Page 7 of 8

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:11 am
by Timon/Pumbaa fan
Prince Eric wrote: I live on the one with intelligent humanoid beings. Which one do you live on? :wink:
Oh that explains it! You see, we live on a planet called "Earth"! :wink:
Timon/Pumba Fan - Just because a movie gains a larger fanbase is not indicative of good quality. That's common sense. You're really not making a point, just like you're not making a point making judgements on Meet the Robinsons BEFORE it has even started production. I do happen to have a source for past reviews all the way to 1939, and the archives of my UNIVERSITY library show that for the most part, all the films you mentioned recieved POSITIVE reviews. Scholarly research always beats hearsay factoids.
First of all, Meet the Robinsons has started production. I mean certainly something that is planned for a release date for March 2007 has already started production. As you would say, "Duh"!

Also, I would to see your University library review.

So does that mean Disney historians and George Lucas are liers? Also many people criticized Wizard of Oz for being in BOTH black and white AND color. Can you prove that wrong? Also both Braveheart and Citizen Kane were also criticized for its messages. Can you prove that wrong? The only one I can't find is "It's A Wonderful Life", so I'm right than wrong while your visa-versa.

Alice in Wonderland has grown a larger fan base, and it's considered a classic now, so your point on Chicken Little is once again lost.

Overall, the point I made is that A) I think time could tell and people would consider Chicken Little and Emperor's New Groove and Brother Bear great movies 50 years from now. B) Meet the Robinsons HAS started production and it's going good so far and that Disney doesn't need formulatic Pixar to keep them running.

2099net- Just read your last post, I agre COMPLETELY! :D

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:09 pm
by Harbinger
Sorry if this has been posted.

Zap2It:

'Gnomeo' Finds New Stage at Miramax

Miramax Pictures has rescued that animated musical "Gnomeo and Juliet," moving the Elton John-produced pic toward production.

The project, a version of Shakespeare's classic tragic romance set in the world of garden gnomes, was originally in development through Disney Feature Animation, but it was one of the early casualties when the Pixar swept through Disney.

John's Rocket Pictures is producing the film and John will write original songs with lyricist Tim Rice.

"I am very excited about working with Miramax," John says in a statement. "'Gnomeo' is an edgy concept and Miramax is the perfect home to push the envelope in animation."

The only vocal talent currently associated is four-time Oscar nominee Kate Winslet who will, we guess, voice Juliet.

Kevin Cecil and Andy Riley wrote the most recent draft of the script, working off an original concept -- something about a rivalry between indoor and outdoor gnomes -- by Rob Sprackling and John Smith.

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:18 pm
by Luke
Good news! So basically it's a division shift, since if I'm correct in my understanding, Miramax is basically just the art house division of Disney now that the Weinsteins have left town. A major division shift, but I'm glad the project isn't dead.

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:40 pm
by TheSequelOfDisney
So does this mean that Gnomeo and Juliet is back?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:45 pm
by Timon/Pumbaa fan
Well, I'm glad this film isn't dead.

But I must tell you, I'm not liking Disney as much before team Pixar moved in.

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:40 pm
by KinOO
Luke: Aren't Disney and Miramax ended their deal in the last months?

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:49 pm
by Paka
Good news? More like a real shame. >_<

I honestly don't understand what is in this film's premise that makes it sound remotely good. It seems to have proved it's got more lives than a cat by now, though. :roll:

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:11 pm
by Luke
KinOO wrote:Luke: Aren't Disney and Miramax ended their deal in the last months?
No, the Weinsteins, who were often associated with Miramax (for good reason - they basically answered to no one but themselves), have moved on and formed their own company. But Disney's kept the Miramax name and continued to use it sparingly mostly for foreign/quirky/obscure fare that doesn't get wide release. Like <i>Kinky Boots</i>, which opened today.

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:51 pm
by MickeyMousePal
Miramax just picked up Elton John's Gnomeo and Juliet.
Or should I say Sir Elton John... :roll:

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:21 pm
by Karushifa
2099net wrote: And being as Walt's films have been brought up, I would like to add

I find it impossible to believe people here can, in all honestly and with a straight face, proclaim that the characters in Chicken Little have less character development i.e. likability, charisma and overall personality than those in such films as Sleeping Beauty, Peter Pan (although to some extent Hook and Tinkerbell save Pan) or The Sword In The Stone.

And for some reason, the worst offender, a film filled with nothing but shallow, 2D stereotypes Sleeping Beauty is the highest regarded. Yes, I know the backgrounds are beautiful, I know the animation is stlyish and fluid. But come on people, the story, such as it is, could be told on the back of a postcard, and none of the expended running time for the movie adds a single speck of personality to the characters. This film is filled with some of the most boring animated characters ever to be commited to film. And even Maleficent, who somehow got to be the number one villain on UD's Villain Countdown has no clearly defined motive or plan. She's literally just evil because... well, in Sleeping Beauty you're just evil or good. Don't bother explaining the whys and wherefors, because the characters won't stand up to even the smallest bit of self-examination, being as they have nothing to examine.

Yet, Sleeping Beauty is a beloved "Animated Classic". I keep hearing Sleeping Beauty underperformed on release (which I'm not so sure about) but if it did, don't you think Walt may have got it wrong? All the effort expanded on the visuals, and almost nothing on the scripting? Even the at-first promising climax just fizzles out.

I know times have changed and audiences expect more these days, but even then, compared to Walt's earlier films, Sleeping Beauty was written strictly with the kindergarten in mind.

Why do I mention this? Because obviously the technique of a film can overcome such obstacles. The designs, the backgrounds, the animation and yes, perhaps even the 'scope aspect ratio combine to seduce the audience to ignore the dullness of the scripting.

It's one thing not to like the film, but to label it as a trainwreck, fit only for burning or waste of time, is clearly overstepping the bounds of proportion.
The most interesting perspective I've heard about Sleeping Beauty is that the animators put so much time and effort into making a film that was visually perfect, that they forgot to put as much effort into developing sympathetic and well-developed characters, not to mention a tight, gripping story. It took nearly eight years to make, from conceptualization to the theater, and yet was regarded by many as eye candy that lacked the heart that endeared so many to films like Cinderella and Dumbo. After Sleeping Beauty's extensive development process was rewarded with harsh reviews and a lukewarm box office total (it did not lose money on intial release but didn't make too much either), several animators and writers were laid off and the production process streamlined so that the time spent making films was used more efficiently. Naturally, not all of Walt's films were perfect, but he rarely made the same mistake more than once, if ever. He didn't want his studio going through the Sleeping Beauty development hell again, that much is certain.

As I understand it, Sleeping Beauty was plagued by many of the same problems that films like Dinosaur or (to cite an undisputably WDFA example so as to avoid nit-picking :wink: ) Atlantis were: an emphasis on visual style without equal regard to advancing methods of writing and character development. Films that engage the eye more than the heart, and are remebered more for flashy set-pieces than for memorable characters or story elements.

Now, I would argue that you CAN have you cake and eat it too: a film can be both visually stunning AND emotionally gripping. It just takes people who know how to balance the emphasis on these two elements. Disney has very successfully done this in the past, and Pixar has done it recently (there was so much buzz about seeing every little blue hair on Sully, but you still shed a tear when he tucks in Boo). So I'd say, between the two of them, someone should be able to work something out, and nothing need be compromised.

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:06 am
by 2099net
All of that is all well and said Karushifa, but it doesn't explain why Sleeping Beauty is so well-recieved today and why a - quite frankly (plot wide) rather trivial character like Maleficent can win a UD Countdown. If anything, it proves all these people who continue to say "the story is what's important" wrong.

And you say recent WDFA films have been lacking character development, but I honestly cannot see that. Some have been a little bland, such as Fish Out of Water (comic relief), Kenai (who basically became a straight man, but still had an "arc"), and Pacha (who again was basically a straight man, but it was a role/character type needed for the film).

Outside of those, I think we've had some of the strongest character development from Disney yet - from say Mulan onwards. Mulan was the first film which took the time to actually craft a multi-dimensional character to the main character. Compare Mulan with Aladdin and there's a world of difference.

All the films since (except Fantasia 2000 ;) ) have strong leading characters, yes, even Atlantis. That film's biggest failing character wise is Princess Kida. Buy Milo is a good character who visibly evolves as the film progresses. Vinny and the Mole are wonderful creations, and even Rourke betrayal is nicely played (and unexpected). How can you say Atlantis had no character development. It had, more development than most other Disney films up to that point. People grow, decieve others, turn on each other. And yet there's still room for comedy creations. I accept the Mole, for example may grate with some people, but, you know, I never really liked Robin Williams as the Genie in Aladdin. I just kept waiting for him to shut up for a few seconds. He was great in small doses, but way too exposed in the film.

You can't mistake Kuzco with another Disney character, or Chicken Little, or Maggie from Home on the Range. They are all unique, different and clearly thought through.

As for Treasure Planet is has the best scripted, most emotive and multi-dimensional "villian" of them all in John Silver. And talking of villains, Yzma is just as strong - if not stronger - than the bulk of Disney Villains, as is Hades. Clayton and Alameda Slim maybe smaller villains with smaller goals, but at least their goals are defined and logical.

If anything problem isn't lack of character development, it's too much character development. I find, as with a lot of things, people don't really want what they ask for. They're just throwing using the words because they sound good. As an older viewer, I find it all very dishearting and too some extent depressing. In not picking on you Karushifa, but I'm talking about in general.

They say they want good stories, but they reject complex plots, character interplay and revelations like Atlantis, and settle for rehashes of the generally familiar. Atlantis isn't the greatest film ever, but it's by far the worst. It tries something new, and succeeds and fails at the same time. If you compare it to a "Summer Blockbuster", which is basically what it is - just in an animated form - it compares incredibly well with the vast majority of similar releases before, and since. As champions of animation as an art form, we should have been supportive... and who knows, learning from Atlantis, Disney's next attempt at an animated adventure could have been outstanding.

They say they want character development, but turn away from Kenai's development from lazy human to responsible "parent", saying "it misses something". I'm not picking on Monsters, Inc., but did Scully or Mike actually change at all during the film? The only development we got was a short lived falling out. Other than that, Mike was the likable by wacky one, and Scully was the likable but sensible one (aka. the straight man).

As for originality, the demand most people want, they turn away from it, even before seeing the film in question. How many people automatically decided they didn't like Home on the Range before seeing a single frame? "A film about cows capturing a criminal for the bounty to save their farm? How stupid. Disney must be on drugs." HOTR isn't the only example though. Treasure Planet ("Treasure Island in space? WTF?") is another. (although I think "Robin Hood with animals?" is a much bigger WTF concept myself). As is too some extent The Emperor's New Groove was rejected by the public too. (No doubt because of its Disney ties. I'm positive the film would have been more successful had it been a Dreamworks film for example).

True, Home on the Range was a huge disappointment (sorry Ichabod) but there's a reason for that, beyond even the sad sorry story of management tinkering behind the scenes. It's because originality is always fine balance between hitting or missing. If originality was always such a winner for the studios, why do we have to suffer from endless remakes, reimaginings and sequels?

So when people say they want a good story, they appear to mean a fresh retread of an old one. When they say they want character development, they want funny characters who don't really change but have witty conversations with each other, and when they say they want originality, they mean the same as what they want for a good story.

So how can Disney win? Rehash too much and they get slammed for doing the same old thing. Do something new, and they get slammed for not making a "Disney" film.

Disney have been trying to please their critics. They have been trying to genuinely expand the genre of animation. They have been trying to travel down different paths. Last time Disney was in competition, they resorted to their musical roots (so much for originality eh?), this time, rightly or wrongly, they have attempted to have another form of ressurection.

Perhaps rightly, because even now some critics lambast Disney for making films to similar to their biggest hits. I mean, was Brother Bear really a copy of The Lion King at all? It was totally different, their wasn't even a villain in Brother Bear but lots of critics still accused Disney of "copying their highest grossing film for easy money" :rolleyes:

Or they complained about Phil Collins doing the songs again, after Tarzan. Odd, nobody complains about Randy Newman at Pixar. Doesn't they tell you how hard Disney has to work to come up with something acceptable?

I see you like Studio Ghibli films. As good as they are, do you think for that a Western audience would repond positively to a Disney animated Spirited Away or, heaven forbid a Disney animted Grave of the Fireflies? I would wager that they wouldn't - even if the story and the characters were exactly the same. The Disney name just has too much baggage, history and expectations.

They are, quite frankly, in an impossible situation, and nothing will please the critics.

And trust me, if Cars, which is already attracting some critical malaise, and concequently is going into hype overload and damage limitation, isn't a huge departure from the "safe" Buddy Movie formula Pixar specialises in, the same could happen to Pixar too.

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:02 pm
by Prince Eric
Timon/Pumba fan wrote:First of all, Meet the Robinsons has started production. I mean certainly something that is planned for a release date for March 2007 has already started production. As you would say, "Duh"!

Also, I would to see your University library review.

So does that mean Disney historians and George Lucas are liers? Also many people criticized Wizard of Oz for being in BOTH black and white AND color. Can you prove that wrong? Also both Braveheart and Citizen Kane were also criticized for its messages. Can you prove that wrong? The only one I can't find is "It's A Wonderful Life", so I'm right than wrong while your visa-versa.

Alice in Wonderland has grown a larger fan base, and it's considered a classic now, so your point on Chicken Little is once again lost.

Overall, the point I made is that A) I think time could tell and people would consider Chicken Little and Emperor's New Groove and Brother Bear great movies 50 years from now. B) Meet the Robinsons HAS started production and it's going good so far and that Disney doesn't need formulatic Pixar to keep them running.

2099net- Just read your last post, I agre COMPLETELY! :D
Again your extremely dellusional and not making much sense. Just because ONE critic or a GROUP of critics even, did not like a movie, doesn't mean that CRITICS as a whole hated it. Duh. All of thsoe movies you mentioned, on the whole, got positive to mixed reviews. Again, most were ahead of their time. Chicken Little was BEHIND the times. There's a world of difference. Get it straight. :wink:

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:16 pm
by Timon/Pumbaa fan
[quote="Prince Eric"][/quote]

Wow!

I was reluctantly going to read Prince Eric's thoughts, only to find out, he just quoted me and then left NO comments to be read! Huh! I guess he finally decided to stop! :P

Oh and Eric, just so you know, the trailers for MTR is up! Personally, I think it looks better than 5 of the Pixar films!

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:21 pm
by Luke
Timon/Pumba fan wrote:Oh and Eric, just so you know, the trailers for MTR is up! Personally, I think it looks better than 5 of the Pixar films!
Its trailer looks better than trailers for 5 of the Pixar films? Or are you actually ranking the film based on its 1-minute trailer next to the final Pixar films? Either way.... :brick: That's only a step above dismissing a project based on a brief unofficial reported premise.

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:39 pm
by Prince Eric
Actually, I made a mistake in the typing, and it's right there in your post as a quote. Yeah, I totally agree with Luke in that it's hard to base anything off of a 1-minute trailer. :wink:

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:17 pm
by Timon/Pumbaa fan
Prince Eric wrote:Actually, I made a mistake in the typing, and it's right there in your post as a quote.
Wait you made a mistake! :o I thought you didn't make mistakes!

And you said your life was really important! rotfl

Luke- Well, I have to see it for myself to make a final opinion on it. Though, just from what we have, I gotta say, I can't blame Jim Hill's friends for loving it so much.

Also, just compare it to Cars. Meet the Robinsons looks incredible original while it also combines it with the traditional Disney touch.

Cars looks just like your typical Pixar film.

Though of course both of these films aren't out yet, and will see both in theaters, but as you can see, you know which on I'm deciding to support with this deal. :wink:

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:21 pm
by Prince Eric
Timon/Pumba fan wrote:
Prince Eric wrote:Actually, I made a mistake in the typing, and it's right there in your post as a quote.
Wait you made a mistake! :o I thought you didn't make mistakes!

And you said your life was really important! rotfl

Luke- Well, I have to see it for myself to make a final opinion on it. Though, just from what we have, I gotta say, I can't blame Jim Hill's friends for loving it so much.

Also, just compare it to Cars. Meet the Robinsons looks incredible original while it also combines it with the traditional Disney touch.

Cars looks just like your typical Pixar film.

Though of course both of these films aren't out yet, and will see both in theaters, but as you can see, you know which on I'm deciding to support with this deal. :wink:
Everyone makes mistakes - that's part of being human (solidifying the fact that I'm the normal one, here :wink: .)

Also, how do you know it has "the traditional Disney touch" without looking at it? Also, I don't think there is a "typical" Pixar film. Only nit-pickers can lay claim to Pixar formula, as if Disney didn't have their own during their respective Golden Ages. :roll:

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:30 pm
by Timon/Pumbaa fan
Prince Eric wrote: Also, how do you know it has "the traditional Disney touch" without looking at it? Also, I don't think there is a "typical" Pixar film. Only nit-pickers can lay claim to Pixar formula, as if Disney didn't have their own during their respective Golden Ages. :roll:
Well, the film is about a 12-year old boy who invents a machine to find his lost family. In other words, it's about an orphan, something Disney has touched on since Snow White.

As for Pixar films, personally, the only true original Pixar film imo is Toy Story. It was created in an original world with original characters with original technology.

Toy Story 2 is basically a sequel. Monster's Inc. rehashes Toy Story in several elements. Finding Nemo just uses LOTS of stuff used in the pervious 3 Pixar films.

While yes, you got A Bug's Life and The Incredibles, ABL was a standard, "Seven Samurai" while TI took everything from Fantastic Four to X-Men to True Lies to Return of the Jedi to Spy Kids!

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:39 pm
by Prince Eric
Timon/Pumba fan wrote:
Prince Eric wrote: Also, how do you know it has "the traditional Disney touch" without looking at it? Also, I don't think there is a "typical" Pixar film. Only nit-pickers can lay claim to Pixar formula, as if Disney didn't have their own during their respective Golden Ages. :roll:
Well, the film is about a 12-year old boy who invents a machine to find his lost family. In other words, it's about an orphan, something Disney has touched on since Snow White.

As for Pixar films, personally, the only true original Pixar film imo is Toy Story. It was created in an original world with original characters with original technology.

Toy Story 2 is basically a sequel. Monster's Inc. rehashes Toy Story in several elements. Finding Nemo just uses LOTS of stuff used in the pervious 3 Pixar films.

While yes, you got A Bug's Life and The Incredibles, ABL was a standard, "Seven Samurai" while TI took everything from Fantastic Four to X-Men to True Lies to Return of the Jedi to Spy Kids!
Again, that's why I said "nit-pickers." :wink: THere is no such thing as a completely original movie, so derivations are only normal. Pixar takes "used elements" (if we want to play by your lense of focus, one that I don't agree with) and turns them into beautiful stories. Those movies get nominated for Best Original Screenplay not because of their stories, but because of the wonderful dialogue employed and the unbelievably cohesive narrative storytelling. Even Pixar's most biggest dissidents still have to give props to the sheer quality of the writer's scripts.

No one is saying the same about Disney for the exact opposite reasons. I seriously cringed when I heard the conversation between Chicken Little and his father, I rolled by eyes at the trite Native American-esque speech of Brother Bear, and I could not for the life of my understand, or care, about Atlantis: The Lost Empire's many "complex" plots.

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:16 pm
by Timon/Pumbaa fan
Before I "close' this arguement on this thread, I just want to say, that I agree with 2099net when he says the Walt films are sometimes less impressive than the recent ones.

I'd take the father/son relationship anyday over the one with Cinderella/Godmother who just comes and helps her with a bouncy song. Just to go to a romance with even LESS relationship!

I'd also take it over the one in Finding Nemo which would just be a totally different arguement.

You may have found the Native Americans in Brother Bear trite, but can you say with a straight face it was worse than the ones in Peter Pan?

Personally, I would call Atlantis the weakest Feature Animation film on the 21st century, so I don't really defend that film too much, but I still like the whole conflicts much better than Alice in Wonderland where there is basically no conflict. Heck, there's not even a real story, it's just an excuse to show some unique animation and tell several funny 1-liners.

So while Chicken Little may be "behind it's time" I still think it can have a chance to be remembered for something. Heck, a lot of movies behind their time have still remained successful and beloved. So I think modern Disney films can still get hugely successful. Just give it time.

Also, I actually do like Pixar, I may hate Finding Nemo for loads of reasons, but I like most of Pixar's films. I just think they're overrated, and they really don't need to judge Disney on their films since Disney has shown more originallity than Pixar imo.