DVDizzy Forum

2099net wrote:[...] The only thing which Pinocchio does do to save Gepetto is come up with the idea of smoking themselves out of Monstro after smoking at Pleasure Island - but... but... that means, Pinocchio's trip to Pleasure Island was - in story terms - beneficial. Not only do you seem to have no problem with a two day old child learning how to smoke themselves out of a whale (where you seem to have problems with him potentially learning other stuff - or at least "cottoning on" a little more), but how does that square up to the "moral" of the story that he shouldn't have gone there in the first place. Without going, Pinocchio and company would just be left to rot in the whale. So even the moral message is unclear and muddled, because it's generally accepted inside the film itself, Pinocchio shouldn't be at Pleasure Island and shouldn't be smoking etc.

Wait, wait, wait... Where did you get the idiotic idea that somehow Pinocchio smoking a sigar at Pleasure Island is connected with making Monstro sneeze by making a fire??? That connection makes no sense at all. No wonder you think it's a bad film, when you make up far-fetched theories by yourself that have nothing to do with the actual movie. The fact that Pinocchio doesn't hesitate for a moment to go rescue his father, dives into the ocean and risks his life *is* his development. Up until that point, all he had ever done was thinking of himself. He never cared how Gepetto would feel if he didn't come home from school; that's why he went with Stromboli and Pleasure Island. That last place is Pinocchio's wake-up call: there he sees what happens with boys who do bad things and only think of themselves. That's why he goes on a dangerous mission to save Gepetto.

2099net wrote:So most of this comes down to me using a mild swear word?

No, it comes from the whole attitude and behavior. Please, don't insult me by playing dumb.

Of course I didn't read the rest of your endless blabbering.

So you're telling me the naive boy, who's only 2 days old, and who doesn't even know what fire and smoke is the day before (remember he sets his hand on fire) happens to 'know' that lighting a fire inside the whale will make him spit the boat out, WITHOUT the experience of he himself smoking and feeling sick as a result?

And then you say that's the idiotic idea? That it makes no sense at all? Of course it's related to his time on pleasure island. You tell me than how Pinocchio would have had the idea otherwise.

It has no relation. You are the first one in history to dream up this connection. Please enjoy your little fantasy, as it gives you yet another non-sensical reason to trash a masterpiece.

Goliath wrote:Of course I didn't read the rest of your endless blabbering.

Of course anything you type is naturally of greater importance and should never be viewed in this manner.

They guy just wants to make an opinion and you resort to the lowest common denominator? Should I respect your posts more because you act this way?

Goliath wrote:It has no relation. You are the first one in history to dream up this connection. Please enjoy your little fantasy, as it gives you yet another non-sensical reason to trash a masterpiece.

Oh, well I see you successfully managed to explain the logic otherwise. Oh, wait, you haven't have you? You just totally ignored the question.

The whole idea of storytelling is [almost] everything has a cause and an effect. Are you saying Pinocchio doesn't have this storytelling now, because that's been my argument to a lesser degree which started this whole discussion?

Why do you think they show Pinocchio's hand catching on fire at the start? It serves two purposes, it shows he can't really be trusted to be safe in this new world he has been born into. But is also acts as foreshadowing the climax in the whale. Plus, what does Strombolli threaten which frighten's Pinocchio so much - to be chopped up and made in to firewood. Both events are included in the film because they basically teach Pinocchio about fire - wood burns.

What does Pinocchio do on the boat in the whale? He chops/smashes wooden objects up into FIREWOOD.

I've already explained about the tobacco. But why was tobacco smoking one of the big "don'ts" on Pleasure Island?

Smoking in 1940 wasn't the taboo subject it is today. If according to reports 20% of teenagers in the Western World were smoking in 2002 (after all sorts of legal attempts to ban sales) I'm pretty sure a higher percentage smoked in 1940, before all the health warnings and research. There's not specifically any advertising from that age aimed at children directly, but in the 1940's there was very little advertising aimed at children for anything; they didn't have the spending/pester power. But there is lots of advertising aimed at families, sponsorship of family shows on the radio and family events such as town carnivals etc. - and don't forget even in the 1960's America was comfortable with The Flintstones advertising tobacco. I'm not saying in 1940 America children were encouraged to smoke, but I doubt it was the big social no-no it is today.

So I suspect (but I admit I'm assuming) the fact that the film shows lots of boys eagerly grasping and grabbing cigars is more of a warning against 'greed', 'you don't get anything for nothing' as such, rather than a specific message not to smoke at all.

So of course it's all tied up. Why on earth would somebody write the climax to the story which required the self-same knowledge Pinocchio had acquired throughout the film? Why write that knowledge into the film. That's why the fundamentals of the story are fine and correct (something I've always argued, I've only quibbled over the lax mechanisms and details of the transitions in general).

So it would appear that we've done a bit of a 180 degree flip for the purposes of this aspect of the argument. I don't believe I'm actually defending the logic of the story after I was so critical of it before!

2099net wrote:Oh, well I see you successfully managed to explain the logic otherwise. Oh, wait, you haven't have you? You just totally ignored the question.

I always ignore nonsensical, irrelevant questions. Why should I put a lot of effort into a response to something which, to me, is obviously a non-issue? Pinocchio smokes at Pleasure Island. There is no connection with Monstro. Because if there was: where at Pleasure Island does Pinocchio learn that making a fire would make a creature the size of Monstro sneeze?????????????????! So no, I'm not going into a non-debate.

Flanger-Hanger wrote:Of course anything you type is naturally of greater importance and should never be viewed in this manner.

Of course.

Flanger-Hanger wrote:They guy just wants to make an opinion

And I am deprivig him of his ability to do so... how...?

Flanger-Hanger wrote:and you resort to the lowest common denominator?

Okay, I don't even know what you mean here. Nor do I care, by the way.

Flanger-Hanger wrote:Should I respect your posts more because you act this way?

I don't care. Do as you please.

I'm getting the strangest case of deja vu. It's almost like Prince Eric* has returned.

Anyway, this isn't related to the whole "story and logic and everything else" discussion, but for anyone who still hasn't picked up Pinocchio on DVD, Target has it (along with a few other Disney titles, including the single-disc Bolt) for $13.99 this week.

albert

*a UD member, not the TLM character.

Who was Prince Eric? Do you mean sprince?

Brender wrote:Who was Prince Eric? Do you mean sprince?

No. No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no...no. Prince Eric is not the same as Sprince. No. No.

(Barney Stinson then walks in)

Barney: Really? Sixteen "no's"? Really?

(he then leaves)

Prince Eric was a UD member who left in 2006, and was actually in my WTF series three times (but that still doesn't beat the five WTF's that Alan has). I won't say much else about him, as there are some members here who were his friends (well, I haven't seen them post that much in the past year or so, so they likely left too). But he was known for getting into huge arguments with lots of members (mainly dvdjunkie, Timon/Pumbaa fan, Lazario, and anyone who disagreed with his take-it-as-Gospel opinions).

If I had to choose which I'd rather have return between Sprince or Prince Eric, I'd go for Sprince. And given just how often I argued with Sprince...that says a lot.

albert

We need some kind of Bio/info page for past UD members Scaps. Some kind of thread to see the people who made this site's history.

*wishes Prudence would return so she wouldn't need to be on such a list*

Wow. He sounds like, uh, quite the personage. I kinda miss sprincey, he was fun in the sense that he's like arguing with six-year-old with the brain of a parrot.

We need like a hall of fame in general, complete with our hall of past members and hall of shame.

What happened to Prudence, anyhow?

SpringHeelJack wrote:What happened to Prudence, anyhow?

And Anthony too for that matter.

I haven't been here long enough to actually know these people, so I'm up for a list.

Wire Hanger wrote:We need some kind of Bio/info page for past UD members Scaps. Some kind of thread to see the people who made this site's history.

Well there is the The Missing UltimateDisney.com Forum Members List, but it hasn't been updated since April 2007 (iccy updated it on page 13, instead of Luke on page 1). But that's more about people who are missing and we don't know why rather than a bio/history page.

Brender wrote:Wow. He sounds like, uh, quite the personage.

To give you an example of how an argument might go...

Prince Eric: It is my opinion that the sky is green.

Someone Else: But anyone can see that it's blue!

Prince Eric: Your opinion is flawed and inaccurate because you're not as informed as I am about these things. The sky is green because I say it is. I've read countless reviews from sky critics and saw many skies, perhaps more than you have in your entire lifetime.

Someone Else: Um...a sky is a sky. Just go outside and look up. You'll see a blue sky. Every part of the world, you'll see a blue sky on a clear day.

Prince Eric: Blah blah blah blah blah. Just because you see it as blue doesn't mean it's blue. It's green, duh! Any reputable sky critic can tell you that what appears blue is really a green! But just because I read and follow every critic in the world doesn't mean I agree with them. Especially since their opinion is not as valid as mine is.

Steven Spielberg: I say the sky is blue.

Prince Eric: Stevie, you know I have a huge respect for you and your films. But when I say the sky is green, you have to agree, it is green.

Steven Spielberg: (humouring him) Okay...the sky is green.

Prince Eric: See?

Of course, Steven Spielberg never came in to chime his opinion, but you get the idea.

Brender wrote:We need like a hall of fame in general, complete with our hall of past members and hall of shame.

I'm sure not many would be keen on the Hall of Shame (unless they're banned and can't say otherwise *cough*UncleEd, PapiBear, princesssnowbunny*cough*), and Hall of Fame might seem rather excluding to members. What if Joe Bob Denton has been a member since June 2003 but isn't as well known as Bob Joe Tonden, who joined in November 2007? Yet Bob Joe gets in the hall of fame while Joe Bob just sits in the corner and broods. Then again, longevity shouldn't be a factor into a hall of fame kind of thing anyway.

albert

I remember UncleEd and PapiBear, but princessnowbunny is new to me. What got her kicked outa her castle (and UD of course)?

As far as talking about Sleeping Beauty, something I’ve always liked about Disney’s version is that Phillip and Aurora meet when they’re young, and they’re promised to be married when they’re older…I think that that’s a neat story twist, since they do end up falling in love and get married.

And I just wanted to defend Netty’s theory about Pinocchio’s learning to smoke on Pleasure Island and using smoke to get out of Monstro- I don’t think I ever put the two ideas together, but it makes perfect sense to me.

Escapay wrote:I'm getting the strangest case of deja vu. It's almost like Prince Eric* has returned.

Somehow I get the feeling that's not a compliment.

*reads further along*

And am I 'Prince Eric' in this analogy?

*reads further still*

Naaah... I can't be THAT bad.

I decided to make a response vid to Meaghan Martin's Wish Upon A Star hope a few people enjoy this

Wish Upon A Star: Pinocchio wishes upon a star and has the adventure of a lifetime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5rA3NgCd-4

I have encountered Prince Eric's posts in many older threads, and I agree with the statement that he is quite the, uh, character. And I was, unfortunatly, around at the height of PapiBear's attacks.

I wasn't around when any of these Trolls were. Sounds like there were some pretty interesting times to be had on UD.