DVDizzy Forum

I see your point PapiBear, I don't think it is a good way to start off that whole black princess thing go with a white prince or something. It should just be of the same ethnicity...I promote interacial relationships also, but the message you pointed out could be taken the wrong way...as In "she has to marry a white guy in order to be a princess."

As for the whole thing of the "correct" Princesses and having a true monarchy, Disney never really does follow that line with the Princess thing anyways...otherwise Mulan, Pocahontas, Esmerelda, and all those other non-born into royality Princesses wouldnt exist. So I think its prefectly fine if they randomly come up with some sort of Black King and Queen thing, and made up New Orleans story with Princes and Princesses. There still gunna include her in that Princess line no matter what...so yeah I just consider them to all be in the Disney atmospheric thing goin on.

The way I see The Frog Princess...I would want it to be like...Spoild Black Princess turns into frog, finds true love, learns happy lesson, becomes a princess again..the end...but not so bare boned lol. And a lot more deep...I actually don't want the whole Ethnicity thing to play a big role...cause Disney movies never really show racial differeces...except for Pocahontas but hey that turned out to be a great movie.

The End.

-Jeremy88

I haven't read all the details about the Frog Princess, but from what I HAVE heard/read/seen, I have a very good feeling about it so far.

And I don't think we'll ever get rid of racism as long as people are searching for things to be offended about. Finding something completely positive, like an interracial couple in a Disney film, to be "a slap in the face" is only adding to the problem. There have been a lot of shots at Disney over this film, and it hasn't even come out yet (anyone see that bit on the Daily Show?). It's no wonder it has taken Disney this long to come out with a black princess.

slave2moonlight wrote:And I don't think we'll ever get rid of racism as long as people are searching for things to be offended about.

It's comments like these that assure you that racism will never go away, because when the people who face racism daily aren't listened to, the problem can never be truly solved.

You actually think that racism exists because people are looking for things to be offended about? Why would anyone deliberately WANT to be offended? Explain the thought processes involved with that to me, please.

Do you also think the poor choose to be poor (yeah, poverty's a regular barrel of laughs), and that the ancestors of all the Black people here chose to be slapped in chains and dragged here, denied their names, languages, and cultures, ripped from their families, raped, whipped, beaten, overworked, fed pig entrails and murdered when they protested?

slave2moonlight wrote:Finding something completely positive, like an interracial couple in a Disney film, to be "a slap in the face" is only adding to the problem.

Oh, so I should just sit by quietly while my Black brothers are being ignored and disrespected, as long as you get your Disney princess, is that what you're telling me? So basically, then, Black men, and their opinions and feelings, don't matter? Is that the core of your argument? Nice.

slave2moonlight wrote:There have been a lot of shots at Disney over this film, and it hasn't even come out yet (anyone see that bit on the Daily Show?). It's no wonder it has taken Disney this long to come out with a black princess.

Yeah, what a favor they're doing us all. I mean, hey, what's with all these uppity and ungrateful negroes, right? They should be thankful we even let them have a princess in the first place! Right?

Right?

This just proves my point about how some people are seeking to be offended. There are legitimate things to be offended about out there, so crying wolf is never a good idea. But, to respond to your attacks:

PapiBear wrote:It's comments like these that assure you that racism will never go away, because when the people who face racism daily aren't listened to, the problem can never be truly solved.
You actually think that racism exists because people are looking for things to be offended about? Why would anyone deliberately WANT to be offended? Explain the thought processes involved with that to me, please.

No, I said we will never get rid of it. I didn't say that was why it exists. That is PART of the problem today though. As for why people would WANT to be offended, there are plenty of reasons. Attention, sympathy, power, etc... We live in a world where people are now terrified of offending each other to a ridiculous level. And, seriously, taking offense at an interracial couple in a film sounds more like racism to me than making a film with an interracial couple in it.

PapiBear wrote:Do you also think the poor choose to be poor (yeah, poverty's a regular barrel of laughs), and that the ancestors of all the Black people here chose to be slapped in chains and dragged here, denied their names, languages, and cultures, ripped from their families, raped, whipped, beaten, overworked, fed pig entrails and murdered when they protested?

These are outrageous and generalizing comparisons. I'm tempted to rebutt, but really, they're too ridiculous to bother.

PapiBear wrote:
Oh, so I should just sit by quietly while my Black brothers are being ignored and disrespected, as long as you get your Disney princess, is that what you're telling me? So basically, then, Black men, and their opinions and feelings, don't matter? Is that the core of your argument? Nice.

You shouldn't take it as disrespectful at all. Why should it be? This is like saying anytime someone dates outside of their own race, they're being disrespectful to their own race. They're being disrespectful to racist, racial boundaries. We should start viewing each other as the human race, not in shades of skin. This is what I'm talking about.

PapiBear wrote: Yeah, what a favor they're doing us all. I mean, hey, what's with all these uppity and ungrateful negroes, right? They should be thankful we even let them have a princess in the first place! Right?

Right?

If that's the way you feel. But that's not the way I feel, and I think I've made that clear.

slave2moonlight wrote:This just proves my point about how some people are seeking to be offended. There are legitimate things to be offended about out there, so crying wolf is never a good idea.

I see. So, the opinions of Black men and Black women (because Black women are also offended by this film's script, as I will share with you shortly) are illegitimate and amount to nothing more than "crying wolf." Hmm.

slave2moonlight wrote:But, to respond to your attacks:

PapiBear wrote:It's comments like these that assure you that racism will never go away, because when the people who face racism daily aren't listened to, the problem can never be truly solved.
You actually think that racism exists because people are looking for things to be offended about? Why would anyone deliberately WANT to be offended? Explain the thought processes involved with that to me, please.

No, I said we will never get rid of it. I didn't say that was why it exists. That is PART of the problem today though. As for why people would WANT to be offended, there are plenty of reasons. Attention, sympathy, power, etc...

So, which specific reason would the average Black person have to be offended by this story?

Someone offends someone else, and the offended party says "I find that offensive," but the offending party says "you're just looking for attention, power, and sympathy, so I don't have to listen to you." The offended party says "I'm still offended." The offending party says "So what? You don't matter. I'm going to do what offends you anyway, because I like it. And I'm more important than you, and I'm better than you, and I'm in greater numbers than you! So get over it!"

slave2moonlight wrote:We live in a world where people are now terrified of offending each other to a ridiculous level.

Yeah, y'know? It's such a shame. Back in the good old days, them minority folks knew their place, and we could be offensive toward them and not think twice about it. But now we do, and boy, is it a pain to deal with. I wish it was the old days, ma. We had it good then. Nobody complained about anything we did. We just did what we did and said what we said, and if somebody didn't like it, they kept their mouths shut. And life was good for us because of that.

slave2moonlight wrote:And, seriously, taking offense at an interracial couple in a film sounds more like racism to me than making a film with an interracial couple in it.

A film that supposedly takes place in early 20th century New Orleans, where an interracial couple was a couple that was soon put in jail if not murdered. It's not a story of a 21st century interracial couple hanging out at Starbucks and pondering their futures while sipping Frappuccinos and listening to their iPods and text messaging their diverse group of friends on their Razrs.

But, you know, like you've made clear, the opinions of Black folk don't really matter to you, so you don't need to worry your pretty little head about it now, y'hear?

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote:Oh, so I should just sit by quietly while my Black brothers are being ignored and disrespected, as long as you get your Disney princess, is that what you're telling me? So basically, then, Black men, and their opinions and feelings, don't matter? Is that the core of your argument? Nice.

You shouldn't take it as disrespectful at all. Why should it be?

Have you ever, in your life, been overlooked and ignored? Seriously, have you? Because if you haven't, then you won't be able to understand what it's like. If you have, then why are you asking this question?

slave2moonlight wrote:This is like saying anytime someone dates outside of their own race, they're being disrespectful to their own race. They're being disrespectful to racist, racial boundaries.

You're not hearing me. As I stated before, I have absolutely no problems with real life interracial relationships, and have been in several most of my adult life. Interracial dating is not the issue. The issue is the story and character choices being made by Disney for what is, as they are advertising, their first attempt to tell an African American story.

Within the context of this African American story (a historical fantasy piece, if you will), there is a Black princess, but no Black prince. Why? There's a Black male villain. Ohhhhhh..... I guess that's OK, to have a Black man be a villain. But not a prince. Oh, no, never a prince.

What's the message you're sending when you do that? That a little Black girl can be a princess - but only if she marries a handsome white prince - and that a little Black boy can't be a prince - only a bad guy.

Yet one more attack on Black malehood and upon young Black boys. One more thing that will instill self-hatred. One more thing to groom them for prison fodder. Don't tell me this isn't happening. I see it happening in my community, in my state (same as yours), and nationwide.

Do you understand the power of media? Do you understand what media does and can do to young minds?

Don't be dismissive of this, please.

slave2moonlight wrote:We should start viewing each other as the human race, not in shades of skin. This is what I'm talking about.

What we should do and what we actually do are two different things. Instead of being all enamored of We-Are-The-World colorblind fantasies, I'm dealing with the real world and what's really going on in young Black minds (and in young minds of other colors as well - don't think that your kids won't get subliminal messages from this film as well). That's my concern - what we're telling our kids, all our kids, with this kind of story.

Again, it's not that I have a problem with Disney portraying an interracial romance. I don't. I have a problem with them portraying that as their first African American story. Because then it's not an African American story, it's an interracial story.

You never answered my question: Why couldn't the African American girl meet up with a handsome African prince, where they really do have princes and princesses and kings and queens, and have had such for centuries?

Why does there always have to be a white character involved? Why can't it be an exclusively Black cast of characters? Plenty of other Disney films have had exclusively white casts of characters. Why is that okay and an exclusively Black cast isn't?

You know why.

PapiBear wrote:(because Black women are also offended by this film's script, as I will share with you shortly)

And here it is.

This is an email that's circulating around the net:

Date: Mar 27, 2007 1:10 AM
Subject: Open Letter To Disney From A Concerned Parent - ABOUT THE FROG PRINCESS
To: [Disney Executive]

Dear [Disney Executive],

I am appalled and disturbed that Disney decided to make this animated film showcasing the "first black princess" in such a racist fashion! Let me tell you in how many ways this script is offensive:

1. Let's start with the title- which subliminally implies that our Black princess is ugly and that she must be rescued in some way to be worthy of "Princessdom" i.e., the flipside to kissing many frogs to find the true prince.

2. It's set in New Orleans in a post-slavery era but not post-Jim Crow era; enough that "Maddy" must still work cleaning white people's houses and tending to their privileged spoiled daughter?

3. What type of name for a Black child is Maddy unless again it's a subliminal play on the word "mammy"?

4. The character Dr. Duvalier just happens to be the Voodoo villian similar to the Haitian dictator of the same name, thereby villifying the Haitian religion of Voodun as well as causing angst and the return of unpleasant memories to the many Haitian people who suffered cruelly at the hands of the Duvalier administration and its Ton-ton Macout.

5. Prince Harry - The EUROPEAN WHITE PRINCE with whom Maddy falls in love with? This is doubly offensive in that our Black children must be subconsciously subjected to the mindset that a Black man is not good enough to be a prince and therefore cannot rescue one of his own from the plantation.

Not to mention the fact that in an era where Black women were routinely seen as less than human and raped at will by white men (wealthy landowners as well as poor), your writers had the audacity to make the prince white? Quadroons, mulattos, and octoroons were all labels & terms coming out of the South made up by the white establishment to further define the racist caste system they had going particularly in New Orleans . These unions of Black & white were normally NOT consensual on the Black women's part.

6. This whole script sounds like an animated remake of the movie "Gone With The Wind" which I can assure you most Black people did not care for regardless of the strides Ms. Hattie McDaniel made for Black actors and actresses during her time. Chambermaid/wet nurse was the only role she WAS ALLOWED to portray.

7. Here it is 2007 and with all the education & knowledge that I'm sure the Disney writers have collectively, they couldn't pull from ANYWHERE in African history to portray a more postive role model of an African Princess and Prince and their families?!

This entire movie is a slap in the face to Black people across the entire diaspora and if Disney does not make significant modifications to this script- you can rest assured that I and others will make sure this movie, its marketing spinoffs and your sponsors do not make a dime off of this blatantly foul production!

Sincerely,
Caron Grantham

I'm telling ya, Disney better do some MAJOR rewrites before they get this whole show underway, or they're risking a major boycott.

PapiBear wrote: I see. So, the opinions of Black men and Black women (because Black women are also offended by this film's script, as I will share with you shortly) are illegitimate and amount to nothing more than "crying wolf." Hmm.

Your attacks so largely consist of taking my statements out of context and putting words in my mouth that are clearly not what I have said. It's not a very strong debating style. First of all, I don't buy the idea that every black person agrees with you and is offended by the plot of this film. That would be a pretty big assumption. And I never said that "the opinions of black men and women are illegitimate and are nothing more than crying wolf." However, I do feel that people sometimes do cry wolf, and I believe that happens a lot with racial issues today.

PapiBear wrote: So, which specific reason would the average Black person have to be offended by this story?

Someone offends someone else, and the offended party says "I find that offensive," but the offending party says "you're just looking for attention, power, and sympathy, so I don't have to listen to you." The offended party says "I'm still offended." The offending party says "So what? You don't matter. I'm going to do what offends you anyway, because I like it. And I'm more important than you, and I'm better than you, and I'm in greater numbers than you! So get over it!"

Are you serious? We can't have a society where an individual's opinion on what is or is not "offensive" sets the law of the land. We'd have no art, books, films,.. we'd have nothing! It simply doesn't work. This is the big PC problem we have in the U.S. today. We have to use common sense on these things. Some people find nearly everything offensive.

PapiBear wrote: Yeah, y'know? It's such a shame. Back in the good old days, them minority folks knew their place, and we could be offensive toward them and not think twice about it. But now we do, and boy, is it a pain to deal with. I wish it was the old days, ma. We had it good then. Nobody complained about anything we did. We just did what we did and said what we said, and if somebody didn't like it, they kept their mouths shut. And life was good for us because of that.

I hope you realize how ridiculous you're making yourself sound...

PapiBear wrote: A film that supposedly takes place in early 20th century New Orleans, where an interracial couple was a couple that was soon put in jail if not murdered. It's not a story of a 21st century interracial couple hanging out at Starbucks and pondering their futures while sipping Frappuccinos and listening to their iPods and text messaging their diverse group of friends on their Razrs.

But, you know, like you've made clear, the opinions of Black folk don't really matter to you, so you don't need to worry your pretty little head about it now, y'hear?

*sigh* I repeat my previous statement. I hope you realize how ridiculous you're making yourself sound.

PapiBear wrote: Have you ever, in your life, been overlooked and ignored? Seriously, have you? Because if you haven't, then you won't be able to understand what it's like. If you have, then why are you asking this question?

I'm sure most people have felt that at some point. I definitely have. I live in a hispanic community and am half hispanic and half white. I have yet to find a community I am really welcomed into. There's still no reason to be offended by a mixed race couple in a film. I'm sorry. Nothing but racism can fuel that.

PapiBear wrote: You're not hearing me. As I stated before, I have absolutely no problems with real life interracial relationships, and have been in several most of my adult life. Interracial dating is not the issue. The issue is the story and character choices being made by Disney for what is, as they are advertising, their first attempt to tell an African American story.

Within the context of this African American story (a historical fantasy piece, if you will), there is a Black princess, but no Black prince. Why? There's a Black male villain. Ohhhhhh..... I guess that's OK, to have a Black man be a villain. But not a prince. Oh, no, never a prince.

What's the message you're sending when you do that? That a little Black girl can be a princess - but only if she marries a handsome white prince - and that a little Black boy can't be a prince - only a bad guy.

Yet one more attack on Black malehood and upon young Black boys. One more thing that will instill self-hatred. One more thing to groom them for prison fodder. Don't tell me this isn't happening. I see it happening in my community, in my state (same as yours), and nationwide.

Do you understand the power of media? Do you understand what media does and can do to young minds?

Don't be dismissive of this, please.

Oh, I'm hearing you loud and clear. And, believe me, I'm usually the last one defending the media. But the statements above come from a mindset that sees everything as an attack. After all, why can't a black princess marry a white prince? That makes a stronger statement about racial equality to me than a black princess and a black prince, and I believe that was more likely what the filmmakers were thinking. What you don't understand is that I (and I think most of the media) feel we should be erasing those racial lines. It's one thing to have pride in your racial history, but we need to stop seeing ourselves as separated by race in today's society. And so the film takes place in the 20's. It's a fairytale. With people turning into frogs, it's already not historically accurate.

As for things like this grooming young boys for prison fodder, that is something I don't buy into. I'm sorry, but I don't see the lack of a black prince in a Disney cartoon as one of the causes of children becoming criminals. It would be nice if Disney films were more diverse, but this should be seen as a solid first step.

slave2moonlight wrote:We should start viewing each other as the human race, not in shades of skin. This is what I'm talking about.

PapiBear wrote: What we should do and what we actually do are two different things.

Yes, but if we don't start taking the right attitude up on an individual basis, we'll never get there as a group.

PapiBear wrote: Instead of being all enamored of We-Are-The-World colorblind fantasies, I'm dealing with the real world and what's really going on in young Black minds (and in young minds of other colors as well - don't think that your kids won't get subliminal messages from this film as well). That's my concern - what we're telling our kids, all our kids, with this kind of story.

Living in the real world, I agree with that (maybe not the subliminal messages part). But I don't think getting angry about a mixed-race couple makes sense.

PapiBear wrote: Again, it's not that I have a problem with Disney portraying an interracial romance. I don't.

Could have fooled me. That's what we've been discussing this whole time.

PapiBear wrote: I have a problem with them portraying that as their first African American story. Because then it's not an African American story, it's an interracial story.

This sounds like nit-picking to me. I haven't heard it called an African American story, I've only heard it called their first African American princess. However, it's possible I just didn't read some of the stuff you have read. Even still, the lead character is African American, so what's wrong with calling it an African American story? It's an African American's story, no matter what sort of relationship she gets involved in, so I can see them calling it an African American story. As long as they're not advertising it as Disney's first African American Couple, or African American Romance, or something like that. We can't deny this princess's African American heritage just because she ends up with a white prince, after all.

PapiBear wrote: You never answered my question: Why couldn't the African American girl meet up with a handsome African prince, where they really do have princes and princesses and kings and queens, and have had such for centuries?

It's no different than asking, "Why can't she be with a white prince?" We are striving for a society where our children don't see each other by color. I believe that's what they are trying to do with this film. Television has been trying to use this tactic for years now on kids' programming to fight racism, and I believe it has had some positive effects, however small. Believe me, I don't think the racist white folks of the world are going to be happier with the film because she marries a white prince. They would probably like that even less.

PapiBear wrote: Why does there always have to be a white character involved? Why can't it be an exclusively Black cast of characters? Plenty of other Disney films have had exclusively white casts of characters. Why is that okay and an exclusively Black cast isn't?

You know why.

Yes, because that was the past, and we are trying to move past that. Not to mention the fact that New Orleans has a mix of different races. If an all-white cast seems racist, can't you see that an all black cast is no different?

Well, I highly doubt a petition like that is going to encourage Disney to continue making films with black characters. Let's go over it slowly.

Dear [Disney Executive],

I am appalled and disturbed that Disney decided to make this animated film showcasing the "first black princess" in such a racist fashion! Let me tell you in how many ways this script is offensive:

1. Let's start with the title- which subliminally implies that our Black princess is ugly and that she must be rescued in some way to be worthy of "Princessdom" i.e., the flipside to kissing many frogs to find the true prince.

Well, let's keep in mind that the better known story this title brings to mind is "The Frog Prince," which is a story that usually depicts a white prince changed into a frog. The prince is considered ugly only when he's a frog. Most people are familiar with this story if they are familiar with fairytales. So, upon hearing the title "The Frog Princess," an uninformed person would first assume that it was a story about a beautiful princess changed into a frog, NOT that the princess is ugly. That's a good example of searching for something to be offended about.

As for the first black Disney princess being the Frog Princess, that likely came about when trying to think up a new fairytale to do. Fairytales are Disney's best bet for success, as are princesses. They haven't done the Frog Prince, but better for them if they make the Frog Prince a Princess. But Shrek's success indicated that people like twists to their fairytales, so how do they make "The Frog Princess" even more unique? They bring it to New Orleans, a place that has gotten a lot of media attention lately, is more identifiable to the American public, and has a lot of frogs. So, now you have the Frog Princess story set in New Orleans. But, hey, this is Disney's opportunity to have their first African American princess, as New Orleans has a large African American population. Likely, the arrival of an African American Disney Princess in New Orleans that is "The Frog Princess" came about through some sort of combination of what I just described, rather than a conspiracy theory. Hey, I usually like conspiracy theories, and there are several I believe might be true, but this one doesn't seem strong enough.


2. It's set in New Orleans in a post-slavery era but not post-Jim Crow era; enough that "Maddy" must still work cleaning white people's houses and tending to their privileged spoiled daughter?

This is an age-old fairytale technique. Think of "Cinderella," the most beloved fairytale of all-time. It is a way to get sympathy for the main character. There is nothing unusual or suspicious about a lead female in a fairytale starting off in an unpleasant life.

3. What type of name for a Black child is Maddy unless again it's a subliminal play on the word "mammy"?

This is a stretch. "Subliminal" pleas are usually a stretch. The interesting thing about coincidences like this is that people usually only pick up on them when they are pointed out. This is like the complaint people had about the priest's knee in the Little Mermaid, or so many other "subliminal things" put into Disney films.

4. The character Dr. Duvalier just happens to be the Voodoo villian similar to the Haitian dictator of the same name, thereby villifying the Haitian religion of Voodun as well as causing angst and the return of unpleasant memories to the many Haitian people who suffered cruelly at the hands of the Duvalier administration and its Ton-ton Macout.

Most people find Voodoo to be a creepy and mysterious thing, and it's a logical thing to have in a film set in New Orleans. These films are aimed at the general public, not specifically folks with an in depth knowledge of Haitian culture and history.

5. Prince Harry - The EUROPEAN WHITE PRINCE with whom Maddy falls in love with? This is doubly offensive in that our Black children must be subconsciously subjected to the mindset that a Black man is not good enough to be a prince and therefore cannot rescue one of his own from the plantation.

There's that concept again. "Subconciously." Sorry, but that doesn't fly in the real world. Look, films with either all black casts or all white casts are not the answer. Trying to get even with a history of all-white casts by having an all-black cast doesn't make any sort of positive statement. This was likely both an attempt to depict New Orleans as diverse, and an attempt to make a "race shouldn't divide us" statement to the little kiddies watching.

Not to mention the fact that in an era where Black women were routinely seen as less than human and raped at will by white men (wealthy landowners as well as poor), your writers had the audacity to make the prince white? Quadroons, mulattos, and octoroons were all labels & terms coming out of the South made up by the white establishment to further define the racist caste system they had going particularly in New Orleans . These unions of Black & white were normally NOT consensual on the Black women's part.

Okay, there's some history for you. But, again, this is a fairytale for little kids of TODAY. It's not about historical accuracy, it's about telling a story with some style (which is likely part of why New Orleans was chosen). This is yet another complaint about a white prince, this time citing the time period. I still say they decided to make the prince white to show that race should not be an issue between two people. But, maybe it was just so Maddy could end up in a big, European castle like the other princesses, purely for marketing purposes. That still doesn't reek of racist conspiracy.

6. This whole script sounds like an animated remake of the movie "Gone With The Wind" which I can assure you most Black people did not care for regardless of the strides Ms. Hattie McDaniel made for Black actors and actresses during her time. Chambermaid/wet nurse was the only role she WAS ALLOWED to portray.

Hmm, that sounds like a big stretch. I don't remember an African American girl changing into a frog and marrying a white prince in Gone With the Wind.

7. Here it is 2007 and with all the education & knowledge that I'm sure the Disney writers have collectively, they couldn't pull from ANYWHERE in African history to portray a more postive role model of an African Princess and Prince and their families?!


Okay, here's the problem. This makes the assumption that Disney first decided, "Let's make a black princess movie." I sincerely hope they first said, "Let's do the frog Prince/Princess," and after setting it in New Orleans, decided it was a good opportunity to have an African-American princess. It certainly would not be a good thing if the entire film came about from a desire to make a black princess. I hope the story was the main thing. As people have said on this site before, "It would be great if they finally had a black princess, but they shouldn't make a movie just for the sake of having one."

Slave2moonlight, you have wowed me with your knowledge and determination to defend your beliefs and get your ideas across. Very honorable and admirable. I agree with all you have said, you write very well!

Anyway, if the first black princess only married a black prince, wouldn't people complain that Disney only wants people to be with their own race?

Perhaps Disney should think a few more things through, and it's good to get feedback from everyone who has problems with the film early on so Disney can decide if changes need to be made. Maybe they need to come up with a new name for the princess, but aside from that I don't really see much more need for changes.

By the way, from the list of characters:

[DR. DUVALIER] A 30-40 year old Voodoo magician/fortune teller. African American. Charming, charismatic, smooth and a sinister bad guy. Theatrical and grandiose. Dialect: Elegant, possibly New Orleans Creole.
[MAMA ODIE] An elderly, 200 year old Voodoo priestess/fairy god-mother. African American. Broad, comic, eccentric. Benevolent, wise and all knowing. A mixture of Moms Mabley & Yoda. Dialect: Southern colloquial.

There is voodoo done by an antagonist and voodoo done by a protagonist in this picture, so there shouldn't be claims that voodoo is only performed by the villain and makes voodoo look bad.

Thanks, Disney Duster. I don't know if Disney could ever change this film enough to please everyone. Then again, it seems many of their animated films have been attacked in one way or another, often for things that really weren't that deserving of it.

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote: I see. So, the opinions of Black men and Black women (because Black women are also offended by this film's script, as I will share with you shortly) are illegitimate and amount to nothing more than "crying wolf." Hmm.

Your attacks so largely consist of taking my statements out of context and putting words in my mouth that are clearly not what I have said. It's not a very strong debating style. First of all, I don't buy the idea that every black person agrees with you and is offended by the plot of this film. That would be a pretty big assumption.

I didn't say that EVERY Black person agreed with me. Yes, stating such would be a big assumption. But I didn't state that. I said that Black men and Black women were offended. Not just a few of them, either. You made the assumption that I was claiming that every Black person agreed with me.

slave2moonlight wrote:And I never said that "the opinions of black men and women are illegitimate and are nothing more than crying wolf." However, I do feel that people sometimes do cry wolf, and I believe that happens a lot with racial issues today.

We're not talking about "a lot of racial issues," we're talking about this film, and its reception within the Black community. Please don't try and obfuscate this by referring to various and sundry unrelated situations.

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote:So, which specific reason would the average Black person have to be offended by this story?

Someone offends someone else, and the offended party says "I find that offensive," but the offending party says "you're just looking for attention, power, and sympathy, so I don't have to listen to you." The offended party says "I'm still offended." The offending party says "So what? You don't matter. I'm going to do what offends you anyway, because I like it. And I'm more important than you, and I'm better than you, and I'm in greater numbers than you! So get over it!"

Are you serious? We can't have a society where an individual's opinion on what is or is not "offensive" sets the law of the land.

I didn't say anything about "the law of the land." This isn't about any squelching of your 1st Amendment right to say whatever you like, no matter who you hurt.

I maintain that you are not really hearing me. You're reading the words, but you're not even trying to understand.

slave2moonlight wrote:We'd have no art, books, films,.. we'd have nothing! It simply doesn't work.

Wow, really? So, your culture's artistic endeavours depend upon the denigration of other peoples and cultures? And to say "this is offensive to me and disrespectful to my people" is to upset your entire cultural balance? What kind of culture do you have when it requires you to offend others without remorse?

slave2moonlight wrote:This is the big PC problem we have in the U.S. today. We have to use common sense on these things. Some people find nearly everything offensive.

Sure, some people do, but when ordinary people find something offensive, is it actually offensive, or are they just imagining it? See, you don't get to pick and choose what's offensive for someone else. If someone tells you that you've offended them, do you stand around arguing with them and telling them they're imagining things, or do you apologize and try to understand what it was you did that offended them, so you can refrain from making the same mistake in the future?

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote: Yeah, y'know? It's such a shame. Back in the good old days, them minority folks knew their place, and we could be offensive toward them and not think twice about it. But now we do, and boy, is it a pain to deal with. I wish it was the old days, ma. We had it good then. Nobody complained about anything we did. We just did what we did and said what we said, and if somebody didn't like it, they kept their mouths shut. And life was good for us because of that.

I hope you realize how ridiculous you're making yourself sound...

I'm only reflecting back to you how you're coming across.

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote: A film that supposedly takes place in early 20th century New Orleans, where an interracial couple was a couple that was soon put in jail if not murdered. It's not a story of a 21st century interracial couple hanging out at Starbucks and pondering their futures while sipping Frappuccinos and listening to their iPods and text messaging their diverse group of friends on their Razrs.

But, you know, like you've made clear, the opinions of Black folk don't really matter to you, so you don't need to worry your pretty little head about it now, y'hear?

*sigh* I repeat my previous statement. I hope you realize how ridiculous you're making yourself sound.

Ah, yes, of course. Sidestep the question entirely. Don't deal with the issue, worry more about me. Tell me I'm the problem instead. Yes, much better tactic.

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote:Have you ever, in your life, been overlooked and ignored? Seriously, have you? Because if you haven't, then you won't be able to understand what it's like. If you have, then why are you asking this question?

I'm sure most people have felt that at some point. I definitely have. I live in a hispanic community and am half hispanic and half white. I have yet to find a community I am really welcomed into. There's still no reason to be offended by a mixed race couple in a film. I'm sorry. Nothing but racism can fuel that.

Did you see the part where I said that I don't have any problem with interracial relationships, and that I even promote them? Did you? I mean, really, did you read that part? Because I don't think it sank in.

The issue - AGAIN - is not whether interracial relationships are good or bad. The issue is how Black children view themselves in the world, and media's role in developing children's self-image. You're completely unaware of this, and completely unsympathetic to it.

Take a look at this film, "A Girl Like Me", from 17 year old filmmaker Kiri Davis. This speaks to the very issue I'm talking about.

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote: You're not hearing me. As I stated before, I have absolutely no problems with real life interracial relationships, and have been in several most of my adult life. Interracial dating is not the issue. The issue is the story and character choices being made by Disney for what is, as they are advertising, their first attempt to tell an African American story.

Within the context of this African American story (a historical fantasy piece, if you will), there is a Black princess, but no Black prince. Why? There's a Black male villain. Ohhhhhh..... I guess that's OK, to have a Black man be a villain. But not a prince. Oh, no, never a prince.

What's the message you're sending when you do that? That a little Black girl can be a princess - but only if she marries a handsome white prince - and that a little Black boy can't be a prince - only a bad guy.

Yet one more attack on Black malehood and upon young Black boys. One more thing that will instill self-hatred. One more thing to groom them for prison fodder. Don't tell me this isn't happening. I see it happening in my community, in my state (same as yours), and nationwide.

Do you understand the power of media? Do you understand what media does and can do to young minds?

Don't be dismissive of this, please.

Oh, I'm hearing you loud and clear. And, believe me, I'm usually the last one defending the media. But the statements above come from a mindset that sees everything as an attack. After all, why can't a black princess marry a white prince? That makes a stronger statement about racial equality to me than a black princess and a black prince, and I believe that was more likely what the filmmakers were thinking. What you don't understand is that I (and I think most of the media) feel we should be erasing those racial lines. It's one thing to have pride in your racial history, but we need to stop seeing ourselves as separated by race in today's society. And so the film takes place in the 20's. It's a fairytale. With people turning into frogs, it's already not historically accurate.

As for things like this grooming young boys for prison fodder, that is something I don't buy into. I'm sorry, but I don't see the lack of a black prince in a Disney cartoon as one of the causes of children becoming criminals. It would be nice if Disney films were more diverse, but this should be seen as a solid first step.

I'm talking to a wall. You clearly have no idea what I'm talking about, because you're not a part of the community I'm in. Worse, you're not even making an effort to understand the viewpoint. You're too busy parroting the colorblind party line.

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote: What we should do and what we actually do are two different things.

Yes, but if we don't start taking the right attitude up on an individual basis, we'll never get there as a group.

You know, as long as human beings continue to speak different languages, we'll also get nowhere as a group. Should we have just one world language and eliminate all the others? What about religion? What about political parties? Just one size fits all, for the world? (Don't bother answering. I know you won't understand this at all.)

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote: Instead of being all enamored of We-Are-The-World colorblind fantasies, I'm dealing with the real world and what's really going on in young Black minds (and in young minds of other colors as well - don't think that your kids won't get subliminal messages from this film as well). That's my concern - what we're telling our kids, all our kids, with this kind of story.

Living in the real world, I agree with that (maybe not the subliminal messages part). But I don't think getting angry about a mixed-race couple makes sense.

I'm not "angry about a mixed-race couple." I said that I don't think that it's the smart move for Disney to make for their first effort at telling an African American tale, and I explained my reasons for this, which you've very conveniently ignored. I believe that Disney is sending dangerous messages to not only Black children, but to all children, by going about this the way they are. This is not a simplistic matter of stating whether interracial relationships are bad or good. Disney is hesitant, perhaps even loathe, to portray Black love. Why? They've never been hesitant or loathe to portray white love, Arabic love, or Asian love.

It's clear to me that Black children's self-image is less important to you than your own personal entertainment. As long as you're entertained, who cares what damage is done to Black children, right?

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote: Again, it's not that I have a problem with Disney portraying an interracial romance. I don't.

Could have fooled me. That's what we've been discussing this whole time.

No, that's what you've been talking about. Next time, read what's written. You talk to me about finding racism in everything, but look what you're doing. You're being defensive because you think I'm attacking interracial relationships, because you're the product of one. Understandable position to take if that's what I was doing, but I'm not. This isn't about you.

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote:I have a problem with them portraying that as their first African American story. Because then it's not an African American story, it's an interracial story.

This sounds like nit-picking to me. I haven't heard it called an African American story, I've only heard it called their first African American princess. However, it's possible I just didn't read some of the stuff you have read. Even still, the lead character is African American, so what's wrong with calling it an African American story? It's an African American's story, no matter what sort of relationship she gets involved in, so I can see them calling it an African American story. As long as they're not advertising it as Disney's first African American Couple, or African American Romance, or something like that. We can't deny this princess's African American heritage just because she ends up with a white prince, after all.

Yeah, God forbid Disney should actually have an African American Couple and depict an African American Romance. That would just be intolerable. Especially for the first Disney movie to feature an African American lead character.

You know, last year's Something New wasn't much of a hit with Black audiences. Ever stopped to read any of the opinions on it from Black America? Ever cared what Black folks thought of it? I doubt it.

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote: You never answered my question: Why couldn't the African American girl meet up with a handsome African prince, where they really do have princes and princesses and kings and queens, and have had such for centuries?

It's no different than asking, "Why can't she be with a white prince?"

Actually it's very different, because Disney's NEVER HAD A BLACK PRINCE FOR ANY OF ITS PRINCESSES BEFORE, so there's nothing else to compare it to. Why won't they give their first Black princess a Black prince? They gave every single one of their white princesses a white prince. What are they afraid of?

If Disney wants to play the diversity game with its animated princesses, let them do it with one of their white princesses first. Pair a white princess up with a Black prince. Think that'd go over well in Peoria? You know there'd be an outcry.

Black people are not lab rats for white people to perform experiments on, social, cinematic, or otherwise.

slave2moonlight wrote:We are striving for a society where our children don't see each other by color.

What do you mean "we"? Not everyone is striving for this. There's a big difference between not discriminating against others based on ethnicity or race and recognizing ethnic and cultural differences, respecting them, and appreciating them. You're not going to achieve racial harmony when you force others to toe a colorblind line where racial and ethnic differences supposedly don't exist because you claim they're not there, even when they are there.

slave2moonlight wrote:I believe that's what they are trying to do with this film. Television has been trying to use this tactic for years now on kids' programming to fight racism, and I believe it has had some positive effects, however small. Believe me, I don't think the racist white folks of the world are going to be happier with the film because she marries a white prince. They would probably like that even less.

You're making this film sound like an experiment in social engineering rather than a fairy tale. Also, you're basically saying that it's okay that there are all these white princesses with white princes, and an Arabic princess with an Arabic prince, and a Chinese princess with a Chinese prince - those are all A-OK. But when it's time for a Black princess, oh wait, we can't pair her up with a Black prince - one of her own - suddenly now we have to be all diverse and colorblind and - hey, let's pair her up with a white prince!

You. Are. Not. Listening.

Black people, like all people, want to see themselves reflected in stories, films, plays, TV shows, etc. That's not happening with this story. We're getting an imbalanced, skewed, one-sided story. A partial, distorted reflection. And you're defending that.

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote: Why does there always have to be a white character involved? Why can't it be an exclusively Black cast of characters? Plenty of other Disney films have had exclusively white casts of characters. Why is that okay and an exclusively Black cast isn't?

You know why.

Yes, because that was the past,

Which is when the story takes place.

slave2moonlight wrote:and we are trying to move past that.

We are? We're trying to move past the past by pretending the past is the present? Or does time have no meaning in Disney animation all of a sudden? If so, I want a non-linear Disney animated film, like Pulp Fiction.

slave2moonlight wrote:Not to mention the fact that New Orleans has a mix of different races. If an all-white cast seems racist, can't you see that an all black cast is no different?

So the all-white casts can stay, but the all-Black cast has to go? I'm betting you won't like The Wiz, The Color Purple, or a lot of other films and plays with all-Black casts then, for the same reason.

Face it, you don't care about Black people.

slave2moonlight wrote:Well, I highly doubt a petition like that is going to encourage Disney to continue making films with black characters.

"Don't like the bone we throw you? Fine, no soup for you!"

I thought you were all for racial harmony? Now you're saying that Black people better accept whatever's given to them and like it, or they'll get nothing?

Yes ma'am, dem Negroes should sho' be glad massa gabe dem anythin' at all!

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

I've read all of the arguments on here and there are clearly some very delicate issues at stake here but does anyone really think Disney would be deliberately racist? What possible purpose would that serve for them?

They must take the concerns on board and address them but I just don't believe for a minute they would intentionally go out to upset or offend people or specific groups.

I hope that they can do this film in a way that satisfies everybody because it sounds like it could be great. It would be such a shame if it all ended in tears and controversy.

I think you have to accept the difficulty Disney face whenever they use a character from any race or background that isn't middle class and white because somebody, somewhere will always question the motives and wonder if there is tokenism. It seems to me they can't win. It's a damned if you don't, damned if you do scenario.

After reading the whole arugment including the letter, it seems like people trying to start the whole Jynx(a pokemon) controversaity. Since that had some uptight a-hole offended by a damn little pokemon's appearence looking black(which clearly isn't the case)

Just a-holes wants to pick on things and have nothing better to do.

Super Aurora wrote:After reading the whole arugment including the letter, it seems like people trying to start the whole Jynx(a pokemon) controversaity. Since that had some uptight a-hole offended by a damn little pokemon's appearence looking black(which clearly isn't the case)

Just a-holes wants to pick on things and have nothing better to do.

OK, so that's now 3 white folks totally dismissive of Black concerns, 2 sympathetic, and 1 sort of on-the-fence. Keep the comments comin', everybody!

PapiBear wrote: I thought you were all for racial harmony? Now you're saying that Black people better accept whatever's given to them and like it, or they'll get nothing?

Yes ma'am, dem Negroes should sho' be glad massa gabe dem anythin' at all!

The clearly racist attitude with which you have repeatedly attacked those who disagree with you does not help your case, PapiBear. Making statements implying that all people who don't agree with you are white-supremecist, southern slave-owners is nothing but another form of racism.

And, once again, don't put words in my mouth. You know that's not what I was saying. It's pretty clear that all you are doing is trying to pick a fight now.

PapiBear wrote:
OK, so that's now 3 white folks totally dismissive of Black concerns, 2 sympathetic, and 1 sort of on-the-fence. Keep the comments comin', everybody!

You clearly want people to choose sides, like you're preparing for a war or something. I want there to be no sides. And there are more beautiful shades in this world than black and white.

I feel after reading this "fight" that we all need to be reminded that this is talking about the frog princess, a MOVIE and that we all need to calm down. Hasn't anyone seen Bambi? You know when Thumper says "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it." I think that a few of us on this thread could take that to heart...

PapiBear wrote:
OK, so that's now 3 white folks totally dismissive of Black concerns, 2 sympathetic, and 1 sort of on-the-fence. Keep the comments comin', everybody!

You are a hypocritic. You hate when people dismiss black yet you feel it's ok to diss a white? This is why, dispite being friends with alot of open minded blacks people, I get a little annoyed when Blacks, whites, any ethnicity b*tch over petty little things that has no regard to the issue in the first place. They just love living in the past.

slave2moonlight wrote:

PapiBear wrote: I thought you were all for racial harmony? Now you're saying that Black people better accept whatever's given to them and like it, or they'll get nothing?

Yes ma'am, dem Negroes should sho' be glad massa gabe dem anythin' at all!

The clearly racist attitude with which you have repeatedly attacked those who disagree with you

Oh, this is really rich.

I take what you're saying and tell you how it plays on this end, and you call me a racist. It's clear you live in Fantasyland.