist. Okay, a little, but it's a movie that's supposed to have magic in it and takes place in the 20th century when magic pretty much died in most people.

Sotiris wrote:What does it mean then? Just because artists pitch story ideas does not make the studio "director-driven". They also did that back in the 90s with Jeffrey Katzenberg. Remember the gong show? But it was Jeffrey Katzenberg and Peter Schneider who micro-managed and made most of the creative decisions. It seems that things haven't really changed since then. Regardless if this approach is successful or not, calling the studio "filmmaker-driven" is hardly accurate.

At the end of the day, animation is a collaborative effort. It cannot and will never be a single persons sole vision (possibly an exception for Snow White.) While the director may be "driving", they still have to follow the rules of the road. There will always be things they cannot do, and right now because of market trends, one of those things is, unfortunately, hand drawn animation.

Sotiris wrote:Lasseter only reports to Bog Iger and Alan Horn. And before Alan Horn was recently appointed, he didn't even report to the previous chairman of WDS, Rich Moore. Considering his influential position within the company, I don't think if Lasseter really wanted to make another hand-drawn film, anyone would stop him.

I'm sure you're right here. But put yourself in Lasseter's position here. Lets say, for the sake of this argument, that he wants nothing more in the world than to do another traditional film. But the past two, regardless of the multiple different reasons that we all know played a part, have not done well financially. I'm sure there is immense pressure on him about it already, and so it's either take the risk of having executives start to wonder if he really is the right man for this job, possibly putting his career on the line (or at least his position with WDAS), or wait a while and put it on the back burner for now, churn out a few more probable hits, and hope that maybe in a few years the negative stigma has been lifted (possibly with the help of the hybrid technique). It's a better career move, it's a better financial move, and while it maybe isn't preferable creatively, he's a smart man and he knows he has to weigh everything that goes into a decision like this. Can you really blame him for at least "shying away" from it for now? (Note that I said "for now". No one except you is claiming that hand drawn is "dead". Just that it isn't happening right this moment)

Sotiris wrote:It does. This new hybrid technique is basically a more advanced and sophisticated form of cel-shading. The animation is clearly driven by CG. Having said that, "Paperman" looks great and has a hand-drawn feel to it. But that doesn't mean that it can/should replace traditional hand-drawn animation. Why does it have to be the one or the other anyway? Why can't they pursue both?

Well first, I think that's a fairly cynical way of looking at it. Too much goes into it to call it any kind of cel-shading, sophisticated or not. There's a great level of artistry from the hand drawn artists here. That said, though... You're right that it would be nice to pursue both, but again, that would require an entire team that would rather do traditional...

Sotiris wrote:While I am sure that there's excitement for this new hybrid, I find it incredibly hard to believe that there aren't enough artists that would want to pursue a hand-drawn feature as well.

...and as hard to believe as it might be, I stand by it. While I obviously can't know what every artist at WDAS thinks (nor do I think I can speak for them - I'm simply making educated conclusions based on those I've talked to and met with), what I do know is that while I was at the studio, the artists talked about how, as 2d artists, they loved the fact that THEIR drawings were seen in the final image. If artists like Mario Furmancyzk and Hyun Min Lee, CalArts grads that have been doing hand drawn animation their entire career and have already made a name for themselves within the industry, are jumping on this, I think it's safe to say that others are as well. And of all the people that I go to school with that have seen it, there is a sudden surge in interest as to what internship programs Disney offers, because everyone wants to try it out. For me personally, I'm sure you've read my posts in other threads regarding my passion for hand drawn animation, how I spent the first two years of college stubbornly sticking my ground with hand drawn before reluctantly learning CG after the release of Tangled, as it has won me over at least some. If you had told me a year ago that something would come along that I would become MORE interested to try than traditional hand drawn animation, I would have laughed in your face. But (now let's fantasize here for a minute) lets say I graduate and get a job at Disney, and they give me a choice between working on the upcoming, completely traditionally hand drawn film, or the upcoming film that uses the hybrid... I would without a doubt go for the hybrid. I know my opinion means nothing compared to actual artists working at the studio, but I really don't think it would surprise anyone in the industry to learn that everyone who had previously stuck to 2d at Disney was singing a different song now. You have to keep in mind, while several artists that work at these studios are of course "fans" of animation... they are first and foremost "artists", and they are going to be drawn to something they feel is advancing the art of animation.

Like I've said though... Lets say they do work on some hybrid projects. I'm sure after a few years there will be a yearning for traditional animation again. It will come. Just give it time.

EDIT: Divinity, you have a good point that many of the artists that may have wanted to stick with traditional may have been let go after Pooh. Many of them are now at Dreamworks working on Shadow. But those who they didn't let go (read: the most talented artists who have been with the studio longest, in most cases), are jumping on the new technique. I think that's saying something.

Will this interest last? Who knows... but the fact that it's new brings about a lot of artificial excitement, on top of the real excitement. It's a chance to do something brand new, that has literally never been done before. Artists can't resist that. Like I said... just give it time.

SWillie! wrote:

Sotiris wrote:What does it mean then? Just because artists pitch story ideas does not make the studio "director-driven". They also did that back in the 90s with Jeffrey Katzenberg. Remember the gong show? But it was Jeffrey Katzenberg and Peter Schneider who micro-managed and made most of the creative decisions. It seems that things haven't really changed since then. Regardless if this approach is successful or not, calling the studio "filmmaker-driven" is hardly accurate.

At the end of the day, animation is a collaborative effort. It cannot and will never be a single persons sole vision (possibly an exception for Snow White.) While the director may be "driving", they still have to follow the rules of the road. There will always be things they cannot do, and right now because of market trends, one of those things is, unfortunately, hand drawn animation.

Sotiris wrote:Lasseter only reports to Bog Iger and Alan Horn. And before Alan Horn was recently appointed, he didn't even report to the previous chairman of WDS, Rich Moore. Considering his influential position within the company, I don't think if Lasseter really wanted to make another hand-drawn film, anyone would stop him.

I'm sure you're right here. But put yourself in Lasseter's position here. Lets say, for the sake of this argument, that he wants nothing more in the world than to do another traditional film. But the past two, regardless of the multiple different reasons that we all know played a part, have not done well financially. I'm sure there is immense pressure on him about it already, and so it's either take the risk of having executives start to wonder if he really is the right man for this job, possibly putting his career on the line (or at least his position with WDAS), or wait a while and put it on the back burner for now, churn out a few more probable hits, and hope that maybe in a few years the negative stigma has been lifted (possibly with the help of the hybrid technique). It's a better career move, it's a better financial move, and while it maybe isn't preferable creatively, he's a smart man and he knows he has to weigh everything that goes into a decision like this. Can you really blame him for at least "shying away" from it for now? (Note that I said "for now". No one except you is claiming that hand drawn is "dead". Just that it isn't happening right this moment)

Sotiris wrote:It does. This new hybrid technique is basically a more advanced and sophisticated form of cel-shading. The animation is clearly driven by CG. Having said that, "Paperman" looks great and has a hand-drawn feel to it. But that doesn't mean that it can/should replace traditional hand-drawn animation. Why does it have to be the one or the other anyway? Why can't they pursue both?

Well first, I think that's a fairly cynical way of looking at it. Too much goes into it to call it any kind of cel-shading, sophisticated or not. There's a great level of artistry from the hand drawn artists here. That said, though... You're right that it would be nice to pursue both, but again, that would require an entire team that would rather do traditional...

Sotiris wrote:While I am sure that there's excitement for this new hybrid, I find it incredibly hard to believe that there aren't enough artists that would want to pursue a hand-drawn feature as well.

...and as hard to believe as it might be, I stand by it. While I obviously can't know what every artist at WDAS thinks, what I do know is that while I was at the studio, the artists talked about how, as 2d artists, they loved the fact that THEIR drawings were seen in the final image. If artists like Mario Furmancyzk and Hyun Min Lee, CalArts grads that have been doing hand drawn animation their entire career and have already made a name for themselves within the industry, are jumping on this, I think it's safe to say that others are as well. And of all the people that I go to school with that have seen it, there is a sudden surge in interest as to what internship programs Disney offers, because everyone wants to try it out. For me personally, I'm sure you've read my posts in other threads regarding my passion for hand drawn animation, how I spent the first two years stubbornly sticking my ground with hand drawn before reluctantly learning it after the release of Tangled, as it has won me over at least some. If you had told me a year ago that something would along that I would become MORE interested to try than traditional hand drawn animation, I would have laughed in your face. But (now let's fantasize here for a minute) lets say I graduate and get a job at Disney, and they give me a choice between working on the upcoming, completely traditionally hand drawn film, or the upcoming film that uses the hybrid... I would without a doubt go for the hybrid. I know my opinion means nothing compared to actual artists working at the studio, but I really don't think it would surprise anyone in the industry to learn that everyone who had previously stuck to 2d at Disney was singing a different song now.

Like I've said though... Lets say they do work on some hybrid projects. I'm sure after a few years there will be a yearning for traditional animation again. It will come. Just give it time.

EDIT: Divinity, you have a good point that many of the artists that may have wanted to stick with traditional may have been let go after Pooh. Many of them are now at Dreamworks working on Shadow. But those who they didn't let go (read: the most talented artists who have been with the studio longest, in most cases), are jumping on the new technique. I think that's saying something.

Will this interest last? Who knows... but the fact that it's new brings about a lot of artificial excitement, on top of the real excitement. It's a chance to do something brand new, that has literally never been done before. Artists can't resist that. Like I said... just give it time.

Okay, I'll give them some time. Thanks SWillie. I think i should not visit that terrible animation guild blog anyway.

I don't think I agree that there aren't enough artists that want to do a hand drawn feature. I think there's plenty. The problem is that the industry is kinda backwards now. You almost have to have a film completed and ready to show. Its very hard to get full backing from any studio from the get go now. I think hand drawn could see a bit of resurgence in the form of crowed funding. John k is funding his next cartoon entirely through kickstarter this way, so there's obviously a demand for it, people want to do it, these things just take money and studios like Disney just have too many middlemen saying no and second guessing them all the time.

The Paperman technique looks absolutely stunning so far, I do think were going to be seeing more of this. But to suggest everyone is going to drop the traditional techniques is a bit of a stretch. Lets wait until after the first feature or so before we make that call.

ajmrowland wrote:I dont at all understand how people believed the Voodoo was racist. Okay, a little, but it's a movie that's supposed to have magic in it and takes place in the 20th century when magic pretty much died in most people.

I don't see how its even a little bit racist.

Kyle wrote:I don't think I agree that there aren't enough artists that want to do a hand drawn feature. I think there's plenty.

I maybe should have clarified - I of course agree that, in a broader sense, there are plenty of animators that would love the opportunity to work on a drawn feature. But I was speaking more specifically about artists AT Disney right now, who are around this new technique daily. They're going to be naturally drawn to it. No pun intended.

In a broader sense, though, yes... you're definitely right that crowd funding would be a great place to start. While I despise John K, I'm excited to see Minkyu Lee's film, Adam and Dog (even though it isn't a feature). https://vimeo.com/34849443

Can you really blame him for at least "shying away" from it for now? (Note that I said "for now". No one except you is claiming that hand drawn is "dead". Just that it isn't happening right this moment)

And the perception that hand-drawn is dead is as equally valid as your unsubstantiated perception that it isn’t. In fact, there’s much more weight for the “dead” considering there are no actual projects being worked on that are hand-drawn, and the hand-drawn film that was being worked was almost immediately turned into a 3D project following Tangled‘s release (Frozen). The M&C film that will supposedly be 2D is still up in the air. And, no, I don’t think a hybrid--much less a short at that--indicates a continued life for 2D.

I will give you that if that were the point, it would be a good strategy. That said, if that were Lasseter's strategy--why wouldn't he just say so? "Maybe in a few years, we'll be able to give 2D another go." But he doesn't make any kind of statement of any intent to give 2D more chances, and definitely not as something to be taken as seriously as a 3D project.

Moreover, I'm sure the hybrid being used on Paperman is also more interesting and exciting than 3D (which has been used for a vast number of films in the market at this point). But that doesn't mean artists suddenly want to dump their 3D projects. So, no, I don't really see that point as valid.

Disney's Divinity wrote: And, no, I don’t think a hybrid--much less a short at that--indicates a continued life for 2D.

Well, this is where we differ then. I think if hand drawn animation plays a significant part (which is does in this case), that indicates a continued life for 2D.

Disney's Divinity wrote:Moreover, I'm sure the hybrid being used on Paperman is also more interesting and exciting than 3D (which has been used for a vast number of films in the market at this point). But that doesn't mean artists suddenly want to dump their 3D projects. So, no, I don't really see that point as valid.

Umm... I think they probably do. I talked to a few CG animators who worked on Paperman, and one mentioned that people were trying to free up their schedules on Ralph so that they could squeeze in just one shot on Paperman. Another said, "I hand in my ugly animation, and then it comes back and is completely gorgeous!" I'm sure out of the upcoming films, the CG artists are most looking forward to the hybrid as well.

My point is that the fact that everyone wants to work on Paperman does not mean they would suddenly hate working on a 2D film any more than if they would hate working on a 3D film, when even 3D artists would prefer the hybrid right now. The hybrid is not a reason to exclude 2D anymore than it's a reason to exclude 3D; although, right now, only one is being excluded, and I don't agree that artists at Disney or elsewhere would want that.

Disney's Divinity wrote:My point is that the fact that everyone wants to work on Paperman does not mean they would suddenly hate working on a 2D film any more than if they would hate working on a 3D film, when even 3D artists would prefer the hybrid right now. The hybrid is not a reason to exclude 2D anymore than it's a reason to exclude 3D; although, right now, only one is being excluded, and I don't agree that artists at Disney or elsewhere would want that.

Well then I totally agree. I'm not trying to argue that anyone suddenly hates traditional. That would be silly. It's unfortunate that only 2D is being excluded, you're right, but it makes financial sense from a business standpoint (regardless of the "real" reasons why PatF and Pooh weren't successful). It sucks, but it's true. Hopefully it won't be that way for long.

SWillie! wrote:I'm sure there is immense pressure on him about it already, and so it's either take the risk of having executives start to wonder if he really is the right man for this job, possibly putting his career on the line (or at least his position with WDAS), or wait a while and put it on the back burner for now, churn out a few more probable hits, and hope that maybe in a few years the negative stigma has been lifted (possibly with the help of the hybrid technique).

But the thing is you're just assuming that's Lasseter's strategy. How do you know he'll decide to go back to hand-drawn features in a few years? That's just wishful thinking. All facts point to that he's no longer interested in producing hand-drawn features.

SWillie! wrote:It's a better career move, it's a better financial move, and while it maybe isn't preferable creatively, he's a smart man and he knows he has to weigh everything that goes into a decision like this.

Yes, it's a better career move and a financial move. No doubt about it. The truth is that most people in his position would've done the same. But that makes him no different than any other executive in Hollywood. Where's the risk-taking? Where's the creative vision?

What annoys me is that he's trying pass off this image of the Santa Claus of animation; that he's not like other executives, that he cares about the artists, that the studios are filmmaker-driven, an animator's haven etc. It just feels hypocritical and dishonest.

Here's some examples to illustrate what I mean:

Loves hand-drawn animation:
• stops producing hand-drawn features and shorts

Loves Ghibli films:
• stops distributing them

Filmmaker-driven studios:
• fires anyone who doesn't agree with him

Loves artists (free cereal, and scouters in the hallways!):
• Pixar violates antitrust laws to keep salaries low
• Pixar employees are paid less than other big studios
• Animators fired after the completion of every film at WDAS
• Unpaid overtime
• Unrealistic/hectic production schedules

Hates DTV sequels:
• produces endless series of spin-offs/sequels.

All facts point to that he's no longer interested in producing hand-drawn features.

I don't think any facts point to him no longer being interested. They all point to him making the decision not to. As I've said, there's a difference.

I guess all it comes down to is whether or not you believe his intentions are negative, or if his actions are due simply to good business decisions and the circumstances he is put in.

Based on the few people I've talked to that have met him (albeit briefly), they say that he seems like an extremely genuine guy. They say he's excited all the time about whatever is going on, and is always positive to be around.

At the end of the day I guess I'm judging more his character, while you're judging his actions. I think his heart is in it, and I think he has nothing but the best intentions. I think he's doing the best he knows how given the state of the industry, economy, and general position he has been put in, and I can't fault him for it, even if I do disagree with some decisions.

Edit: Some of the actions you've listed, while completely true, can't possibly be blamed solely on him. I know he's influential, but you can't blame him and only him the way you have been doing. That's simply not how it works. He doesn't go in there and say "today we're going to do something completely dastardly evil! And that's just the way it's gonna be!" Those actions are the result of a series of unfortunate decisions, made by probably many, many different people. I'm sure he can be included in that many, but he is not THE sole reason those things have happened. You're smarter than that.

SWillie! wrote:I don't think any facts point to him no longer being interested. They all point to him making the decision not to. As I've said, there's a difference.

Yes, you're right. Semantics. However, the result is the same.

SWillie! wrote:I guess all it comes down to is whether or not you believe his intentions are negative, or if his actions are due simply to good business decisions and the circumstances he is put in.

I also believe the latter. I don't think his intentions are negative or that he's part of some conspiracy theory. It's all about choices. He could've done the bold, risky thing but he prefered the more safe, conventional road. It's an understandable position. I simply disagree with his claims of him being something that he's not.

SWillie! wrote:Some of the actions you've listed, while completely true, can't possibly be blamed solely on him.

I'm aware of that. I've used those examples to underline that the conditions at the studios (whether he's to blame or not) are far from the ideal ones he constantly professes.

My two cents; 2-D animation is not dead for Disney. You watch; in the 2020's there will be another 2-D animted film you just need to wait.

Another idea however is wait for a new CEO to take office who will hopefully embrace 2-D animation.

Sotiris wrote:I've used those example to underline that the conditions at the studios (whether he's to blame or not) are far from the ideal ones he constantly professes.

Agreed. Hopefully that will change with future success, although the fact that Pixar doesn't sound to be in all that much better shape than WDAS, working conditions wise, doesn't bode well.

Sotiris wrote:
Here's some examples to illustrate what I mean:

Loves hand-drawn animation:
• stops producing hand-drawn features and shorts

Loves Ghibli films:
• stops distributing them

Filmmaker-driven studios:
• fires anyone who doesn't agree with him

Loves artists (free cereal, and scouters in the hallways!):
• Pixar violates antitrust laws to keep salaries low
• Pixar employees are paid less than other big studios
• Animators fired after the completion of every film at WDAS
• Unpaid overtime
• Unrealistic/hectic production schedules

Hates DTV sequels:
• produces endless series of spin-offs/sequels.

And at Imagineering

Loves the parks
* Mostly focused on bringing in more Pixar tie-ins

ajmrowland wrote:I dont at all understand how people believed the Voodoo was racist. Okay, a little, but it's a movie that's supposed to have magic in it and takes place in the 20th century when magic pretty much died in most people.

Guess because only the dark skinned characters were using it. The granny was dark skinned and the Witch Doc was dark skinned as well. That's the only reason I can think of here :/

If it was white people these same people would make claims of white supremacy or something. You cant win with some people.

Also, from what I can tell in my very brief googleing of it, white people don't have a lot of history with voodoo in the first place.

FlyingPiggy wrote:That he didn't understand Disney was DISNEY and not his personal Pixar 2.0 studio when he first got there and was forcing his personal tastes (i.e. Randy Newman) onto projects.

I don't agree with this at all. He understands Disney, it was his lifelong ambition to become a Disney animator, he went to Cal Arts and achieved that dream but was fired because he dared to try and make executives see the benefits of CG animation in the development of The Brave Little Toaster. And I thought Randy Newman created a very good soundtrack for PATF so I have no problem with Lasseter "forcing his personal tastes" onto a Disney project in that case.

FlyingPiggy wrote:But crap, look where the first few years landed 2D.

One of the first things he did was green-light a 2D film, he brought the two most respected and successful directors at WDAS in recent years back to the studio to direct it, they recruited back the talented artists who had been laid off when hand-drawn animation was officially killed off at the studio by Michael Eisner.

FlyingPiggy wrote:And another thing, he splits his time between Pixar and Disney. That must be a little annoying for the workers at both places, to have the overlord who must okay what you're working on gone half the time. But then I guess he'd have to give up his control over the parks and he looves his control over the parks

He was a Cast Member was Disneyland and has always professed his love of the parks so I imagine he would hate to give up his creative control of them. Why is that a problem? After the success of Car Land at Disney's California Adventure and the upturn in fortunes it has brought to that park, why would anyone want him to give up that control? I haven't heard any complaints about how Lasseter splits his time between the different departments he oversees, if you have have please correct me.

ajmrowland wrote:I dont at all understand how people believed the Voodoo was racist. Okay, a little, but it's a movie that's supposed to have magic in it and takes place in the 20th century when magic pretty much died in most people.

It wasn't the fact that Voodoo was racist, it was the fact that Voodoo is a real religion and that the movie misrepresented it. At least that's what I heard.

SWillie! wrote:

All facts point to that he's no longer interested in producing hand-drawn features.

I don't think any facts point to him no longer being interested. They all point to him making the decision not to. As I've said, there's a difference.

I guess all it comes down to is whether or not you believe his intentions are negative, or if his actions are due simply to good business decisions and the circumstances he is put in.

Based on the few people I've talked to that have met him (albeit briefly), they say that he seems like an extremely genuine guy. They say he's excited all the time about whatever is going on, and is always positive to be around.

At the end of the day I guess I'm judging more his character, while you're judging his actions. I think his heart is in it, and I think he has nothing but the best intentions. I think he's doing the best he knows how given the state of the industry, economy, and general position he has been put in, and I can't fault him for it, even if I do disagree with some decisions.

Edit: Some of the actions you've listed, while completely true, can't possibly be blamed solely on him. I know he's influential, but you can't blame him and only him the way you have been doing. That's simply not how it works. He doesn't go in there and say "today we're going to do something completely dastardly evil! And that's just the way it's gonna be!" Those actions are the result of a series of unfortunate decisions, made by probably many, many different people. I'm sure he can be included in that many, but he is not THE sole reason those things have happened. You're smarter than that.

A lot of one's character is judged by their actions.

Just because I seem genuine doesn't mean I am. Obviously there are many more factors in play, but what someone actually does, over what they say they'll do or pretend to be is more important.

So, whilst there are some debatable decisions on Sotiris' list, a lot of it is contradictory to what Lasseter says he's about. And since it's not a mere solitary transgression but many, it leads us to believe something is fishy.

Whilst I care less about 2D injustice than most of you, I do care about telling a good story, being honest and treating people with respect, and in those respects Lasseter seems to be spiralling into a tyrannical, hypocritical leader.