DVDizzy Forum

Here's one of the most common issues with believes...

This is a Christian woman...

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This is an Atheist woman...

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In terms of beliefs, they couldn't be further apart. BUT, they have one thing in common... They are both extremists. They both take their beliefs too far. And most importantly, they give their faiths a bad name.

An atheist person looks at the god warrior and he/she things that religion makes people crazy. While a religious person sees the "most hated woman in America" and thinks that atheists are elitist, arrogant and condescending. This ends up harming more people than any of the "evils" each side proclaim exists.

Extreme measures is always a problem, no matter if its politics, religion, life styles, social rights etc. Yes, you HAVE the right to express your thoughts and beliefs. But if you go too far with it you will alienate more people and have more enemies to your cause than allies.

I say be happy with your beliefs and if you want to share it with others fine. Just don't expect anyone to accept them right away, and if they don't either stop the conversation before it gets heated (that's what I do) or don't resort to shoving it down their throats. Because then you either have people thinking you are a relative of the God warrior or the most hated woman in America.

No, pap64, you can't equate both of those women. To do so is an exaggerated attempt to be "balanced" and to cast "both sides" as being "equally bad". This is something the mainstream media do all the time nowadays: they bring in a rational person and a crazy person into a debate on a certain issue (say, health care) and they give both people the same amount of time. They treat the crazy person's opinion as equally viable and valuable as the rational person's opinion.

And it simply is not true.

The "christian warrior" woman is a yelling, raving lunatic; a mad person who scares the hell out of every person who has ever had a sane thought. The "most hated woman in America" makes several coherent, reasoned and logically build and structured arguments. Now you don't have to agree with anything she says. I would have said the same thing if she used calm reasoning to defend religion. But she is *not* a raving, ranting, over-emotional wreck, like the "christian warrior" is.

To say they can somehow be equated, is false.

And I said that without regard to which side I agree with. Now I'm going to take that into account as well. She fought to end the coercive prayer and recitement of Biblical texts in schools. That means that she fought for the seperation of church and state. That's a very patriotic thing to do, because she was fighting for the Constitution. And even if you're a Christian, you should applaud that, and not try to trash this highly intelligent woman by comparing her to some empty-headed screaming lady on 'Wife Swap'.

Siren wrote:Ummm...anyone who believes any of those is an imbecile. All those things can be PROVEN FACT.

Notice that I made a big mistake: I said that people who believe the earth revolves around the sun are wrong. But obviously, I wrote it down wrong, because the earth *does* revolve around the sun. I meant to say: people who believe the sun revolves around the earth are wrong.

Siren wrote:But you can't prove God doesn't exist. No more than you can prove Bigfoot doesn't exist.

And that is literally what I said in the part of my post which you didn't quote.

Siren wrote:Of course what you'd deal with is probability. You can prove the earth is round. Be it by sailing the oceans or looking at it from space.

And yes, that is exactly what people CAN say...not should. Its of course your business to say it how you feel, but don't get your panties in a bunch because people get upset with how you are stating their beliefs are fairy tales. No one is asking you to believe it, but it would be polite of you not to belittle others because they don't agree with you. Atheists get enough stereotypes at being @$$holes towards those who are religious. Don't feed into that. We got enough Penn and Tellars of the world.

What part of my post which you (conveniently) didn't quote didn't you understand? Because, all the things that you say here, I said it before. We're actually in agreement.

Understood Goliath.

Pap64...OMG< thank you for that! I forgot about the dork-sided Wiccans

This is also another extremist. Its people like this that hurt the normal Christians.

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The Phelps clan in general are a bunch of nutcases. They protest anything (Funerals, American Idol Concerts, Children's Plays) and everything and are easy to sot with their brightly colored "GOD HATES FAGS!" "GOD HATES AMERICA" "GOD HATES YOU" "THANK GOD FOR DEAD SOLDIERS" signs.

Not to mention the fact that they run the godhatesfags.com website which has a running counter of the days since hate crimes victim Matthew Shepard was murdered and apparently "Entered Hell".

Those people are sick.

Siren wrote:Understood Goliath.

Pap64...OMG< thank you for that! I forgot about the dork-sided Wiccans

This is also another extremist. Its people like this that hurt the normal Christians.

Urgh, I hate watching this stuff because it gets me so mad afterwards!! However, the lady hosting the news was amazing.

Widdi wrote:The Phelps clan in general are a bunch of nutcases. They protest anything (Funerals, American Idol Concerts, Children's Plays) and everything and are easy to sot with their brightly colored "GOD HATES FAGS!" "GOD HATES AMERICA" "GOD HATES YOU" "THANK GOD FOR DEAD SOLDIERS" signs.

Not to mention the fact that they run the godhatesfags.com website which has a running counter of the days since hate crimes victim Matthew Shepard was murdered and apparently "Entered Hell".

Those people are sick.

I absolutely agree! I am proud we have freedom of speech, until the haters come around. Those people are disgusting. They raise their children to be so hateful. But I guess we can all at least be comfortable knowing one fact...when they die, they are in for a shock. There is no heaven for them.

Hey, after watching that last video, it gave me a link to some related ones, and I found this one, I don't know if anyone's seen it before, but I thought I'd post if for those who haven't.

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It just goes to show you how the teachings can be confusing and even hypocritical. On one hand, they teach you to be kind and respectful towards your fellow man. Well, it seems this only applies to NORMAL people, because anyone that is gay, buddhist, jewish, Islamic, atheist etc. etc. instead gets abused, insulted and eve murdered in the name of God. So what are they preaching?

Also, if they want to convert more people into religion I seriously doubt that carrying hate messages into very personal and sad events like a Funeral is going to help the cause .

Speaking of which, I just remembered one "recruiting" tactic I personally dislike... Shock education.

You know those religious comics where they have one teaching and explain how most people are wrong about it? My biggest issue with them is that they show an EXTREMELY exaggerated view on religion. The ignorant are TRULY ignorant, the bad guys are so bad they make Disney Villains look tame in comparison and the righteous people are so good they just need a halo and wings to complete the look. Then they try to make you feel guilty about it and convince you that their religion can solve it.

Shock education, in general, is the lowest way to convince people to join your plight. They exaggerate events and give out false facts and they show it in a shocking way so they ensure a reaction (many activists groups do this and I personally can't stand it). It paints people who believe in that religion to be above everyone and its pretty painful to see.

LOL

My ONLY problem with it...I do think it could add to the stigma being gay is all about sex. There are gay couples are are raising children and are a normal American family in every way, except, they are both male or female. That's one of the reasons I loved the movie Birdcage. It showed a gay couple raising a boy who ended up being straight. Afterall...where do gay people come from? Straight parents. But I guess this whole discussion is better off in the gay thread

Widdi wrote:The Phelps clan in general are a bunch of nutcases. They protest anything (Funerals, American Idol Concerts, Children's Plays) and everything and are easy to sot with their brightly colored "GOD HATES FAGS!" "GOD HATES AMERICA" "GOD HATES YOU" "THANK GOD FOR DEAD SOLDIERS" signs.

Not to mention the fact that they run the godhatesfags.com website which has a running counter of the days since hate crimes victim Matthew Shepard was murdered and apparently "Entered Hell".

Those people are sick.

Yeah, I remember that. Thanks for reminding me of how sickening some people are.

Reading a lot of people's thoughts and some of it is very nice to hear and think about and even feel better because of.

Lazario, from the thread that Julian made wrote:The absolute most hypocritical view related to abortion is that

taking a human life is any worse or more serious than that of an animal. Especially since humans cause the most

damage / bring on the most destruction, and therefore, are a much higher threat to the environment via

overpopulation. But when animals overpopulate, it's okay to hunt, shoot, and kill them. I have already completely

come to terms with my view on eating meat. It's a tradition with people who like meat, the meat I eat doesn't

necessarily have to come from an overpopulated species or area of land. So when a human embryo is aborted, there is

no cause for me to say - wait, ho - hey, that's not okay, that's much worse than shooting an animal with survival

skills and a working-sense of it's own instinctive behaviors. That's why overall, I consider the termination of

embryos and fetai (spell?) to be a private matter. If it wasn't the mother's decision, via- miscarriage, it's sad or

tragic. But still, no one should take the right away from the woman, for any reason. That is one of life's most

basic, elemental truths. Since we can't vote on forcing men to have or not have vasectomies, we can't force women to

not have abortions. It's as simple as that - you don't want someone telling you what you have to do with your body.

And that right can never EVER be taken away. No argument, no discussion - period. And no pro-life anything can mess

with that. Some things must always be considered on some level sacred. This is that.

Oh, I'm so glad that he said the part I bolded. Anyway, the point is is that human life is sacred, and must always be so. And we are sacred and special from the moment of birth, not when we have developed or whatever. Now, some of you may joke about how you are so much more valuable now that you are developed and an adult, but don't you think you were valuable and should have been allowed to live from the moment you, well, lived? Yes, people are more sacred than animals. And no, not just because they can do more things. And you know, if you think animals are just as sacred, fine, don't kill them either, then.

Goliath, the reason it is not hypocritical to believe in the Bible and have religious beliefs be why you are against abortion is because even if God did kill those people for those reasons you say, that is still killing people that have had the chance to live and do the things that they are killed for. They did things, and that is why they were killed. Unborn children are not aborted because of anything they did.

Also, if it's alive, um, it's life. Its human, and it's alive, it's human life that you are killing if you abort it. Also, yes, babies cannot live without their mother, but they can't live without people even after they are born! That goes for any child as well. In fact, that is true for many of anyone today. Most of us couldn't live on our own without people... And then of course, the oldest and most developed of people, seniors, cannot live without others' help...

As for the whole enforcing your views on others, well...everyone, think about it. If you believe something bad will happen to people if they don't believe and do certain things, or if you think the one who created everyone should get the respect and love they deserve...then, well, you should not never attempt to tell people and encourage them to believe in something for good and happiness.

Oh, and by the way, you can prove God exists. There's the Bible, though Goliath will say it was all written just by men, they didn't get that from anywhere, so here is at least how it is proven that a God, or a creator, exists. We exist, and everything and anything exists. We didn't come from nothing. And if you do think something came from nothing, well then, I just might have to use the word idiot in that case. So, atheists, um, yea, might be that word... Though, hey, why not, let's believe we all just sprang into existence to die and not be in existence anymore. Yea. That's a good theory. There's no force/power that made everything come into existence. Yea. Nothing made it able to happen. Yea.

Disney Duster wrote:Goliath, the reason it is not hypocritical to believe in the Bible and have religious beliefs be why you are against abortion is because even if God did kill those people for those reasons you say, that is still killing people that have had the chance to live and do the things that they are killed for. They did things, and that is why they were killed. Unborn children are not aborted because of anything they did.

All those people that supposedly got wiped out by God in the Old Testament didn't "do" anything, beside believing in another God. God in the OT is a jealous, petty being. More evidence that the stories are written by men; they are injected with little human emotions, unworthy to a supreme being.

Disney Duster wrote:Oh, and by the way, you can prove God exists.

No. Otherwise it would've been done.

Disney Duster wrote:There's the Bible, though Goliath will say it was all written just by men, they didn't get that from anywhere, so here is at least how it is proven that a God, or a creator, exists.

No, they made those stories up because they needed a history for their people and an explanation for everything they didn't know (like, how the universe came into being). As I demonstrated, a lot of stories are recycled from older faiths.

Disney Duster wrote:We exist, and everything and anything exists. We didn't come from nothing. And if you do think something came from nothing, well then, I just might have to use the word idiot in that case. So, atheists, um, yea, might be that word... Though, hey, why not, let's believe we all just sprang into existence to die and not be in existence anymore. Yea. That's a good theory. There's no force/power that made everything come into existence. Yea. Nothing made it able to happen. Yea.

Why is that more ridiculius than believing an incompetent, egomaniacal father figure created everything thousands of years ago, who watches everything we see, say or think? And if we don't do as he says, we will burn for all eternity?

I mean, you got NOTHING to stand on! Your ridiculisation of atheism is too pathetic for words. Your only 'argument' is: "it can't be!" Well, why CAN'T it? Why DOES everything have to have a reason?

I agree with Goliath on the point about proving God's existence. There is no proof. Unless he comes down from Heaven and goes all Morgan Freeman on us, there is no proof.

Look at it from a Douglas Adams point of view:

• "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
  
  "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."
  
  "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
  
  "Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

Gotta love those rationalist/fideist paradoxes.

albert

I havent had the time lately to keep up on here but I have tried to catch up a little. I was going to make some responses but I think I will make one...one that comes from a realization that came after reading recent posts in this thread.

When you take God ....and Faith out of the picture.....you pretty much have nothing to stand on. You are your own God.....and you are not accountable to anyone or anything but yourself. There is no right or wrong except what you believe is right or wrong. You cant believe in anything you cant see because thats just silly. You can however convince yourself into believing and justifying anything.... like killing unborn children and walk away believing you havent taken a human life. You can fool yourself into blocking out the real truth and the real facts and ignoring your conscience. I mean.....we are only animals who have evolved by chance with no real purpose after all. We arent part of a greater calling or purpose. We are just here....a freak accident of nothingness. And yea....when you take God out of the picture believing there could be anything greater then you out there is laughable. These religious people must be real idiots!!!! A creator? Somone greater then ourselves? RIGHT! Oh look here...there is an example of a religious fanatic or a person here who uses their faith to descriminate and cut people down. Lets just generalize the entire group together and conclude that religion is evil and makes no positive contribution to society. Since they are being a hypocrit their God and their beliefs all must be corrupt. Sure there are thousands of good religious people who do a world of good ....for every 1 religious fanatic who doesnt use their faith in a positive way......... but lets just ignore that and generalize everyone instead of looking at the individual and judging each person by their own actions and life.

I personally am a Christian but I also want to be seen and judged as an individual just like I try to do with each of you. If you are an athiest I expect you to realise that just as another athiests actions or beliefs dont exactly represent yours....dont hold the actions and beliefs of some of my fellow Chrstians over my head. The core of Christianity is to follow the loving example of Christ.

I dont believe the way I believe because it feels good or because I have been brainwashed. Just take a look around at this world and the sky and the stars...the ocean....the animals, a blade of grass or a flower... and most of all ....the people around you. THERE is where I see proof of God. There is where I see His hand at work in this world and in my own personal life. It takes MUCH more faith to believe that all of this was an accident then it takes to believe that there was a greater hand at work in the creation of this world and universe. For me its more convincing to believe that we have a purpose in this life rather then we exist for no other reason but to exist..... and its more realistic to believe that we were designed in the image of God rather then morphed from an animal. I also see evidence of God thru prayer. I hear a lot of people wonder why god nolonger talks to us. My response would be ....when is the last time you opened your heart to him and listened? When is the last time you prayed and invited God to work in your life? When you are able to do that ....evidence will be there. I also am very convinced of an after life....and not just because the bible told me so. We see evidence of life after death on this earth and so many different stories to support it. I also believe in Evil which is the opposite of all things good and of God.....and there is plenty of evidence of it on this earth as well. Anyway my point is there IS proof and evidence of God if you look for it. If you are a person of faith... you arent blindly following something that was created to control people so please dont continue thinking that because I can tell you its simply not true. Many (and I would like to think most) Religious people actually DO see evidence of their faith in their lives. Many of us do have a reason to believe....

Goliath wrote:

Disney Duster wrote:Goliath, the reason it is not hypocritical to believe in the Bible and have religious beliefs be why you are against abortion is because even if God did kill those people for those reasons you say, that is still killing people that have had the chance to live and do the things that they are killed for. They did things, and that is why they were killed. Unborn children are not aborted because of anything they did.

All those people that supposedly got wiped out by God in the Old Testament didn't "do" anything, beside believing in another God. God in the OT is a jealous, petty being. More evidence that the stories are written by men; they are injected with little human emotions, unworthy to a supreme being.

Oh my Golitah, it seems you have forgotten that if you don't believe in anything or a right or wrong answer, who's to say those emotions are little and that a supreme being can't have them? It makes perfect sense that if we are made in the image of God, God would be like us too, and all emotions are something pretty special to have. And yes, those people still did something, they believed in and worshipped a false, other god, as I remember, when told not to, so that's disobedience as well, and that is quite doing something.

Goliath wrote:

Disney Duster wrote:Oh, and by the way, you can prove God exists.

No. Otherwise it would've been done.

Yes, there is, because I did!

Goliath wrote:

Disney Duster wrote:There's the Bible, though Goliath will say it was all written just by men, they didn't get that from anywhere, so here is at least how it is proven that a God, or a creator, exists.

No, they made those stories up because they needed a history for their people and an explanation for everything they didn't know (like, how the universe came into being). As I demonstrated, a lot of stories are recycled from older faiths.

No, you didn't prove any of that. A flood happened. I already explained it makes sense that other people, even ones who wrote it down first, gave names to the being who caused the flood and the people involved in the flood and altogether gave their own version of the story, even though it's quite possible the most accurate version was written in the Bible. And it certainly would make sense that people would call the creator and others by different names as every culture has different names for everything.

Goliath wrote:

Disney Duster wrote:We exist, and everything and anything exists. We didn't come from nothing. And if you do think something came from nothing, well then, I just might have to use the word idiot in that case. So, atheists, um, yea, might be that word... Though, hey, why not, let's believe we all just sprang into existence to die and not be in existence anymore. Yea. That's a good theory. There's no force/power that made everything come into existence. Yea. Nothing made it able to happen. Yea.

Why is that more ridiculius than believing an incompetent, egomaniacal father figure created everything thousands of years ago, who watches everything we see, say or think? And if we don't do as he says, we will burn for all eternity?

Easy, Goliath, we exist, so something made us happen. We didn't make ourselves happen, there's something higher and more powerful than us. There I proved it once again.

Goliath wrote:I mean, you got NOTHING to stand on! Your ridiculisation of atheism is too pathetic for words. Your only 'argument' is: "it can't be!" Well, why CAN'T it? Why DOES everything have to have a reason?

That was never my argument, I don't know what you're talking about there, though if maybe not everything needs to have a reason, everything still needs to have an ability to be, and so then where did our and everything's ability to exist and um, be here doing this right now and everything come from? But oh, I have so much to stand on, as I proved! Actually, I have everything to stand on, because everything in the universe and all of existence is proof and what I stand on.

The ironic thing is, it is atheists who have NOTHING to stand on, because they believe in NOTHING. And despite proof of otherwise (um, there's much more than SOMETHING that exists!)

a-net fan: You basically just said that only people who believe in God can be good people. All other people are potential killers, who have no moral compass. That's what you say. And you have every right to your supremist delusions. But I have also the right to state that, to anyone with half a functioning braincell, you are a complete moran for saying such things. You clearly don't know anything about ethics or morality. I advice you to stay clear of those topics, before you make an ever bigger fool of yourself.

Siren wrote:I agree with Goliath on the point about proving God's existence. There is no proof. Unless he comes down from Heaven and goes all Morgan Freeman on us, there is no proof.

And now that we're on the subject: why doesn't he just do that and get it all over with? I mean, he could literally stop all the religious wars and terror acts right now if he just came down and told us what the deal is.

Isn't it awfully weird that the last person he ever reveiled himself to was living, like, 2000 years ago, and he hasn't contacted us since? Why do we think he cares about us, then? Maybe he has found a new hobby? Why does he need us to believe in him in the first place? I mean, he's a supreme being! What does he cares if a person believes in him or not? Is he insecure?

Disney Duster wrote:And yes, those people still did something, they believed in and worshipped a false, other god, as I remember, when told not to, so that's disobedience as well, and that is quite doing something.

So with God, you get whiped out of existence if you don't believe in him? And you think that's okay?

I hate to think that our world was created by a genocidal monster. Charles Taylor is soon getting tried for his genocidal acts. When will your God stays trial?

Disney Duster wrote:

Goliath wrote: No. Otherwise it would've been done.

Yes, there is, because I did!

I won't reply to you again --EVER. You're a crazy nut.

According to the Bible, God gave us free will. That is why he isn't here now. We aren't suppose to see God till the prophecies in Revelations comes true. If your atheist, that can seem very convenient. If you are Christian, he is keeping his promise.

Of course that doesn't cover all religions. And many religions aren't out to prove it their god/goddess exists. I really don't care if you believe me. I believe what I do for ME, no one else. IMO, it seems only those religions based on the Bible are all out for recruiting and calling themselves each the one and only true religion. You don't see Wiccans knocking on doors, Hindu's going on missionaries, or Buddists in the streets protesting abortion or gays. Maybe its just me, but it seems to me a lot of the Pagan and Eastern religions could give a flying fig about what the world thinks of their religion. So long as they have their right to worship their own way, they are happy. They don't tell others to pray to their gods to get a golden ticket to their heaven.

IMO...I wish all religions acted that way. Minded their own business, stayed happy being who they are and what they believed in, and stopped bothering the rest of us. No more Jehovah Witnesses knocking at my door at 10AM on a Saturday, no more Christians telling me I need to be born again, or I'd go to hell. Frankly, I was born just fine the first time. But the Bible makes it clear to recruit more believers. If you think of it...Jesus is the most successful cult leader. And don't take that wrongly. I know cult is a four letter world in our culture, we think Hal Bop comet and drinking the koolaid, but bare bones, a cult is new religion started by, an often charismatic leader who convinces people to forget their religion and join him. And he was very successful as Christianity is one of the top religions worldwide, and for the most part, a very good religion. Most religions are mostly good. Its only the extremists who taint it. Or the stereotypical Bible-thumping, shove-it-down-your-throat wanna-be preachers that make the rest of us get annoyed. And that goes for all Bible-based religions. Its amazing how many religions started from one book.

But back to the first paragraph....Maybe one day we will find there is only one God and I was wrong. Maybe one day God and Goddess will show themselves and prove you were wrong. Or maybe the Flying Spaghetti Monster will show himself and prove us all wrong. Till then, I'll keep on doing my spells, because it makes me feel happy and comfortable.

I believe both secular humanism and hypocritical religion are dissaproved by God. Wide and spacious is the road leading to destruction while narrow is the road leading off into life, so said Jesus.

oh wow lol at all the religious discussion. Before I came to this thread I figure majority here was Christian. LOL.


I'm agnostic, I think there's probably a One-Above-All being or such but I don't conform to any religion itself. Great thing about being agnostic is that you can believe in you own views and format how things come to be. You don't have to conform to a religion that already has sets made out for you. That's the problem that lies in organize religions more so in Christianity and Islam than the others. When you have organize religion, usually more often than not, you will have bunch of people that will misuse it due to what ever scripture or "law" that seems to indicate and thus have crazy shit like some of those video posted above.

I mean who cares if someone gay or someone has different view points and shit. It's not my business and I don't really care to bother.

In my view if there is a God or whatever it is, It probably doesn't give a crap about us or bother to care. It created what needs to be done and let the rest cycle on it's own by laws of physic and etc. I mean to it, we're probably nothing more than insignificant grain of particle dust to this entity. Other than that I don't really need focus my attention to a supreme being. I want look into other things out there.

Siren, I agree with a lot of your points. (LOL I almost always do.)