DVDizzy Forum

I think our differences of opinion regarding Disney's hiring practices are excellently paralleled by our different definitions of "nepotism."

Sotiris wrote:I like the villainess. She reminds me of the villain in the Firebird suite. I'm iffy about Moana's design. It looks like a watered-down version of Pocahontas. They could have done better. As usual, the CG model looks worse than the concept art.

I thought the same thing. The drawings of her with a necklace made her look just like a softer Pocahontas.

Sotiris wrote:It seems the songwriting team wasn't really the directors choice this time either.

Well, I doubt it would've been even if they went with the Lopezes. I'm still skeptical that M&C have a stronger reign over this than they did TP&TF, which Lasseter also meddled in, and if the FHarmony girl gets the role, that'll cinch it for me.

As for the current topic, I thought Disney sought out the team who created Little Shop of Horrors. They were hired pretty late into O&C, which is why Ashman could only write the lyrics for one song?--I doubt Menken could've done anything for the film at that point, since somebody else was already working on it. I don't think Menken needs to be retired from Disney to "give other people a turn." As far as I know, many other people had a turn while Menken was still working at Disney all these years. No, the reason he's been retired from Disney is because of Lasseter and nothing else. I wouldn't even doubt if M&C asked for him after working with him on most of their films, but were refused just like they were refused the opportunity to create a hand-drawn film. Which wouldn't be the first time Lasseter did that to them--does anyone believe they chose Randy Newman for TP&TF? As for that story UmbrellaFish mentioned about Menken, he thought he was going to be fired from creating the score--not the songs--which Ashman convinced him he was capable of doing though he had had reservations.

re: Dr. Facilier: Yeah, he's okay. He's the best this "era" of Disney has to offer thanks to Keith David and M&C, but I wouldn't rank him among Disney's strongest either.

Speaking of music, here's a snippet from what I'm assuming is Moana's opening song (at 19 seconds):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBEBpQDSwQE[/youtube]

love all the concept art! I think she looks good, I do see a bit of Poca and Mulan/Tiana(she has a bit of that Mark Henn face.) The piece with the volcano villainess looks amazing!(wonder if she'll have anything to do with Pele?)

thats the concept art, as for the CGi character renders? well, hard to really judge yet...so far they look, well, average... not horrid but...again its... another lost opportunity. Just like with Frozen...another film that could have been gorgeous and really special in 2d hopefully wont lose out much in its genericization to CGI...

btw the pig is adorable but it also kinda looks like a chihuahua, & I looove the rooster!

Disney's Divinity wrote:I don't think Menken needs to be retired from Disney to "give other people a turn." As far as I know, many other people had a turn while Menken was still working at Disney all these years. No, the reason he's been retired from Disney is because of Lasseter and nothing else.

It's painfully obvious by now that Menken has been ousted from WDAS because of Lasseter.

unprincess wrote:thats the concept art, as for the CGi character renders? well, hard to really judge yet...so far they look, well, average... not horrid but...again its... another lost opportunity. Just like with Frozen...another film that could have been gorgeous and really special in 2d hopefully wont lose out much in its genericization to CGI...

True. Characters designs especially of humans never translate as well in CG as they do in 2D.

UmbrellaFish wrote:

Sotiris wrote:Turns out Disney had offered Moana to the Lopezes but they could do it because they were working on Gigantic at the same time. They were the ones who "recommended" their friend Lin-Manual for the job. It seems the songwriting team wasn't really the directors choice this time either. It's nice to know that it's through nepotism that people get hired at Disney.

Well, it would be favoritism. Not nepotism. Lin-Manuel Miranda is not related to the Lopezes. Even then, it's a stretch to say a professional song writing team recommending another professional is favoritism as I'm sure the Lopezes had no input on whether he was actually hired or not, but hey, if you want to gripe about an imagined slight to Alan Menken, go ahead. Just remember, Menken got his start at Disney the same way when Howard Ashman recommended that Disney hire him for "The Little Mermaid."

Far more intrigued to see what Miranda can do for a Disney movie than I would be if I was hoping for another 90s retread that would inevitably disappoint. Not every "new" person would necessarily be good, but I think he's a very interesting choice.

Sotiris wrote:

Disney's Divinity wrote:I don't think Menken needs to be retired from Disney to "give other people a turn." As far as I know, many other people had a turn while Menken was still working at Disney all these years. No, the reason he's been retired from Disney is because of Lasseter and nothing else.

It's painfully obvious by now that Menken has been ousted from WDAS because of Lasseter.

unprincess wrote:thats the concept art, as for the CGi character renders? well, hard to really judge yet...so far they look, well, average... not horrid but...again its... another lost opportunity. Just like with Frozen...another film that could have been gorgeous and really special in 2d hopefully wont lose out much in its genericization to CGI...

True. Characters designs especially of humans never translate as well in CG as they do in 2D.

Then people would complain that Menken's work is not as good as his earlier ones like they did with Tangled.

Sotiris, you're making it sound like the Lopezes just recommended some bum off the street. Have you not googled Miranda's credits and accomplishments in the songwriting world? And if you have, how can you insultingly refer to him as a nodody? If you were to say you just don't like his songwriting, that's one thing, but you're coming off as someone who's focusing too much on Menken NOT being attached (was he ever attached or even rumored to Moana?) to see the HUGE win this is for WDAS...from a publicity level alone. Miranda has become one of the most celebrated talents in the entertainment industry. If he gets an Oscar for Moana, he will be the youngest EGOT winning songwriter.

LOL if he achieves EGOT status before Menken that will just make the diehard Menken loyalists even more angry, but I completely agree with your post. As a genuine Broadway buff (not just Disney), it's a little insulting to downplay Miranda's talent and accomplishments, as if the only worthwhile songwriters in the business are people who worked on Disney films in the 90s...

Tangled wrote:Speaking of music, here's a snippet from what I'm assuming is Moana's opening song (at 19 seconds):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBEBpQDSwQE[/youtube]

Surprised it has been published, I thought Disney were more secretive about it.

Btw, he forgot to say that Ohana means family as well! Sorry, but I couldn't resist

jazzflower92 wrote: Then people would complain that Menken's work is not as good as his earlier ones like they did with Tangled.

People have been doing that since TLM and B&tB. Aladdin wasn't as good, Pocahontas wasn't as good, etc. etc. It'll happen to the Lopezes, too, if they stay at Disney for several films in the future, which I expect.

As for Tangled's actual weaknesses, we know that was more to do with the directors not really wanting the film to be a musical. Whatever we may say, too, "I See the Light" was nominated for an Oscar. The Lopezes won for Frozen, but Frozen also won Best Animated Feature where Tangled wasn't even nominated, and he didn't banish Tangled's directors. Menken's score for the film is actually pretty good, from what I remember anyway.

I'm kind of annoyed at the fact that Moana is not set in a specific locale. Having the film set in a very broad and vague region of the South Pacific instead of a more specific place homogenizes the different cultures and customs of those territories and treats them as interchangeable and indistinguishable.

Disney's Divinity wrote:People have been doing that since TLM and B&tB. Aladdin wasn't as good, Pocahontas wasn't as good, etc. etc.

That's true. The music for "B&tB" and "Aladdin" were always compared to "TLM" on their releases by the critics. So was "Pocahontas", "Hunchback" and "Hercules" (but it baffles me with the case of Hunchback, since it's a daring score with sinister chorus, which definitively should make people notice). Musker and Clements even mentions it on the Audio Commentary for "TLM".

As for Tangled's actual weaknesses, we know that was more to do with the directors not really wanting the film to be a musical. Whatever we may say, too, "I See the Light" was nominated for an Oscar. The Lopezes won for Frozen, but Frozen also won Best Animated Feature where Tangled wasn't even nominated, and he didn't banish Tangled's directors. Menken's score for the film is actually pretty good, from what I remember anyway.

I think the problem with Tangled's music is the constant comparison and expectations to his former work. "I See The Lights" and "Healing Incarnation" were good, but not great enough to measure to his former work. I thought the score was generic as well. Not lackluster, but simply not great (but at least superior to the awfully generic score from "Frozen").

PatrickvD wrote:I like how Moana looks more curvy than other princesses. But it is suspicious that that is apparently how Disney sees Polynesians/Hawaiians since Lilo & Stitch is the only other film with a curvy female lead (Nani).

I would say Nani's body is moreso the result of Sander's stylization. Everyone in the film looks a bit thicker.

Polynesians really are generally larger though, and I'm saying this as someone who lives in Hawaii. (Not to mention, the top three fattest nations in the world are islands in the Pacific.) This was what I wanted the most out of Moana's character design and I'm glad they delivered.

Sotiris wrote:I'm kind of annoyed at the fact that Moana is not set in a specific locale. Having the film set in a very broad and vague region of the South Pacific instead of a more specific place homogenizes the different cultures and customs of those territories and treats them as interchangeable and indistinguishable.

This has been bugging me too.

People getting hired onto productions in Hollywood because of a friend's recommendation is nothing new. Just recently, Colin Treverrow was hired to direct Jurassic World because Brad Bird personally introduced him to the producers and said he was the right guy for the job. Though him having critical success with Safety Not Guaranteed helped a bit, too.

As the saying goes, "It's who you know." Though much like Bird and Treverrow, I don't think the Lopezes would have recommended Miranda if they didn't think her material was good.

So are Ron Clements and John Musker still set to direct this movie?

...or did they leave Disney too?

Semaj wrote:So are Ron Clements and John Musker still set to direct this movie?

...or did they leave Disney too?

There are pictures in this very thread that show Ron and John presenting the film. They're obviously still directing it.

Well, for all the flack Disney has received for only having skinny female leads, they can finally rejoice for having a large female lead (though we should count Nani).

Sotiris wrote:I'm kind of annoyed at the fact that Moana is not set in a specific locale. Having the film set in a very broad and vague region of the South Pacific instead of a more specific place homogenizes the different cultures and customs of those territories and treats them as interchangeable and indistinguishable.

they're choosing more generalized interpretations of geographical/cultural regions because its easier. They dont have to worry about making sure they're 100% accurate to the specific region/culture and if they make a mistake or receive any criticism they can use "its a fictional place!" as an excuse.

today's Disney, unlike 90s Disney, is all about making animation production as easy as possible...

unprincess wrote:

Sotiris wrote:I'm kind of annoyed at the fact that Moana is not set in a specific locale. Having the film set in a very broad and vague region of the South Pacific instead of a more specific place homogenizes the different cultures and customs of those territories and treats them as interchangeable and indistinguishable.

they're choosing more generalized interpretations of geographical/cultural regions because its easier. They dont have to worry about making sure they're 100% accurate to the specific region/culture and if they make a mistake or receive any criticism they can use "its a fictional place!" as an excuse.

today's Disney, unlike 90s Disney, is all about making animation production as easy as possible...

Yeah, that's part of what made Disney's animated features of the 90's so admirable, because the animators actually did research trips to all the different cultural settings of their films:

Africa (The Lion King)

Paris (Hunchback of Notre Dame)

Greece (Hercules)

China (Mulan)

Hawaii (Lilo & Stitch)

...and so on.