DVDizzy Forum

Has Menken himself ever spoken about this? Could he have gone off the project willingly?

Sotiris wrote:So, just because other composers have been treated worse that somehow justifies Disney's behavior towards Menken? What kind of reasoning is that?

Seriously. Also, these other composers hadn't already done 6+ soundtracks for the company to be pushed over for someone whose never worked there. Nobody ever argued with the new guys not being incredibly good at what they do; that doesn't mean it's not a snub to Menken who had already wrote (I'm guessing) a moderate amount of material for the film for a long time. We were listening to "Love Can't Be Denied," what--three years ago?

Disney's Divinity wrote:Also, these other composers hadn't already done 6+ soundtracks for the company to be pushed over for someone whose never worked there. Nobody ever argued with the new guys not being incredibly good at what they do; that doesn't mean it's not a snub to Menken who had already wrote (I'm guessing) a moderate amount of material for the film for a long time.

Quite right.

qindarka wrote:Could he have gone off the project willingly?

No, he loves writing for Disney films.

Alan Menken wrote:Honestly, I don’t know what the studio wants to do next. I presume there will be some future projects for me to work on. I love doing that, I really do.

Source: http://movies.about.com/od/rapunzel/a/A ... erview.htm

qindarka wrote:Has Menken himself ever spoken about this?

He has discreetly expressed his disappointment at times.

Alan Menken wrote:Anytime someone brings me on to one of these projects they always go, "Do we want Alan Menken or not because I don't want this to sound like Beauty and the Beast" or "I don't want this to sound like Enchanted". At the same time, I'm a chameleon. So when I got involved, we all thought about how we can give this an original color.

Source: http://shaniwolf.com/interview-alan-men ... t-aladdin/

Alan Menken wrote:I think people have a tendency to think, 'He’s done it so much, I want to do something new and different. Why use the same person?' For me, there’s always the challenge of reinventing myself with each of these projects in a way that will support the director.

Source: http://movies.about.com/od/rapunzel/a/A ... erview.htm

Alan Menken wrote:Similarly for me this was a project in which, it happens a lot with me as I get older maybe - or maybe it's natural in one's career - but you're always proving yourself over and over again. I had to prove myself on Enchanted to Kevin Lima and I had to prove myself to these guys also.

Source: http://movies.about.com/od/rapunzel/a/A ... erview.htm

Q: For you as a composer, watching what's happened with movies, you're doing stage musicals and theatre now. Presumably, there must be a reason for that?

Alan Menken: I came from theatre, of course. But yes, right now, I have nothing in the pipeline for Disney.

Source: http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/725326/ ... _more.html


Here's what he said specifically about the Snow Queen:

Q: Do you still have plans for bringing a hand-drawn animated version of Hans Christian Andersen’s The Snow Queen to the big screen?

Alan Menken: It’s on the shelf. We had actually written that to be a live stage show at the Tokyo DisneySea park. John Weidman wrote the book, and Glenn Slater and I did the music and lyrics. It turned out to be a bit expensive, and then it was picked up as a possible animated film. In the aftermath of The Princess and the Frog, it was put aside. It’s not an easy story to tell, to be honest. It may yet come back, though. If Tangled does well, maybe we can revisit it. [...] I think prior to Tangled coming out, there’s been a lot of reevaluation at Disney: What do we want to do? What does this company stand for? And probably after Tangled there will be a re-reevaluation. Right now, I’m just thankful that they’re giving me something to keep me from being swallowed up by Broadway.

Source: http://www.ew.com/article/2010/11/24/al ... en-tangled

Disney's Divinity wrote:

Sotiris wrote:So, just because other composers have been treated worse that somehow justifies Disney's behavior towards Menken? What kind of reasoning is that?

Seriously. Also, these other composers hadn't already done 6+ soundtracks for the company to be pushed over for someone whose never worked there. Nobody ever argued with the new guys not being incredibly good at what they do; that doesn't mean it's not a snub to Menken who had already wrote (I'm guessing) a moderate amount of material for the film for a long time. We were listening to "Love Can't Be Denied," what--three years ago?

I didnt even know most of those even happened. goes to show how much talent matters.

And I dont mean that in a negative way. The replacements are very good composers.

I've made a list of how Disney has been mistreating Menken lately.

• Alan Menken was developing an animated musical of his own at Disney. When the studio went under Lasseter's administration, the project was cancelled.

• Alan Menken was originally set to work on The Princess and the Frog (then named The Frog Princess). Disney even issued a press release. He was later removed from the project in favor of Lasseter's favorite songwriter, Randy Newman. To add insult to injury, during press for the movie, the filmmakers said that Randy Newman was their first choice for the role.

• Although Disney-ABC initially picked up the musical TV series that would have incorporated original songs by Alan Menken and David Zippel, they later turned the project down for unknown reasons. The series was even loosely based on Menken's daughter.

• Although Menken worked on two incarnations of the Snow Queen tale (the stage version at Tokyo DisneySea and the hand-drawn animated film version), he was replaced when the project was revived as a CG animated film despite the fact that both film versions were helmed by the same director and involved the same creative team.

• Disney has not offered any film projects to Menken despite reportedly having more musicals in development. In particular, Clements and Musker's next film is going to be a musical with an estimated release date of 2015 or 2016. Menken was not asked to work on the project. Even if they didn't have any musicals in development, Disney could still have offered Menken to write the score for any of their film projects.

From what I read, Sotiris, I wouldn't be too surprised if Alan ends up quitting to work for another certain animation studio.

Nor would I blame him. Especially if the guys at Disney are going to be shitheads to him.

Pardon the language.

DisneyJedi wrote:From what I read, Sotiris, I wouldn't be too surprised if Alan ends up quitting to work for another certain animation studio

He's already working on a DreamWorks animated musical called Lidsville.

It's a pity about Menken. Perhaps Disney were responding to the criticism of his work in Tangled.

qindarka wrote:It's a pity about Menken. Perhaps Disney were responding to the criticism of his work in Tangled.

But the criticism was mostly regarding the lyrics, which are not Menken's work. I don't think this goes any further than Disney wanting to step away from the "formula". Menken is a big part of that formula. I doubt it's because of some sort of vendetta that Disney has against him. They aren't "mistreating" him on purpose. That said, it is unfortunate that he isn't currently involved with anything at Disney. I love his stuff.

qindarka wrote:Perhaps Disney were responding to the criticism of his work in Tangled.

I highly doubt that. Disney doesn't care about some fans' opinions on online forums and blogs. "I See the Light" was nominated for an Oscar and won a Grammy. The movie was a critical and commercial success. That's what matters to Disney.

SWillie! wrote:I don't think this goes any further than Disney wanting to step away from the "formula".

Musicals have a specific structure and they're bound to have certain similarities. I can't see how Frozen, Tangled, or The Princess and the Frog deviate significantly from the "formula". What do you perceive as formula, anyway?

SWillie! wrote:I doubt it's because of some sort of vendetta that Disney has against him. They aren't "mistreating" him on purpose.

I think that there's a misconception that just because Menken has been associated with the 90's Disney musical, he can't do anything new or different. They're wrong though. Menken is a very versatile artist who can write about anything in any musical vocabulary. His vast and diverse body of work is proof of that.

I also get the sense that Lasseter is not particularly fond of Menken's work.

qindarka wrote:It's a pity about Menken. Perhaps Disney were responding to the criticism of his work in Tangled.

Or maybe because Disney's audiences grew tired of Disney's animated musical movies since they prefer more modern types. Of course, Disney's, "Rapunzel (Tangled)," is modern, and did very well to gain wider audiences. Or maybe Alan Menken too does not appreciate Disney's title change from, "Rapunzel," to, "Tangled," which weakens his potential in writing music and songs for it (in other words, depression through Disney's marketing strategies). Just a theory.

Polizzi wrote:

qindarka wrote:It's a pity about Menken. Perhaps Disney were responding to the criticism of his work in Tangled.

Or maybe because Disney's audiences grew tired of Disney's animated musical movies since they prefer more modern types. Of course, Disney's, "Rapunzel (Tangled)," is modern, and did very well to gain wider audiences. Or maybe Alan Menken too does not appreciate Disney's title change from, "Rapunzel," to, "Tangled," which weakens his potential in writing music and songs for it (in other words, depression through Disney's marketing strategies). Just a theory.

I seriously doubt Menken would have been affected by that.

Maybe Menken was taken off of The Princess and the Frog because he was already working on Enchanted and Lasseter didn't want people thinking Disney was being repetitive?

Anyways, I hope they have Menken working on a later Disney movie soon, provided that Lasseter doesn't have a bias against him by then. I mean, Alan was one of the reasons Disney got back on top in the late 80 s to early 90s!

Hopefully he gets some awards and some praise for the work that he does on the DreamWorks feature and Disney crawls for him to come back.

DisneyJedi wrote:Maybe Menken was taken off of The Princess and the Frog because he was already working on Enchanted and Lasseter didn't want people thinking Disney was being repetitive?

Yeah, I remember that was one of the reasons given. Also, from an artistic and cultural standpoint, I also think it makes sense to have Randy Newman do the songs for The Princess and the Frog since he did grow up in New Orleans and thus would give some authenticity to the songs. I think his New Orleans heritage was another reason he was chosen. Besides, it's not like Newman hasn't done songs for animated films unrelated to Lasseter. He wrote the songs for James and the Giant Peach and Cats Don't Dance, after all (the latter of which I think has some of the best songs in any non-Disney animated musical).

It's also hard for me to be upset about Menken being replaced on Frozen, when the new songwriter is Robert Lopez, who in my mind has done to Broadway now what Menken and Ashman did back in the '80s with Little Shop of Horrors. Alan Menken is one of my favourite songwriters, but I like that Disney is going with a variety of songwriters for their musical. I'm still waiting for them to hire Marc Shaiman to write songs for a Disney animated feature.

Just, please, no Andrew Lloyd Webber. Sorry, just not a fan.

It would still be nice if Menken were to do the music for a Disney film occasionally, though. Of course, he hasn't been prolific for WDAS for years, with a 7 year gap between Hercules and Home on The Range and another 6 before Tangled.

@Sotiris: I think I only really started to associate Lasseter's influence over Menken's involvement (or lack thereof) with Disney around the time that he was replaced on TP&TF with someone Lasseter has had work on nearly all his films. Tbh, I think that's where my dislike for Lasseter (as a head of Disney) began, by treating Disney films as if they were Pixar--with even the prerequisite Newman attached. I know there will be plenty out there who will say Newman was the better candidate for the position because of his New Orleans background, yadda yadda, but Mermaid's soundtrack was far superior, for example, and I don't think Menken grew up in the Caribbeans.

Besides, Menken's work on Tangled has always, to me, been an expression of the directors. Didn't they say something about wanting to tone down how Broadway Menken might have made things? I think that was also a reason for cutting out a lot of "Mother Knows Best" from the actual film? That shows he does work towards the director's vision. Regardless of how I personally feel about Tangled's soundtrack, as you said, he did get a Grammy for "I See the Light," which shows he's still very capable. It would be one thing to try new composers now and again, but to snub completely someone who’s done good work for Disney for years? And clearly a musical will still be similar to the musicals of the ‘90s whether or not Menken is the one composing (and, even beyond the musical structure itself, Tangled didn't mind copying the '90s in most other ways--aping Ariel's design being the most obvious), so the break-with-formula excuse doesn't fly at all.

Is this what happened to the Sherman Bros.--being pushed off or ignored with projects for which they were fully capable (I mean, really, what would Menken know about writing a strong musical, considering 5 of the films he worked on with Disney have been taken to the stage. )--or did they just retire?

estefan wrote:Yeah, I remember that was one of the reasons given.

That was just rumors and hearsay. No reasons were given. In fact, they never acknowledged that Menken was ever attached to the project.

estefan wrote:Also, from an artistic and cultural standpoint, I also think it makes sense to have Randy Newman do the songs for The Princess and the Frog since he did grow up in New Orleans and thus would give some authenticity to the songs. I think his New Orleans heritage was another reason he was chosen.

A good songwriter doesn't have to have a specific cultural heritage or life experience to be able to write in various musical styles. Besides, both the setting of New Orleans and the songwriter were chosen by Lasseter.

estefan wrote:Alan Menken is one of my favourite songwriters, but I like that Disney is going with a variety of songwriters for their musical.

That's besides the point here. No one suggested that Menken should do every single musical. No one complained about the different songwriters used for The Lion King, Mulan, Tarzan, Kingdom of the Sun, Brother Bear.

Disney's Divinity wrote:It would be one thing to try new composers now and again, but to snub completely someone who’s done good work for Disney for years? And clearly a musical will still be similar to the musicals of the ‘90s whether or not Menken is the one composing (and, even beyond the musical structure itself, Tangled didn't mind copying the '90s in most other ways), so the break-with-formula excuse doesn't fly at all.

I fully agree.

Disney's Divinity wrote:Besides, Menken's work on Tangled has always, to me, been an expression of the directors. Didn't they say something about wanting to tone down how Broadway Menken might have made things? That shows he does work towards the director's vision.

Yes, that's very true. Here are some examples which illustrate exactly that.

Q: How was it working with directors Nathan Greno And Byron Howard on “Tangled”?

Alan Menken: Actually they were very hands on. They are younger and they had a strong vision of what they wanted. They actually forced me to go to places I haven't gone before, as far as the score is more live-action. The underscore that is. They were very concerned about wanting to keep the songs contemporary. They definitely guided me in a different direction.

Source: http://www.mediamikes.com/2011/01/inter ... an-menken/

Q: Presumably, the directors are respectful of your work?

Alan Menken: Respectful, yeah. And we're separated by at least 20 years of age. People want to establish their own ground. So, when you bring in the sort of ‘old master', that can be a little bit daunted. So, on the one hand they're respectful, and on the other they go, "No, Alan. We don't want that, we want this." And there are times I have to go [zips mouth].

There's a place in the movie where I had a concept for the score. We had initially had a song for the character Flynn. Where he sang a sea shanty. He was singing about what he wanted in his life and his father used to sing him this lullaby. So, it's a lusty sea shanty, then he sings it wistfully, and then later on, she sings it to him in a tender way. And the song got cut. Okay, fine.

But when we meet Flynn, I said I can almost see this being a Robin Hood moment and really going for that swashbuckling, big, thematic chase. And so, I wrote the cut that way, and the directors said, "Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. No, no, no, no, no, no, no."

There was a lot of nervousness, and there was a temptation to get defensive and say, "Guys, this is what we talked about." But instead I say "Sorry, I'll try it again...!"

Source: http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/725326/ ... _more.html

Alan Menken wrote:I also wanted to have an opening number for the prologue, have it sung as a story-song in a Cat Stevens tone, with incantation within it. But at the end of the day they wanted to stay with the traditional prologue.

Source: http://insidemovies.ew.com/2010/11/24/a ... n-tangled/

It's too bad about the shanty. The shanty sounds fantastic and very cool Aladdin/Sinbad feeling to it. Which Flynn pretty much is. That would suit Flynn, plus Zach Levi has a great voice. I would love to have a opening number too. Very chilling.

I would not blame Menkin for quitting Disney after Tangled. I know that he needed to keep up with Byron and Greno's vision, but if he was getting his ideas cut and if Lassenter is abandoning him for more compterary composers/song writers, that's their loss. Disney would lose ANOTHER legend like Chris Sanders, Brenda Chapman etc. because of snappy show business.