Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:04 pm
Yeah, I just noticed how she changed he whole avatar and signature.
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I know the reasons for his naivety, but it doesn't mean I have to like him. Where is stands out the most is in his second encounter with Honest John. He's spent the past few minutes wailing about how he got himself into his mess with Stromboli, how he should have listened to his conscience, and then he does exactly the same thing again, with barely a question or second thought. That's not naivety, that's just stupidity.blackcauldron85 wrote:He hasn’t had different life-stages; he didn’t go through being an infant and bonding with his father, he didn’t go through the Terrible Twos stage, and he didn’t even go to preschool or kindergarten. I don’t really know what age Pinocchio is supposed to be, in boy years (probably somewhere between 6 & 8 years old?), but he just hasn’t had the life experience a normal boy of his age has had, and the only lessons he really was exposed to were to follow his conscience, don’t lie, and go to school. That should be reason enough for his naivety, right? I mean, the majority of people (and animals) he encounters are out to exploit him, to hurt him, to just be mean to him. He hasn’t had the life experience to deal with this. Sure, one could argue that he was told not to do certain things, but he did them anyway. Sure, he was told to follow his conscience, and he didn’t always listen to Jiminy; kids don’t always do what they’re supposed to do…this is realistic.
Well, Pinocchio does try to tell Honest John that he can't go to Pleasure Island, and when Honest John gives him his "ticket", Pinocchio shakes his head and tries to hand it back. Then at the end, Honest John & Giddeon pick him up and carry him off, so he did try to get out of it at first, but then I always found it weird that once he's on the coach, he's all excited to go.2099net wrote:I know the reasons for his naivety, but it doesn't mean I have to like him. Where is stands out the most is in his second encounter with Honest John. He's spent the past few minutes wailing about how he got himself into his mess with Stromboli, how he should have listened to his conscience, and then he does exactly the same thing again, with barely a question or second thought. That's not naivety, that's just stupidity.
I agree with you about the newer films having more levels than Pinocchio. As far as what do I see now that I didn’t when I was younger, if nothing else, I have a more emotional connection; as I got older, I got more emotional. I didn’t watch Pinocchio as much as other DACs growing up, since I didn’t have it on video, so I can’t really give many examples besides just feeling more for Pinocchio. When he feels alone and sad (like in the birdcage), that just makes me sad. Not that I was heartless as a kid, but still, I feel more now.2099net wrote: What do you see now as an adult Amy, that you never saw as an infant in Pinocchio? I would hazard a guess either very little or nothing. It's not like The Little Mermaid or later Disney films. It doesn't have the multiple levels these films have.
I definitely think that that’s a good point. One must wonder if Gepetto gave Pinocchio detailed directions- we assume (or, at least I assume) that Pinocchio has never been to the school before; if Gepetto doesn’t show him how to get there, then Pinocchio must have an awesome memory to remember all the directions Gepetto gave him.2099net wrote: I'd give a reason Gepetto couldn't take Pinocchio to school himself. I mean, it's his first day at school, and his "father" didn't take him? It's a rather simplistic storytelling device, and not to be too blunt, it doesn't result in much sympathy for Gepetto's plight. Gepetto doesn't know about Jiminy Cricket. At the very least Gepetto could have sent Figaro to keep an eye on his "son". (Only for Figaro to fall foul of Honest John in some way later).
Well, to Gepetto’s credit, he has never parented before; I don’t know if parenting books existed back then. I definitely agree with you on the story demands Gepetto to be a not-so-attentive father.2099net wrote: Gepetto wants a child so badly, yet when he gets one doesn't parent him right just because the story demands it in order to work. Put Gepetto in a situation where he cannot be the parent he should be/wants to be and you'll not change the story, but make it stronger. Motivation and reactions would be stronger. Gepetto would be able to exhibit guilt as well as sadness. Pinocchio's experiences could be as much of a lesson for Gepetto as Pinocchio.
Same here.blackcauldron85 wrote:I agree with you about the newer films having more levels than Pinocchio. As far as what do I see now that I didn’t when I was younger, if nothing else, I have a more emotional connection; as I got older, I got more emotional. I didn’t watch Pinocchio as much as other DACs growing up, since I didn’t have it on video, so I can’t really give many examples besides just feeling more for Pinocchio. When he feels alone and sad (like in the birdcage), that just makes me sad. Not that I was heartless as a kid, but still, I feel more now.2099net wrote: What do you see now as an adult Amy, that you never saw as an infant in Pinocchio? I would hazard a guess either very little or nothing. It's not like The Little Mermaid or later Disney films. It doesn't have the multiple levels these films have.
Well, if you look at the scene again, you'd notice that no parent on-screen actually escorts their kids to school; they all send them off, no matter what.blackcauldron85 wrote:I definitely think that that’s a good point. One must wonder if Gepetto gave Pinocchio detailed directions- we assume (or, at least I assume) that Pinocchio has never been to the school before; if Gepetto doesn’t show him how to get there, then Pinocchio must have an awesome memory to remember all the directions Gepetto gave him.2099net wrote: I'd give a reason Gepetto couldn't take Pinocchio to school himself. I mean, it's his first day at school, and his "father" didn't take him? It's a rather simplistic storytelling device, and not to be too blunt, it doesn't result in much sympathy for Gepetto's plight. Gepetto doesn't know about Jiminy Cricket. At the very least Gepetto could have sent Figaro to keep an eye on his "son". (Only for Figaro to fall foul of Honest John in some way later).
True, but I also presume those children have been to school previously, and were not marionettes the night before.ajmrowland wrote:Well, if you look at the scene again, you'd notice that no parent on-screen actually escorts their kids to school; they all send them off, no matter what.
If I remember correctly, Hones John pretends to be shocked by the horrible treatment Stromboli gave Pinocchio, thereby cleaning up his own role. Then he and Gideon cheat Pinocchio on believing he's ill and needs a vacation to get better, and that's why he needs to go to Pleasure Island.2099net wrote:Where is stands out the most is in his second encounter with Honest John. He's spent the past few minutes wailing about how he got himself into his mess with Stromboli, how he should have listened to his conscience, and then he does exactly the same thing again, with barely a question or second thought. That's not naivety, that's just stupidity.
I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to answer it anyway. What I see now as an adult, is the darkness of the film; the fact that Pinocchio only encounters bad people; that everybody is out to trick him; that the villains never get punished. Just the overall realistic, mature tone of the film I didn't grasp as a kid.2099net wrote:What do you see now as an adult Amy, that you never saw as an infant in Pinocchio? I would hazard a guess either very little or nothing. It's not like The Little Mermaid or later Disney films. It doesn't have the multiple levels these films have.
Indeed. But you know the old saying "Fool me once..." Honest John may protest innocence but ultimately Pinocchio vowed to listed to JC more (that's Jiminy Cricket, not Julian Carter), and in the end, doesn't. It's still stupidity.Goliath wrote:If I remember correctly, Hones John pretends to be shocked by the horrible treatment Stromboli gave Pinocchio, thereby cleaning up his own role. Then he and Gideon cheat Pinocchio on believing he's ill and needs a vacation to get better, and that's why he needs to go to Pleasure Island.2099net wrote:Where is stands out the most is in his second encounter with Honest John. He's spent the past few minutes wailing about how he got himself into his mess with Stromboli, how he should have listened to his conscience, and then he does exactly the same thing again, with barely a question or second thought. That's not naivety, that's just stupidity.
And indeed, I praise the Darkness in my initial critisism. But I don't think that counts a multiple levels of storytelling - its still pretty flat. Just dark and flat.I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to answer it anyway. What I see now as an adult, is the darkness of the film; the fact that Pinocchio only encounters bad people; that everybody is out to trick him; that the villains never get punished. Just the overall realistic, mature tone of the film I didn't grasp as a kid.2099net wrote:What do you see now as an adult Amy, that you never saw as an infant in Pinocchio? I would hazard a guess either very little or nothing. It's not like The Little Mermaid or later Disney films. It doesn't have the multiple levels these films have.
You can see all the children running towards the school, so Pinocchio could just follow the other kids. Also, the town isn't too big, so it's not like he could get lost or anything. Plus he had Jiminy with him.ajmrowland wrote:Back on the school subject, This was still a time when parents couldn't wait to get their kids off to school. I feel certain that a kindergartener was either given directions, or went with an older sibling. Maybe the younger kids were given notes, too. It's all weird, but seems perfectly logical.
And the film does focus more on the main character, which is nice.
SpringHeelJack wrote:True, but Gepetto didn't know he had Jiminy with him. In my mind, any kid who lit himself on fire the night before playing with a candle then asked "Why?" until 4 AM should probably be taken to school by a parent, especially considering it was his first day, and 24 hours ago he was a hunk of wood.
Is it possible that Walt thought he was making these films for adults. He said "adults are just children grown up anyway". I think he believed he could find what appealed to all people.2099net wrote:I guess what I'm saying is... I know Walt talked about making his animated films for adults as well as children, but I really can't see much evidence of that in Snow White and Pinocchio.